Karma Systems

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Kanlic

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Warning contains minor spoilers for Fallout 3

tl/dr I gained perspective about who I am based on the games karma rating of me.

I've been playing Fallout 3 for the past few days, and I've truly began to understand how good it is on so many levels. The writing is thoughtful, the setting feels genuine, and the best aspect of it that most people agree on is the ability to choose your own path. As a result, I learned something about myself, and it was enhanced by the games karma system. I am only done with the early portion of the game, for reference I haven't even made it to the GNR building yet.

When I play video games, I like to project myself into the character when deciding certain actions, "the what would I do if I had freakishly good regenerative capabilities and skill that could be enhanced by staring really hard at a bobble head." So I played Fallout 3 like doing the actions I would do in real life. I stole for my benefit, but I did the best I could to help people around me by making them feel better and ending conflict. In short I wanted to grow wings and shit rainbows like any self respecting benevolent person would.

Early on I came across a fortified settlement called Tenpenny Tower. It's inhabitants were the itemization of rich snobbery. The people there truly believed in their dominance over everyone else because they had more wealth. Essentially they were a golf club of conservatives with sticks shoved so far up their asses that, for the the first time in the game, I wasn't surprised that they had wooden expressions on their faces. Not to mention there wasn't a face darker than Conan O'Brian's, and not to subtle hint there Bethesda.

At the time, the guards at Tenpenny Tower weren't letting in these ghouls, who are essentially fully cognoscente zombies. The ghouls just wanted to live with the humans in peace, but their denial raised tensions between the groups and their fighting was immanent. The ghouls had enough with pleading to be treated with equality, they were just going to tip the balance in their favor. This to me raised the ideas of segregation, with the ghouls adopting a Malcolm X approach to equality (stop singing and start swinging) and the old-guard white domination that was prevalent in the 60's. My goal was to be the MLK of the conflict.

I talked with both groups and tried to figure out a way for the ghouls to be accepted into the community. Some of the Tenpenny residents weren't keen on the idea, so I ran the most hardcore of them out of town by stealing from them and even going to the point of revealing to a woman that her husband cheated on her, which led to her murdering the lovers and forcing her out of town. In the end I accomplished my goal. Ghouls moved in and everyone was happy.

I come back to the Tower the next day to talk to an old adventurer I met the day before, but I find the building barren. When I walked in the basement, there was a pile of dead bodies, they were all the residents that accepted the ghouls into their community. I was honestly shocked. When I found the ghouls in the suites, they told me that they decided to kill the residents anyways because they were assholes. This wasn't right, and I wasn't going to let their actions go unpunished, so I killed the leader ghouls best friend and girlfriend before finishing him off as punishment.

A little bit later on in the game I was ambushed by regulators. I was confused, but I managed to kill them off. One of the bodies had the bounty on my head, and it was for the unlawful murder of a societies people. The law was after me because I killed all those ghouls, because I didn't have the right to. I checked my Karma rating and it was goat demon raping Dick Cheney. Again I was confused. I did all I could to help people. I would give free water to beggars, I would help anyone in need, and I did what I thought was right, but when I broke down my actions, I realized how wicked of a person I have become. I stole whenever I had the chance, most if not all my actions were driven by what was in my best interest, and I had a sense of superiority over everyone else. I took it upon myself to decide what was right and wrong when it isn't my choice at all. I gave people the perception that I really was a good man when in reality I was just milking them until I found no more use of them. I truly was the worst kind of evil because I wasn't aware of it.

An ex-bandit joined my ranks as a result of my nefarious behavior. we roamed the wastelands stealing and killing to our hearts content, until I eventually came up on a woman who was living by herself in an abandoned town. I was stealing her food so I could sell it at a marked up price, but she caught me and took the food back. Out of anger I blew her brains out so I could get the stuff back. Looking at her dead body I learned that I was no different than the bandits that ran around the wasteland. I was evil scum, and I didn't like it. I decided to change myself then and there, and haven't stolen since.

I learned a lot about who I am just playing the first few hours of Fallout 3. It really did enrich my life because it's karma meter actually gave me a wake-up call to who I essentially was in the game. I know karma meters are very flawed, but instances like this really give me hope about their implementation.

EDIT Man I didn't realize how much I wrote, sorry about that, I added a tl/dr at the top
 

Cabal_Therapist

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That's a pretty interesting look at how Karma systems affect play. A lot of the time, they do seem pretty arbitrary (And usually just give a different ending), but you've pointed out something that not a lot do, that some people are actually affected by how the game treats the player based on the actions.

