Judge Rules Megaupload Raid Illegal

[Suave Charlie]

Strawman fallacy? Fallacy fallacy. A fallacy suggests that supporting points are not logically connected to the conclusion, it says nothing about the conclusion. As for your conclusion, you have finally rationalized it enough to the point that I can agree with it. However, I still argue that this has no hidden power agenda.

Strawman: creating a simplified or distorted caricature of your opponent's argument, then arguing against that.
You said:

You claim that this misconduct shows that the United States is a power-hungry animal that craves world domination. I claim that it's misconduct.

That my friend is a straw man argument, my claim was overstepping it's bounds, the world domination was added there by you.

If you pay attention to American politics, you know that there are strong issues in the United States. But for your claim that the US is in great condition, do you remember that little insignificant $15,796,583,044,605.23 national debt? High. Priorities.

Another crazy thought: that resources can mean more things than simply money! If I'm a government then yes money would be a resource, but man-power is also a resource.
But I'll let that slide, okay, so there's the $15 tril of debt, that clearly means that all the lower courts should be closed and only the most absolutely vital of operations should continue. I mean that's the gist of everything you've been saying, The government can only to ONE thing and ONE thing ONLY.

Copyright law is heavily debated, but even then there are far more important laws to oppose. Recent laws against illegal immigrants have caused serious problems, and similar laws to the Arizona law are being proposed throughout several states. But I suppose that will have to wait, because Kim Dotcom was mistreated in New Zealand.

Top notch attempt at a reversal but nope, still pretty darn silly. The government, massive as it is can maybe, just maybe, do multiple things at once! It's not actually Obama himself that does it all, there's at least.. 4 other guys doing stuff aswell!
The government doesn't just allocate 1 day at a time for issues, Monday is healthcare, Tuesday is military etc. It can actually multitask like a pro.

True. However to prove this in court without extraditing the man would require them to pressure another country to bring him to trial. And once again, this man is a low priority.

Well the basis is that the US doesn't actually have jurisdiction over a company in a different country, so they need to trust that NZ will actually do their job and decide whether he's committed any crimes.

This reminds me of the UK student who had broken no English laws but the US still pushed to have him extradited.

 

[weirdee]

so, yeah, sure there are many, many issues in the world, but i think that doesn't mean you can just blow away procedure in such a flagrant manner, and that applies to everybody

you at least have to appear to be working above the table, and if you don't, that just makes it easier for the wrong outcome to succeed

 

[SextusMaximus]

It's like everybody's suddenly forgotten how blatantly illegal Megaupload was.

If a man stabs someone with a steak knife, do you prosecute whoever created the knife?

 

[Zaik]

I'm no legal expert, but doesn't this mean the hard drives and any information they contain are no longer legal evidence under any circumstances in a trial?

That's pretty much the entire basis of the case, seems like it's an easy win at this point.

 

[snowfi6916]

Strawman. I claim that the US has overstepped it's bounds in a copyright case, the US having a lobbying culture, it's not ridiculous in the least to postulate that this isn't entirely above board.

Strawman fallacy? Fallacy fallacy. A fallacy suggests that supporting points are not logically connected to the conclusion, it says nothing about the conclusion. As for your conclusion, you have finally rationalized it enough to the point that I can agree with it. However, I still argue that this has no hidden power agenda.

Now you may be alarmed to hear this, but the US has loads of resources, it's like it's one of the most powerful nations on the planet! What you've seemed to say is that just because other more important things occur each day then the minor ones shouldn't be granted time, am I reading that right?
The US has fervently been tackling copyright infringements over the past year or so and has been acting as a de facto enforcer for it for the media industries, looking after the big business interests where previously it would have more likely been civil suits brought by the businesses themselves.
After the absurd amount of lobbying that occurred with the SOPA debacle then it's not beyond the realm of possibility that this same tactic fueled the piracy crackdowns.

If you pay attention to American politics, you know that there are strong issues in the United States. But for your claim that the US is in great condition, do you remember that little insignificant $15,796,583,044,605.23 national debt? High. Priorities.

