Just finished Bioshock: Infinite - [HUGE SPOILERS]

[MysticSlayer]

I don't really understand the whole idea that the characters have to be the same person between universes, just equivalents. Booker isn't necessarily Jack, he's just his equivalent when taking the two stories together. The two lighthouses aren't the same lighthouse, they are just equivalents between the two stories. The same can be said of Rapture and Columbia, they are just two equivalent cities serving the same purpose, but they are not the same city.

BioShock Infinite commented on a lot of things: quantum mechanics, the nature of a depressed (and possibly suicidal) man, American nationalism and religiously-fueled politics, and time and our relationship to it. Outside of maybe the character analysis of Booker, I find that the only way to really get all of its ideas to come together into one coherent story is if we see it as a commentary on the nature of storytelling, most notably in relation to video games. Elizabeth's comments towards the end sort of establishes part of this: when dealing with a video game series, there will always be certain constants and variables among the games. In the BioShock universe, you will always have a man, a city, and a lighthouse; but there will also be differences among the many games. For instance, Rapture and Colombia are both unbelievable cities built around extreme ideologies, but one is built underwater and the other built in the sky. Rapture is based on staying away from the surface and keeping it that way, while Colombia only plans on remaining distant for a time before raining death down on the world below. If you apply this to pretty much everything in the games you can find these constants and variables, like comparing Booker to Jack, Comstock to Ryan, the Lutece "twins" to Tenenbaum and Suchong, Elizabeth to the Little Sisters (including Eleanor from BioShock 2), or Fitzroy to Fontaine. This idea also becomes more fleshed out if you start looking at franchises other than the BioShock series and applying its logic to those franchises. The commentary on storytelling in sequels goes especially well with an analysis of The Legend of Zelda.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I think that your theory in the end (parallel Rapture with lockdown, but without this specific thing) is a bit far fetched, but possible. Given the nature of the BSI story, everything's possible though.
There are clear ties between Columbia and Rapture. At least two of them are not open to interpretation. The one about the Handymen and (I think) Songbird and the other one about Vigors. Those are clearly stated to be technologies from another dimension.

It's not really a theory, it's just a possibility. I didn't notice anything 100% concrete linking the characters of Infinite to the original Bioshock to prove the DNA link. I'd say that them just being in a different Rapture is more possible considering there are infinite Raptures just like there were infinite Columbias. Therefore, the chances that Booker and Elizabeth went to the exact same Rapture as the one in the original Bioshock is extremely low (lower than even winning the lottery). There just seems like there'd be a bunch of stuff to fill-in yourself to literally connect the characters from both games (like Booker having a son that would be Ryan for example as I think Anna would be too young for Ryan to be her son). On my end, there's really nothing I have to add to the story to have it make sense. I mainly choose to interpret as it just being a different Rapture because I'm not a fan of the original Bioshock and it's story so I'd rather have as few links to the 1st Bioshock as possible as Infinite being its own thing pretty much allows me to enjoy Infinite more than linking it together.

There's links to Rapture because of the multiverse aspect of Infinite's story as they can just open a tear to Rapture to pull things from it. It's a Bioshock game, you're going to want plasmids/vigors to be apart of the gameplay for game purposes, and with the multiverse story in play, it's extremely simple to pull plasmids from Rapture instead of making up a new origin story for the vigors. The taking aspects from Rapture means as much as taking CCR's 'Fortunate Son' from our actual universe.

 

[Blaze the Dragon]

It's been pretty well explained so far, but another thing that's interesting is to note that all the alternate universes of Bioshock infinite are also on a meta level referencing the other copies of the game. For instance, it's a constant that you'll always get the same result from flipping the coin, but it's a variable on what necklace you choose, no matter who you are when playing the game, that is what happens. You can imagine it's like the Lutece's are jumping from game to game to tell each Booker these things and test them. This is also seen throughout the game with things like when the Luteces say things like "He's not getting out of the boat. Don't worry, he will eventually." It's a constant that you will get out of the boat in every copy of the game as it is the only thing you can do to progress.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

You're overthinking the whole thing. Of course everything's possible, but you cannot apply that level of logic/statistics/... to this because it's a fictional work written by someone.
When you say that "the chances that Booker and Elizabeth went to the exact same Rapture as the one in the original Bioshock is extremely low", you're right from a mathematical standpoint; but you cannot calculate like this in this case.
The chances that a writer sends you to an older world of his that looks the same, being the same world are very high.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but don't forget that it's Ken Levine's world and thus this reality plays by his rules.