I think that immersion is a really big part in games, and you show how the morality system adds to immersion, (and is pretty similar to how most people reacted to a certain part in Link's Awakening).

It's really cool that a games been able to affect you like that, and like you say shows some hope for future morality systems in games.
 

AlternatePFG

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There's alot of good things about Fallout 3 but being well written isn't one of them. I never had a problem with the karma system in the old Fallout games, it doesn't really effect anything and unless you get labeled a Child Killer it doesn't affect how people react to you a whole lot. Fallout 3 on the other hand, the game is built around your karma, and has Three Dog who's only purpose in the game is to compliment you or deride you for your karma. Or how you're okay joining up with the slavers bad guy club just because you're a big enough asshole. Don't think it makes much sense to be honest. New Vegas was slightly better on that front but with some really stupid decisions (Why is killing Fiends good karma when I have to fight them no matter what karma I have?). The reputation system is better, and allows for more ambiguity, which is something Fallout 3 frankly lacked.

Edit: Karma systems in general are bad anyway. They have never improved a game.
 

Chibz

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Sorry to say but Karma systems are almost universally horse-shit.

My biggest complaint is that they look at the action alone, rather than the action AND context.

Games would be much better off without karma systems. But good luck telling devs that.

Oh yeah, and don't get me started on how stupid Fable 2's "karma system" is. Eating meat = evil. WHAT THE SHIT?
 

Outright Villainy

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Well see, that is a good story, but I fail to see how the Karma system itself actually impacted on that revelation. Karma systems are all about an arbitrary morality, which is ever shifting from culture to culture, and even person to person, and it completely ignores context.

I'm more in favour of a faction system, which was more emphasised in New Vegas over the regular Karma, which I greatly appreciated. It showed you how your actions were seen by certain groups, not some omniscient deity. It felt much more tangible, and a useful barometer of your standing without moral judgement of your actions, because in the end, you should be deciding that, not the game.
 

slacker09

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Chibz said:
Oh yeah, and don't get me started on how stupid Fable 2's "karma system" is. Eating meat = evil. WHAT THE SHIT?
Technically eating meat was a "corrupt action" not an evil one. This relates closer to ideas of pleasure versus self control. Being greedy and doing things that are less healthy gives corruption while being more generous, usually meaning charging less rent, and eating healthy gives one purity.

Though I will still agree that many parts of Fable's morality systems were messed up, such as divorce being about 10 times as evil as murder, I just felt the need to clarify.

P.S. Where is your picture from, those look like Kamina shades but I do not recognize the character.
 

fragmaster09

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heh... i steal if i think i cn get away with it... unless they're poor... like Robin hood,
Arefu: stole only 2/3 things, let everyone live, but looted the bodies of 2 people who were already dead(nobody else seemed to notice that these people had been rotting for what must have been days/weeks, even though
their son killed then a night or two ago and was recruited by people who drank others' blood...

but, Vault 101,Megaton,and Brotherhood Outcasts: i stole everything of value... and took the expensive power armor suit and chinese stealth armor(at lvl 5 i was strutting around in full unique winterised t-51b)... but i payed them back by killing the rebels who were aggro to me AND the others.

but The Pitt... ugh... that's wherre Karma fails bigtime:

you are told to find 'the cure', which turns out to be the slaveowners' baby son... i think "i can't steal this little baby from his parents, i'll go back to that guy and explain that i wish him all the luck in getting freedom, but i can't take someone's baby from them"...well... i walk outside, the door locks with no key to open it... all the workers are against me and the immoral guards are my best friends... i return to the woman who helped me get out and she refuses to give me the man who took me there's whereabouts, i don't want to threaten her, but as i leave, she attacks me, i kill her and find his whereabouts(note to all: always look through the dead's stuff, even if you're sure there's nothing you need, they might have ammo, which is weightless, or something unexpectedly valuable.)from a note in her pockets, i go to him, and try to explain, but all the speech options make me shout art him and don't help the situation, so he attacks me as well... after resigning myself to this, i leave, and THE GAME FREEZES UP!!!... i mean... MY LIFE FROZE UP!!!.

tl;dr of the 2nd spoiler: i did what i believed to be the right thing: not hurt anybody, but in the end i was forced to kill many anonymous people who i had no problem with, and 2 major characters who i simply wanted to talk to.
 

