Judge Rules Megaupload Raid Illegal

[snowfi6916]

Strawman. I claim that the US has overstepped it's bounds in a copyright case, the US having a lobbying culture, it's not ridiculous in the least to postulate that this isn't entirely above board.

Strawman fallacy? Fallacy fallacy. A fallacy suggests that supporting points are not logically connected to the conclusion, it says nothing about the conclusion. As for your conclusion, you have finally rationalized it enough to the point that I can agree with it. However, I still argue that this has no hidden power agenda.

Now you may be alarmed to hear this, but the US has loads of resources, it's like it's one of the most powerful nations on the planet! What you've seemed to say is that just because other more important things occur each day then the minor ones shouldn't be granted time, am I reading that right?
The US has fervently been tackling copyright infringements over the past year or so and has been acting as a de facto enforcer for it for the media industries, looking after the big business interests where previously it would have more likely been civil suits brought by the businesses themselves.
After the absurd amount of lobbying that occurred with the SOPA debacle then it's not beyond the realm of possibility that this same tactic fueled the piracy crackdowns.

If you pay attention to American politics, you know that there are strong issues in the United States. But for your claim that the US is in great condition, do you remember that little insignificant $15,796,583,044,605.23 national debt? High. Priorities.

Copyright law is heavily debated, but even then there are far more important laws to oppose. Recent laws against illegal immigrants have caused serious problems, and similar laws to the Arizona law are being proposed throughout several states. But I suppose that will have to wait, because Kim Dotcom was mistreated in New Zealand.

Well now you're just being silly, "A man says some things about a group of men" Oversimplification helps no one.
And tut tut, where's that presumption of innocence? It's down to the US to prove he's guilty but to do so they need to follow the letter of the law.

True. However to prove this in court without extraditing the man would require them to pressure another country to bring him to trial. And once again, this man is a low priority.

You seem to be the kind of person that would say that all torrents are piracy and all torrent sites should be taken down, when in reality it is only illegal if the file itself is illegal.

The Humble Indie Bundle had downloads this year available through either direct download or Bit-torrent. The torrents were legit legal downloads. And the money goes to charity and game developers. Should we shut down the Humble Indie Bundle?

Blizzard also uses Bit-torrent to update WoW, Diablo 3, Starcraft 2, etc. Should Blizzard be shut down just because torrents have been linked to pirates?

Same thing here. Megaupload did have files that were illegal, but there were still a ton more that were legal, and they should have had no right to seize those legal files. At the very least, they should have been somehow returned to the owners.

 

[MyNameIsNowNotMyName]

The government doing illegal shit and forcing their law over the law of other countries is an actual problem no matter how you look at it.

You do not seem to understand how low this man is. It would be a stretch to consider him equal to a drug lord. To suggest that this is important enough to the United States that they would break the law for him is absurd.

Lets see.
Invasion of the middle east, laws that would affect the whole world in a negative way, requesting estraction of people who didn't break the law of the country (the guy in England), stealing evidence (if it wasn't allowed to be taken, it's theft)...
Well, it's not just 1 misconduct that shows this. It's rather the last half century that shows that.

The last half century? So then, in 50 years time you can only provide 4 ambiguous events. Well, we must have the best track record of any nation then. Unless of course you are dead wrong in this statement.

And if you're facing all those problems, why do you support them doing this shit instead of asking them to fix your own god damn problems? If you say we should overlook this, you are supporting them.

I am supporting that we fix our own problems. You, on the other hand, are demanding that the United States beat itself up because they acted in misconduct towards an owner of a website. We have high priorities, and you suggest that instead of giving our attention to these things, we should give all of our attention to a lowly criminal that may have been treated unfairly. It is absurd.

There is a HUGE difference between mean and illegal.

And no, your point doesn't stand. He is not a criminal until it's proven. To prove that, he needs to be brought before the law in a legal way. The law exist for a reason. I would really like to see how you would react if you were brought to "justice" from people who ignore the law. Would you be so open minded and forgiving in that case.