As for the links to Rapture.
That Vigors were "inspired" by Plasmids from Rapture is, just like the technology behind Songbird/the Handymen, stated in audio logs you find in Infinite.

I realize all of that about being a fictional work and all. There's probably like a 50/50 chance that it's Bioshock's Rapture or just a different Rapture. You'd have to ask Ken Levine if the Rapture in Infinite is Bioshock's Rapture because there's nothing in Infinite (as far as I know) explicitly implying that. Sending the player to Rapture to kill Songbird is going to have the biggest impact on the player so that's probably the main reason Levine sent you to Rapture instead of some other random underwater area in some other random universe. Plus, one of the points of the plot is to tie Infinite to Bioshock via the multiverse so that's another reason to go to Rapture. Was Levine just showing parallels to the original Bioshock or was he directly linking the characters from both games together? Nobody knows but Levine and he has legit reasons to do either. I'd say he's not directly linking the characters just because time-wise it really doesn't make much sense that Ryan would be related to Booker or Anna. If all the characters are related, then that's some messed up family line lol and Elizabeth should've went back and killed Booker in his own crib to stop Rapture from ever happening. Lastly, Levine may have purposefully left it up to player interpretation as well and left hints (like the Bathysphere) that point in both directions so people like us can discuss all the possibilities and their thoughts and such.

I didn't mean to say someone from Columbia literally went into Rapture and physically grabbed plasmids. They observed Rapture's plasmids, copied the technology, and made their own just like Songbird/Handymen.

 

[The Lyre]

I guess I'm just as dumb as they are. I always thought that Schrodinger's Cat was used to support multiple universes (in that by collapsing the waveform you've created a universe where the cat is alive and one where the cat is dead)

Schrodinger's Cat is the paradox that many-worlds resolves.

Inside the box, the absurd notion is presented that the cat is aware of both being alive and dead at the same time - sound familiar?

The problem with Bioshock Infinite is that the many-worlds interpretation is meant to be the solution to this - the cat doesn't need to be aware of its own death because the two possibilities split off into parallel sequences of events. So, well, the universe doesn't break when no one is looking.

For no logical reason - narratively speaking, at least, there's one big, stupid, practical reason - Bioshock Infinite has the paradox and the solution to that paradox existing at once...which is...wrong, to say the least.

Bioshock Infinite authoritatively presents you with concepts that no one really understands. People just assume the writers got it right when, in fact, they really didn't. The plot has quite a few problems when you look too closely, so if you want to enjoy it, it's best to just accept it for what it is.

 

[Guy from the 80's]

I hope future Bioshock titles does NOT involve tears. It was a rubbish feature.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I'd say he's not directly linking the characters just because time-wise it really doesn't make much sense that Ryan would be related to Booker or Anna. If all the characters are related, then that's some messed up family line lol

Please elaborate, because I see nothing messed up there.

If Booker/Anna is related to Ryan, then their family line includes at least 2 people creating whole cities away from society and those cities going to shit. Comstock has been removed technically though.

and Elizabeth should've went back and killed Booker in his own crib to stop Rapture from ever happening.

Well Elizabeth didn't remove Booker from existance, just all the Bookers who could have turned into Comstock.
There's still a massive (not infinite) number of different Bookers. The ones who never went to war and thus never regretted it so much so they went to the baptism, the ones who went to war but didn't go to the baptism or in short: the ones who had a totally different life. One of those thousands of Bookers *might* become Ryan, be his father or whatnot. Nobody knows...

Yeah, I know and there's still an infinite amount of Bookers. I said, since Elizabeth can see all, that she should've went back and made it so no Bookers exist if their family line does directly led to Ryan and Rapture (as she would've saw that as well).

 

[JazzJack2]

Bioshock infinite's useage of parallel worlds and "quantum mechanics" perfectly summarizes how the game attempts to be intelligent by referencing important ideas and issues but makes no attempt to develop upon them meaningfully and ends up being vapid and moronic.

 

[Magicite Spring]

Yeah, I know and there's still an infinite amount of Bookers. I said, since Elizabeth can see all, that she should've went back and made it so no Bookers exist if their family line does directly led to Ryan and Rapture (as she would've saw that as well).