Chibz

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slacker09 said:
Technically eating meat was a "corrupt action" not an evil one. This relates closer to ideas of pleasure versus self control. Being greedy and doing things that are less healthy gives corruption while being more generous, usually meaning charging less rent, and eating healthy gives one purity.
Except... Eating meat is a healthy action when done sparingly. The game made eating meat out to be an overtly "corrupt"/unhealthy action that has no redeeming traits at all. That's why I honestly propose it was created by militant vegans (They exist). I'd actually argue that the "pure" characters would suffer from crippling iron deficiency. Iron, wouldn't that be helpful in saving the world?

Though I will still agree that many parts of Fable's morality systems were messed up, such as divorce being about 10 times as evil as murder, I just felt the need to clarify.
Militant vegans who have nothing against... murder. The fuck do you want from me?

P.S. Where is your picture from, those look like Kamina shades but I do not recognize the character.
Oh, the shades ARE Kamina's. The character is called Yugo.
 

slacker09

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Chibz said:
slacker09 said:
Technically eating meat was a "corrupt action" not an evil one. This relates closer to ideas of pleasure versus self control. Being greedy and doing things that are less healthy gives corruption while being more generous, usually meaning charging less rent, and eating healthy gives one purity.
Except... Eating meat is a healthy action when done sparingly. The game made eating meat out to be an overtly "corrupt"/unhealthy action that has no redeeming traits at all. That's why I honestly propose it was created by militant vegans (They exist). I'd actually argue that the "pure" characters would suffer from crippling iron deficiency. Iron, wouldn't that be helpful in saving the world?

Though I will still agree that many parts of Fable's morality systems were messed up, such as divorce being about 10 times as evil as murder, I just felt the need to clarify.
Militant vegans who have nothing against... murder. The fuck do you want from me?


Like I said, I agree that Fable's morality system was messed up and made little sense in many areas. I just wanted to clarify the difference in the morality systems, that being one is based around Good and Evil and the other is Purity and Corruption.
 

Chibz

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slacker09 said:
Like I said, I agree that Fable's morality system was messed up and made little sense in many areas. I just wanted to clarify the difference in the morality systems, that being one is based around Good and Evil and the other is Purity and Corruption.
Fallout 3/New Vegas' morality systems made no sense either.

Here's one. I went through Vault 3 and being the Paragon of Good my character was... He stole all their drugs. Every last bit of it. Except it didn't count as stealing.

I freed the prisoners RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE FIENDS (positive karma). I then proceeded to kill every Fiend I saw. Which gave more positive karma.

I got to the boss-man, sold him all the drugs I stole at an increased price (Got an easy 3K or so caps). Then I killed him and all his guards (more positive karma).

I then went back to the NCR, reported that the fiends were dead. Was congratulated, and received +NCR rep (Only thing in this story that makes sense) and more +karma.

Lesson learned: Stealing people's drugs is OK, selling them back to them at an inflated price is OK. Killing them after transaction is complete is OK too.

Wait, what?
 

slacker09

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Chibz said:
Fallout 3/New Vegas' morality systems made no sense either.

Here's one. I went through Vault 3 and being the Paragon of Good my character was... He stole all their drugs. Every last bit of it. Except it didn't count as stealing.

I freed the prisoners RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE FIENDS (positive karma). I then proceeded to kill every Fiend I saw. Which gave more positive karma.

I got to the boss-man, sold him all the drugs I stole at an increased price (Got an easy 3K or so caps). Then I killed him and all his guards (more positive karma).

I then went back to the NCR, reported that the fiends were dead. Was congratulated, and received +NCR rep (Only thing in this story that makes sense) and more +karma.

Lesson learned: Stealing people's drugs is OK, selling them back to them at an inflated price is OK. Killing them after transaction is complete is OK too.

Wait, what?
Yeah, Fallout's system doesn't really work out either. Have there been any games with well implemented morality systems? I can't think of any of the top of my head, but I would love to find one.
 

Stammer

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I'm a terrible roleplayer most of the time. Even when I play RPG's I always do everything the way I would personally.

That's why in Mass Effect 2 I'm capped Paragon and like barely any Renegade. And also why I chose Tali as my love interest.

I've actually tried-- several times-- to play the role of someone else. In Fallout 3 I made a secondary character and tried to be an asshole. Didn't work. In both Mass Effect games I made a secondary character and tried to be an asshole. Didn't work. Heck, I can't even play inFamous while being a bad guy. AND THATS THE POINT OF THE GAME! Bioshock too, I couldn't kill the Little Sisters.

I'm way too sensitive of an individual and far too proud to be a jerk in games. Especially if those games have well-written characters and I feel like they're even remotely realistic people.