Copyright law is heavily debated, but even then there are far more important laws to oppose. Recent laws against illegal immigrants have caused serious problems, and similar laws to the Arizona law are being proposed throughout several states. But I suppose that will have to wait, because Kim Dotcom was mistreated in New Zealand.

Well now you're just being silly, "A man says some things about a group of men" Oversimplification helps no one.
And tut tut, where's that presumption of innocence? It's down to the US to prove he's guilty but to do so they need to follow the letter of the law.

True. However to prove this in court without extraditing the man would require them to pressure another country to bring him to trial. And once again, this man is a low priority.

You seem to be the kind of person that would say that all torrents are piracy and all torrent sites should be taken down, when in reality it is only illegal if the file itself is illegal.

The Humble Indie Bundle had downloads this year available through either direct download or Bit-torrent. The torrents were legit legal downloads. And the money goes to charity and game developers. Should we shut down the Humble Indie Bundle?

Blizzard also uses Bit-torrent to update WoW, Diablo 3, Starcraft 2, etc. Should Blizzard be shut down just because torrents have been linked to pirates?

Same thing here. Megaupload did have files that were illegal, but there were still a ton more that were legal, and they should have had no right to seize those legal files. At the very least, they should have been somehow returned to the owners.

 

[MyNameIsNowNotMyName]

The government doing illegal shit and forcing their law over the law of other countries is an actual problem no matter how you look at it.

You do not seem to understand how low this man is. It would be a stretch to consider him equal to a drug lord. To suggest that this is important enough to the United States that they would break the law for him is absurd.

Lets see.
Invasion of the middle east, laws that would affect the whole world in a negative way, requesting estraction of people who didn't break the law of the country (the guy in England), stealing evidence (if it wasn't allowed to be taken, it's theft)...
Well, it's not just 1 misconduct that shows this. It's rather the last half century that shows that.

The last half century? So then, in 50 years time you can only provide 4 ambiguous events. Well, we must have the best track record of any nation then. Unless of course you are dead wrong in this statement.

And if you're facing all those problems, why do you support them doing this shit instead of asking them to fix your own god damn problems? If you say we should overlook this, you are supporting them.

I am supporting that we fix our own problems. You, on the other hand, are demanding that the United States beat itself up because they acted in misconduct towards an owner of a website. We have high priorities, and you suggest that instead of giving our attention to these things, we should give all of our attention to a lowly criminal that may have been treated unfairly. It is absurd.

There is a HUGE difference between mean and illegal.

And no, your point doesn't stand. He is not a criminal until it's proven. To prove that, he needs to be brought before the law in a legal way. The law exist for a reason. I would really like to see how you would react if you were brought to "justice" from people who ignore the law. Would you be so open minded and forgiving in that case.

There is substantial evidence which has been shown publicly of obvious criminal offense from this man. Simply because he has not been tried (remember why the US is trying to extradite him?) does not clear him of this. Ironically, you seem to be opposing that the US extradite him for trial because the man has not been tried by the US. Do you see your error?

On the "may" have been treated unfairly part, I think your wrong, just W-R-O-N-G. I'm not saying we need to make giant steps, but we need to fix the mistakes law enforcement make down the ladder before we go up. People deserve fair treatment, misdemeanor or not.

 

[Strazdas]

Shoulda drone-bombed him, guys. That way you don't have to deal with these pesky "laws" and stuff.

yeah and they said "their sorry their drone "Went rogue" its experimental technology after all. get over it".

 

[ecoho]

ok this is going to be a broad statement to several people im too tired to quote.

1. If this guy did even half the shit they claim he should go to jail.
2. the US went about this the wrong way and while they may not have broke the law they surly skated it(they are aloud to hold any items as evidence for at least 6 month more if the items in question can be used to convict.)
3. If the US wanted this guy here we would have him here ether by diplimatic pressure or we would simply kidnap him.(one can be tried for a crime regaurdless if how he got to the state and/or country in which he is tried.)
4.If the US was power hungrey and decided to conquer the world well im sorry but the world at large would be screwed.

finally id like to close with this since people have said(or at the very least thought after reading this) that the US is oversteping its bounds, well were not. Now before you go "STUPID AMERICAN MUST DIE!" please thyink what would happent o the world if we withdrawed all our millitary back to our country. That means no US Navy fighting pirates(the sea kind) no peace keeping troops in trouble spots, and no reason for any of the other countries to play nice.