There is substantial evidence which has been shown publicly of obvious criminal offense from this man. Simply because he has not been tried (remember why the US is trying to extradite him?) does not clear him of this. Ironically, you seem to be opposing that the US extradite him for trial because the man has not been tried by the US. Do you see your error?

On the "may" have been treated unfairly part, I think your wrong, just W-R-O-N-G. I'm not saying we need to make giant steps, but we need to fix the mistakes law enforcement make down the ladder before we go up. People deserve fair treatment, misdemeanor or not.

 

[Strazdas]

Shoulda drone-bombed him, guys. That way you don't have to deal with these pesky "laws" and stuff.

yeah and they said "their sorry their drone "Went rogue" its experimental technology after all. get over it".

 

[ecoho]

ok this is going to be a broad statement to several people im too tired to quote.

1. If this guy did even half the shit they claim he should go to jail.
2. the US went about this the wrong way and while they may not have broke the law they surly skated it(they are aloud to hold any items as evidence for at least 6 month more if the items in question can be used to convict.)
3. If the US wanted this guy here we would have him here ether by diplimatic pressure or we would simply kidnap him.(one can be tried for a crime regaurdless if how he got to the state and/or country in which he is tried.)
4.If the US was power hungrey and decided to conquer the world well im sorry but the world at large would be screwed.

finally id like to close with this since people have said(or at the very least thought after reading this) that the US is oversteping its bounds, well were not. Now before you go "STUPID AMERICAN MUST DIE!" please thyink what would happent o the world if we withdrawed all our millitary back to our country. That means no US Navy fighting pirates(the sea kind) no peace keeping troops in trouble spots, and no reason for any of the other countries to play nice.

 

[Suave Charlie]

A load of stuff

1) Great, not your place to decide that though now is it.
2) Well that NZ judge seems to disagree with you here.
3) Yeah cause fuck the rules amirite. The US can just do what it wants and fuck everyone else.
4)Great, no one's saying this is going to happen, not sure why you are.

What you've said can be summarised as "We're the USA, we do whatever the fuck we want"

A lot of people are going to take exception to that.

How does your military influence have anything to do with the country targeting people out of it's jurisdiction? I have absolutely no idea what your thought process is here. And no, you're not the only reason countries play nice, I hope you sincerely don't believe that.

And how aren't the US overstepping? All you've done is say that you haven't and then make some weird non-sequitur about the US then going and taking their ball home cos the other kids wouldn't let them have free reign.

 

[Nielas]

I'm no legal expert, but doesn't this mean the hard drives and any information they contain are no longer legal evidence under any circumstances in a trial?

That's pretty much the entire basis of the case, seems like it's an easy win at this point.

That only applies in New Zealand and New Zealand was not gonna try him. A US judge might rule that misconduct by the New Zealand police does not make the evidence inadmissible in the US. The US warrants were probably much broader than the New Zealand one.

 

[ecoho]

A load of stuff

1) Great, not your place to decide that though now is it.
2) Well that NZ judge seems to disagree with you here.
3) Yeah cause fuck the rules amirite. The US can just do what it wants and fuck everyone else.
4)Great, no one's saying this is going to happen, not sure why you are.

What you've said can be summarised as "We're the USA, we do whatever the fuck we want"

A lot of people are going to take exception to that.

How does your military influence have anything to do with the country targeting people out of it's jurisdiction? I have absolutely no idea what your thought process is here. And no, you're not the only reason countries play nice, I hope you sincerely don't believe that.

And how aren't the US overstepping? All you've done is say that you haven't and then make some weird non-sequitur about the US then going and taking their ball home cos the other kids wouldn't let them have free reign.

first 3 is international law, they dont care how you get there once your there and yeah the people who di the kidnaping may face some charges they have to idintify them first and thats hard to do if you dont use names or any paper trail.(easy to do if you know how)

as for the rest not gonna sugar coat it, we can "just take are ball in go home" and that scares the crap out of the rest of the world. Which in turn alows us to do things other countries cant. Now this may be wrong that the US can do this but its the truth,***** and complain all you want it wont change the fact that the world needs the US more then it needs the world.