Not an infinite amount of Bookers. [/smartass = off]
Anyway, she would have killed all the good Bookers too, which on the contrary is something she likely didn't want to.

Replace Booker with Hitler.
Would you kill Hitler as a baby and remove him from existance or would you just kill all the evil ones? It's a tough question if you ask me, since I think of both as viable options. By that logic she could have removed all humans from existence by going back far enough, since every single evil human is related to others which would have to be purged then too.

Wait a minute...Internet forum? Not Hitler-related thread? Somebody draws parallels to the Nazis? GOD DAMMIT! Godwin's law at its best.

To add to this, there really is no reason for Elizabeth to stop Rapture from happening. She stops Columbia from happening because Columbia ends up destroying the world, but Rapture doesn't try to destroy the world. It just sits there under the sea.

 

[MetalRain47]

I don't really understand the whole idea that the characters have to be the same person between universes, just equivalents. Booker isn't necessarily Jack, he's just his equivalent when taking the two stories together. The two lighthouses aren't the same lighthouse, they are just equivalents between the two stories. The same can be said of Rapture and Columbia, they are just two equivalent cities serving the same purpose, but they are not the same city.

BioShock Infinite commented on a lot of things: quantum mechanics, the nature of a depressed (and possibly suicidal) man, American nationalism and religiously-fueled politics, and time and our relationship to it. Outside of maybe the character analysis of Booker, I find that the only way to really get all of its ideas to come together into one coherent story is if we see it as a commentary on the nature of storytelling, most notably in relation to video games.
Elizabeth's comments towards the end sort of establishes part of this: when dealing with a video game series, there will always be certain constants and variables among the games. In the BioShock universe, you will always have a man, a city, and a lighthouse; but there will also be differences among the many games. For instance, Rapture and Colombia are both unbelievable cities built around extreme ideologies, but one is built underwater and the other built in the sky. Rapture is based on staying away from the surface and keeping it that way, while Colombia only plans on remaining distant for a time before raining death down on the world below.
If you apply this to pretty much everything in the games you can find these constants and variables, like comparing Booker to Jack, Comstock to Ryan, the Lutece "twins" to Tenenbaum and Suchong, Elizabeth to the Little Sisters (including Eleanor from BioShock 2), or Fitzroy to Fontaine. This idea also becomes more fleshed out if you start looking at franchises other than the BioShock series and applying its logic to those franchises. The commentary on storytelling in sequels goes especially well with an analysis of The Legend of Zelda.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Not an infinite amount of Bookers. [/smartass = off]
Anyway, she would have killed all the good Bookers too, which on the contrary is something she likely didn't want to.

Replace Booker with Hitler.
Would you kill Hitler as a baby and remove him from existance or would you just kill all the evil ones? It's a tough question if you ask me, since I think of both as viable options. By that logic she could have removed all humans from existence by going back far enough, since every single evil human is related to others which would have to be purged then too.

Wait a minute...Internet forum? Not Hitler-related thread? Somebody draws parallels to the Nazis? GOD DAMMIT! Godwin's law at its best.

If an infinite amount of Comstocks resulted just from one Booker branch then it only makes sense all the other Booker branches have to equal to infinity as well.

Elizabeth did come up with the idea to kill the one good Booker she was with as the Booker you played died along with all the Comstocks as Elizabeth took you to BEFORE Booker made the decision thereby killing both the Booker that said "Yes" to the baptism (who became Comstock) along with the one that said "No" to the baptism (your Booker that sold Anna). An infinite number of Comstocks result from that one decision along with an infinite number of good Bookers, and all of them got removed basically. So, I definitely think Elizabeth would've taken you back even farther if needed.

 

[The_Scrivener]

I'm guessing this somehow ties Infinite to Bioshock (Rapture) but if so then the characters would have to fit as well. I assume that Jack is Booker and Ryan? But who is Elizabeth? Who's all the other characters?

It was meant to be meta. It's a fourth-wall-breaking nod to storytelling. Sort of.

People like to claim that it's related to the many-worlds elements of the plot, but it isn't. It can't be, because as you yourself pointed out, there isn't always a man/lighthouse/city.

It was tripe, frankly.

If you wish to develop your own understanding of Bioshock Infinite a bit more

As someone who has a basic understanding of the mechanics Bioshock Infinite tried to use, I can tell you, with certainty, that learning about the concepts and thought experiments shoved into B.I. will only disillusion you.