 

[Suave Charlie]

A load of stuff

1) Great, not your place to decide that though now is it.
2) Well that NZ judge seems to disagree with you here.
3) Yeah cause fuck the rules amirite. The US can just do what it wants and fuck everyone else.
4)Great, no one's saying this is going to happen, not sure why you are.

What you've said can be summarised as "We're the USA, we do whatever the fuck we want"

A lot of people are going to take exception to that.

How does your military influence have anything to do with the country targeting people out of it's jurisdiction? I have absolutely no idea what your thought process is here. And no, you're not the only reason countries play nice, I hope you sincerely don't believe that.

And how aren't the US overstepping? All you've done is say that you haven't and then make some weird non-sequitur about the US then going and taking their ball home cos the other kids wouldn't let them have free reign.

 

[Nielas]

I'm no legal expert, but doesn't this mean the hard drives and any information they contain are no longer legal evidence under any circumstances in a trial?

That's pretty much the entire basis of the case, seems like it's an easy win at this point.

That only applies in New Zealand and New Zealand was not gonna try him. A US judge might rule that misconduct by the New Zealand police does not make the evidence inadmissible in the US. The US warrants were probably much broader than the New Zealand one.

 

[ecoho]

A load of stuff

1) Great, not your place to decide that though now is it.
2) Well that NZ judge seems to disagree with you here.
3) Yeah cause fuck the rules amirite. The US can just do what it wants and fuck everyone else.
4)Great, no one's saying this is going to happen, not sure why you are.

What you've said can be summarised as "We're the USA, we do whatever the fuck we want"

A lot of people are going to take exception to that.

How does your military influence have anything to do with the country targeting people out of it's jurisdiction? I have absolutely no idea what your thought process is here. And no, you're not the only reason countries play nice, I hope you sincerely don't believe that.

And how aren't the US overstepping? All you've done is say that you haven't and then make some weird non-sequitur about the US then going and taking their ball home cos the other kids wouldn't let them have free reign.

first 3 is international law, they dont care how you get there once your there and yeah the people who di the kidnaping may face some charges they have to idintify them first and thats hard to do if you dont use names or any paper trail.(easy to do if you know how)

as for the rest not gonna sugar coat it, we can "just take are ball in go home" and that scares the crap out of the rest of the world. Which in turn alows us to do things other countries cant. Now this may be wrong that the US can do this but its the truth,***** and complain all you want it wont change the fact that the world needs the US more then it needs the world.

 

[Denamic]

They already tore MegaUpload down permanently, they don't need a conviction.

Also what's to stop them ignoring this ruling just like they ignored the one not to waltz in and take the drives?

With this amount of PR, he could make a come-back and the media will advertise for him.

 

[renegade7]

This is a step in the right direction but it's far from over.

 

[Wintermoot]

it,s really nice to see somebody stick it to the world police

 

[Suave Charlie]

first 3 is international law, they dont care how you get there once your there and yeah the people who di the kidnaping may face some charges they have to idintify them first and thats hard to do if you dont use names or any paper trail.(easy to do if you know how)

as for the rest not gonna sugar coat it, we can "just take are ball in go home" and that scares the crap out of the rest of the world. Which in turn alows us to do things other countries cant. Now this may be wrong that the US can do this but its the truth,***** and complain all you want it wont change the fact that the world needs the US more then it needs the world.

So the US is above the law? Gotcha.

But just to correct you, no the US needs the rest of the world just as much, you're putting your country on a dangerously high pedestal.

It's this sort of bullying behaviour that really does ruin the image of your country.

 

[BlueMage]

A load of stuff

1) Great, not your place to decide that though now is it.
2) Well that NZ judge seems to disagree with you here.
3) Yeah cause fuck the rules amirite. The US can just do what it wants and fuck everyone else.
4)Great, no one's saying this is going to happen, not sure why you are.