 

[Denamic]

They already tore MegaUpload down permanently, they don't need a conviction.

Also what's to stop them ignoring this ruling just like they ignored the one not to waltz in and take the drives?

With this amount of PR, he could make a come-back and the media will advertise for him.

 

[renegade7]

This is a step in the right direction but it's far from over.

 

[Wintermoot]

it,s really nice to see somebody stick it to the world police

 

[Suave Charlie]

first 3 is international law, they dont care how you get there once your there and yeah the people who di the kidnaping may face some charges they have to idintify them first and thats hard to do if you dont use names or any paper trail.(easy to do if you know how)

as for the rest not gonna sugar coat it, we can "just take are ball in go home" and that scares the crap out of the rest of the world. Which in turn alows us to do things other countries cant. Now this may be wrong that the US can do this but its the truth,***** and complain all you want it wont change the fact that the world needs the US more then it needs the world.

So the US is above the law? Gotcha.

But just to correct you, no the US needs the rest of the world just as much, you're putting your country on a dangerously high pedestal.

It's this sort of bullying behaviour that really does ruin the image of your country.

 

[BlueMage]

A load of stuff

1) Great, not your place to decide that though now is it.
2) Well that NZ judge seems to disagree with you here.
3) Yeah cause fuck the rules amirite. The US can just do what it wants and fuck everyone else.
4)Great, no one's saying this is going to happen, not sure why you are.

What you've said can be summarised as "We're the USA, we do whatever the fuck we want"

A lot of people are going to take exception to that.

How does your military influence have anything to do with the country targeting people out of it's jurisdiction? I have absolutely no idea what your thought process is here. And no, you're not the only reason countries play nice, I hope you sincerely don't believe that.

And how aren't the US overstepping? All you've done is say that you haven't and then make some weird non-sequitur about the US then going and taking their ball home cos the other kids wouldn't let them have free reign.

first 3 is international law, they dont care how you get there once your there and yeah the people who di the kidnaping may face some charges they have to idintify them first and thats hard to do if you dont use names or any paper trail.(easy to do if you know how)

as for the rest not gonna sugar coat it, we can "just take are ball in go home" and that scares the crap out of the rest of the world. Which in turn alows us to do things other countries cant. Now this may be wrong that the US can do this but its the truth,***** and complain all you want it wont change the fact that the world needs the US more then it needs the world.

You can't grow sufficient crops internally to support your population, you don't have the resources necessary internally to fuel your economy, you have little-to-no manufacturing capability.

Please tell me again how you need the rest of the world less than it needs you.

 

[Navvan]

I'm not exactly well informed on this topic so can someone care to explain how exactly he could "press charges against the U.S. Gov" or how this exactly this is the U.S. overstepping its bounds? From what I can tell it was the N.Z. police that implemented the raid and handed over the data to the U.S. Gov. Wouldn't the only liable party (from a legal standpoint) be the N.Z. police who implemented the illegal raid which was only illegal due to the methods the N.Z. police used? All the U.S. did was press charges/accusations and push for it which they had jurisdiction to do so due to servers in Virginia. I'm not saying they were right to do so (as I don't really think the Megaupload company was doing anything illegal themselves) but it isn't like the U.S. didn't have the cooperation of the N.Z. government or jurisdiction rights. Again I'm not super informed on this type of thing so I'm genuinely asking for clarification.

You can't grow sufficient crops internally to support your population, you don't have the resources necessary internally to fuel your economy, you have little-to-no manufacturing capability.

Please tell me again how you need the rest of the world less than it needs you.

First I'm not agreeing with the other dude. I am a firm believer that the U.S. is better off participating in the global economy and would suffer greatly if it were for some reason to withdraw. However...