Bioshock Infinite's...interpretation...of parallel worlds in particular was borderline ridiculous and actually redundant, of all things - I didn't even know you could do that, but they managed it.

They used Schrodinger's Cat as an actual plot concept - not a thought experiment, but an actual, real concept - not only that, but they used it in conjunction with the many-worlds interpretation; something that has always been intended to provide a solution for that paradox. That tells you everything you need to know, unfortunately. I don't even know how to describe how unnecessary and...well, dumb that is in an eloquent manner.

Infinite was disappointingly light on science fiction, heavy on science fantasy.

OP - enjoy Bioshock Infinite as much as you can, for what it is - a beautiful city with somewhat interesting characters - but don't look too closely. You'll fall into hole after hole.

Although you're obviously right on a lot of levels intellectually, this is the most pretentious post I've ever read.

For over 100 years, films and books have jumped over the moon with illogical and sometimes convoluted premises because the story it allows them to tell is intriguing and beautiful. Getting out a textbook and highlighting formulas and theorems while the credits are rolling is missing the point. There are always going to be people more intelligent within a given subject matter than a director, a writer, and yes, video game designers/developers. If they knew everything about quantum physics, they'd work for NASA instead of creating video games.

Understanding the game's sentiment is more important than understanding the science used to drive it. Bioshock Infinite is a game about loss, identity, redemption, and possibility. It isn't about getting on the Internet and participating in your daily bout of IQ one-upsmanship.

I don't mean to tell you how to enjoy (or not enjoy) your entertainment or your art. I don't mean to invalidate your opinion at all, because again, it is extremely valid. But trying to fact check a game where a supernatural girl in a cloud city is taking you through multi-layered planes of existence with infinite outcomes is kind of like telling your naked girlfriend to get off of you because you can't figure out how she got home from work so quickly.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

But it wasn't an infinite amount of Comstocks.
A very high amount, but nowhere near infinite. Whenever he did a decision another Comstock was created who took the other route. I once read that the average human being makes about 1000 decisions a day, which would create 2000 versions of that human being each day and a lot of other versions because those alternate versions would make decisions too. Nobody is immortal though so you can only make a limited amount of decisions and thus only create a limited amount of versions of yourself.
But that's irrelevant to the discussion and just a small detail.
A lot != an infinite amount

It may not be literally infinite but it would take more than you whole life to calculate how many universes resulted from just one person. With just one person making decisions in one day, there's probably like a billion or more universes just created that day, then each of the billion alternate versions results in another billion universes the next day. Plus, not every decision has 2 options either. It may not be an infinite amount of universes but I'd say it's definitely incalculable. It's kinda like that thing where you get a penny the 1st day of a month and double it every day for a whole month but taken to just ridiculous lengths.

 

[Zeh Don]

I just finished this, and it was interesting reading through the thread and reading the different interpretations of the differences and meanings behind a lot of what went on.

Personally, I'd by lying if I said I found the ending satisfying, and the more I think about it - and the more posts I read here - the more I realise the fairly flawed nature of it's attempt at explanation. It just unravels as you poke it.
The gameplay, at least for me, really fell apart in the last hour or so, which put a lot of weight on the story to carry the entire ending. At least with the original Bioshock, I got a good ending depending on how many sisters I saved.

While I loved the parallel to the original Bioshock, and the way it addressed the nature of it's repeating constants, I felt Infinite's ending was rushed and incomplete. The story telling allegory of "The man, the city and the lighthouse" is a solid concept - really - but discarded as soon as it's discussed. I don't think there's too much more to it than that, as in I don't think Jack is Booker (Jack was only four years old, remember).
As has already been covered in this thread, I think they're just "stand ins" for every story: the protagonist, the location of his adventure, and the event that starts it off. It's vague, but it's supposed to be.

The actual story ending for Booker was painfully unintelligent, and raises far more questions than it solves - and at least one unsolvable paradox: Whatever action prevents Comstock from existing prevents Elizabeth from existing.
So, if the action is successful, and actually prevents Comstock, than Elizabeth can't exist to travel back and prevent Comstock from existing.
This is, of course, ignoring the fact the game focuses on the "infinite worlds" aspect of quantum theory, and not actually time travel. As the Twins mentioned in the game, they deal with probability - not prediction - because it's not the future they're seeing, it's alternate worlds. So, they shouldn't be able to prevent Booker from making the choice because they can't go back to the original Booker.