What you've said can be summarised as "We're the USA, we do whatever the fuck we want"

A lot of people are going to take exception to that.

How does your military influence have anything to do with the country targeting people out of it's jurisdiction? I have absolutely no idea what your thought process is here. And no, you're not the only reason countries play nice, I hope you sincerely don't believe that.

And how aren't the US overstepping? All you've done is say that you haven't and then make some weird non-sequitur about the US then going and taking their ball home cos the other kids wouldn't let them have free reign.

first 3 is international law, they dont care how you get there once your there and yeah the people who di the kidnaping may face some charges they have to idintify them first and thats hard to do if you dont use names or any paper trail.(easy to do if you know how)

as for the rest not gonna sugar coat it, we can "just take are ball in go home" and that scares the crap out of the rest of the world. Which in turn alows us to do things other countries cant. Now this may be wrong that the US can do this but its the truth,***** and complain all you want it wont change the fact that the world needs the US more then it needs the world.

You can't grow sufficient crops internally to support your population, you don't have the resources necessary internally to fuel your economy, you have little-to-no manufacturing capability.

Please tell me again how you need the rest of the world less than it needs you.

 

[Navvan]

I'm not exactly well informed on this topic so can someone care to explain how exactly he could "press charges against the U.S. Gov" or how this exactly this is the U.S. overstepping its bounds? From what I can tell it was the N.Z. police that implemented the raid and handed over the data to the U.S. Gov. Wouldn't the only liable party (from a legal standpoint) be the N.Z. police who implemented the illegal raid which was only illegal due to the methods the N.Z. police used? All the U.S. did was press charges/accusations and push for it which they had jurisdiction to do so due to servers in Virginia. I'm not saying they were right to do so (as I don't really think the Megaupload company was doing anything illegal themselves) but it isn't like the U.S. didn't have the cooperation of the N.Z. government or jurisdiction rights. Again I'm not super informed on this type of thing so I'm genuinely asking for clarification.

You can't grow sufficient crops internally to support your population, you don't have the resources necessary internally to fuel your economy, you have little-to-no manufacturing capability.

Please tell me again how you need the rest of the world less than it needs you.

First I'm not agreeing with the other dude. I am a firm believer that the U.S. is better off participating in the global economy and would suffer greatly if it were for some reason to withdraw. However...

We are a net exporter of agricultural products [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_the_United_States] which means we could feed ourselves

We have lots of natural resources compared to most other nations. In particular we have the largest coal deposits in the world, and have sizable deposits of most ores. It may not be enough to keep our industry going at the rate it currently does, but its not like it would grind to a halt.

We account for approximately 1/5th of the worlds manufacturing capability as of 2012. The largest manufacturing in the world. It represents about 1.6+ trillion in our 15+ trillion dollar yearly GDP. It would be the 8th largest economy in the world by itself [http://www.nist.gov/mep/upload/FINAL_NAM_REPORT_PAGES.pdf]. You don't see many of our goods on the shelf anymore because most of it tends to be high-end goods like gas turbines or computer chips instead of clothing or toys.

The United states represents about 21% of the world's GDP. A little less than the entire European Union. It is of major importance in the world economy, and the rest of the world would suffer massively if it were to "take its ball and go home". We would also suffer equally if not more so, but it isn't like we'd all starve and be unable to do anything for ourselves.

Now if you turn that into "We'll play ball with everyone else, except you particular country that doesn't do what we want" well that country is basically cut off from more than 1/5th of the world's productivity by itself. The U.S. also tends to make its allies follow suit, and well that's a major incentive to do what it wants. Every country (that can) does the same thing and its called an embargo. It is an extreme tool, but it is used in some cases like North Korea and Iran. Even then its usually only partial and not complete isolation.

Every nation looks after their own self interests. Every nation should look after their own interests. The U.S.A. just has the biggest club to do that in terms of political power due to the size of its economy and the position it has on the world stage. The only question is if they hurt their long term interests (such as political relations) by advancing short term interests. To which I agree that it sometimes does.