We are a net exporter of agricultural products [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_the_United_States] which means we could feed ourselves

We have lots of natural resources compared to most other nations. In particular we have the largest coal deposits in the world, and have sizable deposits of most ores. It may not be enough to keep our industry going at the rate it currently does, but its not like it would grind to a halt.

We account for approximately 1/5th of the worlds manufacturing capability as of 2012. The largest manufacturing in the world. It represents about 1.6+ trillion in our 15+ trillion dollar yearly GDP. It would be the 8th largest economy in the world by itself [http://www.nist.gov/mep/upload/FINAL_NAM_REPORT_PAGES.pdf]. You don't see many of our goods on the shelf anymore because most of it tends to be high-end goods like gas turbines or computer chips instead of clothing or toys.

The United states represents about 21% of the world's GDP. A little less than the entire European Union. It is of major importance in the world economy, and the rest of the world would suffer massively if it were to "take its ball and go home". We would also suffer equally if not more so, but it isn't like we'd all starve and be unable to do anything for ourselves.

Now if you turn that into "We'll play ball with everyone else, except you particular country that doesn't do what we want" well that country is basically cut off from more than 1/5th of the world's productivity by itself. The U.S. also tends to make its allies follow suit, and well that's a major incentive to do what it wants. Every country (that can) does the same thing and its called an embargo. It is an extreme tool, but it is used in some cases like North Korea and Iran. Even then its usually only partial and not complete isolation.

Every nation looks after their own self interests. Every nation should look after their own interests. The U.S.A. just has the biggest club to do that in terms of political power due to the size of its economy and the position it has on the world stage. The only question is if they hurt their long term interests (such as political relations) by advancing short term interests. To which I agree that it sometimes does.

 

[ecoho]

first 3 is international law, they dont care how you get there once your there and yeah the people who di the kidnaping may face some charges they have to idintify them first and thats hard to do if you dont use names or any paper trail.(easy to do if you know how)

as for the rest not gonna sugar coat it, we can "just take are ball in go home" and that scares the crap out of the rest of the world. Which in turn alows us to do things other countries cant. Now this may be wrong that the US can do this but its the truth,***** and complain all you want it wont change the fact that the world needs the US more then it needs the world.

So the US is above the law? Gotcha.

But just to correct you, no the US needs the rest of the world just as much, you're putting your country on a dangerously high pedestal.

It's this sort of bullying behaviour that really does ruin the image of your country.

A load of stuff

1) Great, not your place to decide that though now is it.
2) Well that NZ judge seems to disagree with you here.
3) Yeah cause fuck the rules amirite. The US can just do what it wants and fuck everyone else.
4)Great, no one's saying this is going to happen, not sure why you are.

What you've said can be summarised as "We're the USA, we do whatever the fuck we want"

A lot of people are going to take exception to that.

How does your military influence have anything to do with the country targeting people out of it's jurisdiction? I have absolutely no idea what your thought process is here. And no, you're not the only reason countries play nice, I hope you sincerely don't believe that.

And how aren't the US overstepping? All you've done is say that you haven't and then make some weird non-sequitur about the US then going and taking their ball home cos the other kids wouldn't let them have free reign.

first 3 is international law, they dont care how you get there once your there and yeah the people who di the kidnaping may face some charges they have to idintify them first and thats hard to do if you dont use names or any paper trail.(easy to do if you know how)

as for the rest not gonna sugar coat it, we can "just take are ball in go home" and that scares the crap out of the rest of the world. Which in turn alows us to do things other countries cant. Now this may be wrong that the US can do this but its the truth,***** and complain all you want it wont change the fact that the world needs the US more then it needs the world.

You can't grow sufficient crops internally to support your population, you don't have the resources necessary internally to fuel your economy, you have little-to-no manufacturing capability.

Please tell me again how you need the rest of the world less than it needs you.

nvm please just read the post the other guy wrote he does a much better job of explaining my point.

 

[Rednog]

I'm confused, why would this guy be extradited to the US for this? In fact lately alot of people are being (or are about to be) extradited to the US for things that didn't happen of US soil, what are they the only people who can prosecute pirates and internet users now?

They're pushing for extraditing people because a lot of countries turn a blind eye to copyright infringement against people in the US. Look at China as an example, it's piracy is massive, and with a gov't with such tight control you'd think they would've stomped it down, but it has flourished over the last 20 or so years.
A lot of countries just don't care because they don't have the same volume of high profile content providers as in the US.

Edit: And yes before someone chirps in, China has finally begun cracking down, but I'm guessing the reason for doing so is because the US owes so much money to China and having money siphoned out by something like piracy probably isn't profitable to the gov't in the long run.

I'm still waiting for anyone, anywhere, to provide some actual evidence that file sharing has a measurable negative effect on any IP holder. Especially considering the record profits being posted year-on-year by the various entertainment industries in America.

And no, Nintendo trying to say piracy has cost them more money than exists in the world is not what I'd call evidence.

What do you mean by "actual evidence", are you one of those people who plugs there ears when they hear about piracy and demand actual concrete numbers of the dollars lost to piracy?
Guess what? It's impossible to get exact numbers, it's all speculative, but even then the speculative numbers don't paint a pretty picture.
Look at cases like World of Goo who at one point had an estimated 90% piracy rate, if you honestly don't think that hurt the guys behind you, you are out of your mind. While not every pirated copy is a lost sale, it isn't a single dime headed toward the developer either.
Just look at the top most pirated games of 2011, Crysis 2 (4 Million), BF3 & MW3 (3M +), Portal 2 (3M+). Say in a world where there was no piracy, let's say 90% of the people wouldn't buy it if they couldn't pirate it but 10% would. And let's one of the games, say Portal 2, which at release was $49.99. That's about 15 million more to valve. 15 million at just 10% is nothing to scoff at.

 

[NiPah]

It's like everybody's suddenly forgotten how blatantly illegal Megaupload was.

Just going to point out your use of the copyrighted Rurouni Kenshin avatar is also illegal under US law unless you obtained it from public domain through the copyright holder Sony Pictures International. However what Megaupload did was not under NZ law illegal.

So chances are you're a bigger criminal then Dotkim, I mean sure what you're doing has little impact on the industry, but it's still illegal under US Trademark law.

 

[Alternative]

Just saying if this was Australia instead of New Zealand in this position.
Then Australia would of already rolled over and given him up without question, probably only asking for a rub of the belly or a scratch under the chin.

 

[rayen020]

geez what did america do to piss off new zealand? they're putting on the big boy voice and everything. anyway yay for megavideo i guess?

 

[BytByte]

Now this may be wrong that the US can do this but its the truth,***** and complain all you want it wont change the fact that the world needs the US more then it needs the world.

NUH-UH! We need the world to supply us with sites to illegally download things while we in turn supply the world with a ridiculous amount of self-confidence. Fair trade 101.

 

[Suave Charlie]

USA!USA!USA!

Yeah great thing is that food production isn't the only thing to concern yourself about as a first world nation. If your goal as the most rich nation in the world is basically to make sure no one starves, well first off you're already failing at that, but yeah I'm pretty sure the citizens want a little more than that.

Isolationism would tank the global economy and you should bear in mind that those guys in china make the vast majority of the small components and pretty much everything else that keeps the higher level manufacturing in the US going, so yeah, you'd have thousands of businesses ruined, millions unemployed, but at least you all have enough to eat. That's all a person needs.

Seriously this started out as you think the guy's guilty so it shouldn't matter how they prosecute him, now you're talking about America like they're doing everyone a favour by not fucking them.

You're coming across a tad douche-y; if your country can't do whatever it wants then it'll fuck the planet.
Never get into diplomacy.