But I also think karma systems in games don't work the way they should. I think it was Yahtzee who pointed out that a good karma system should give the player an incentive to be bad.
 

Kapol

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Well, on the subject of Karma and Fallout, I think that New Vegas was horrible in terms of it's karma. Your karma did not effect a single thing as far as I know. But it did have a much better system... the factions. While Karma has it's place, I think it's far more immersive when you're effecting each group seperately instead of a general 'good or evil.' That's especially true when the group in question may be an 'evil' one. Not to mention that some groups likely don't talk much with others, so karma effecting how every group sees you doesn't make much sense. For example, the people in the giant ship in Fallout 3 (can't remember the name) likely don't talk much with Megaton, as going that far is pretty dangerous, and therefore it's unlikely that your karma should follow you to those places.

Anyways, mini-rant aside, I like karma, but I like the idea of factions and even individuals having person opinions on the PC.
 

AlternatePFG

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Kapol said:
Karma shouldn't affect the game at all though.

Edit: The reputation system is good, I agree but the reason karma didn't affect anything in New Vegas other than the ending is because they were trying to avoid it ending up like 3 where you karma decided everything. Some of the karma gains and losses were extremely bizarre though. Killing Fiends gives you good karma, even if they attack you first? It makes getting the evil ending for you character very hard.
 

GrimSheeper

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I'm still on the opinion that a Karma system is biased by what the developers deem good or evil, and since it's so binary in most games, you will end up with either John Paul II. or Josef Stalin as your rating. The way you described your actions, you did nothing that would constitute for the Regulators to show up. You sought a diplomatic approach, but the ghouls steppd out of line, commited mass murdering and you, being the only one who knew of it and who was capable of doing so, put down a group of murderous racists. Yes, the ghouls in the tower are just as racist at that point for indescriminately killing everyone.
Why are you evil based on that?
Because I don't think the Fallout morality system works. It often has some bright moments, but overall it's Black/White decisions that leave you either a saint or a sinner. No inbetween, no shades of gray. You just do either thing.
I realize just how complex it is to intertwine all the actions in a game with consequences and make them more morally ambigous and I don't believe in the Bioware attempt either, since they go to extreme lengths just to make sure there is not a single option that is purely good.

I think Metro2033 did an okay job at Karma because it neither rated you for it nor gave you visible points throughout the game. It didn't tell you that you were evil and you would never have known if you haven't managed the good ending. Your actions were good or evil in that game as well, but it makes sense what is good: not killing, don't steal from people, be helpful

In Fallout I often felt that stealing from rapists and murderers is not something that should be considered negative Karma. Neither is just randomly spraying the insides of every last Fiend you can find over their Vault without giving them any chance at rehabilitation. Granted, they're just mindless enemies in Fallout New Vegas, but I don't see why some of them wouldn't consider NOT being on every psychopharmaceutic product the Wasteland can provide and NOT being generally hated murderes and psychopaths.
 

Kanlic

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AlternatePFG said:
There's alot of good things about Fallout 3 but being well written isn't one of them. I never had a problem with the karma system in the old Fallout games, it doesn't really effect anything and unless you get labeled a Child Killer it doesn't affect how people react to you a whole lot. Fallout 3 on the other hand, the game is built around your karma, and has Three Dog who's only purpose in the game is to compliment you or deride you for your karma. Or how you're okay joining up with the slavers bad guy club just because you're a big enough asshole. Don't think it makes much sense to be honest. New Vegas was slightly better on that front but with some really stupid decisions (Why is killing Fiends good karma when I have to fight them no matter what karma I have?). The reputation system is better, and allows for more ambiguity, which is something Fallout 3 frankly lacked.

Edit: Karma systems in general are bad anyway. They have never improved a game.
Well it depends on how you view karma and morality in general. I believe actions define a character, and thus I have a utilitarian outlook on morality. It doesn't matter what the intention of the action is, only what the outcome came to be, and in this sense the morality system in Fallout 3 makes sense to me. It is a barometer to how society views you, it doesn't matter what you intended, only how you are perceived to be. In this sense, choosing too do the more convenient action such as stealing or killing is going to make people look at you in a negative light.

Granted I haven't finished the game, so I haven't experienced some of those aspects you talked about, but I do get your point. Gangs will talk to you no matter if you are good or bad, so long as they have something to gain. And the whole thing about everyone knowing how you are as a person is annoying to a degree because it breaks immersion a little bit, which brings me to my next point.

Outright Villainy said:
Well see, that is a good story, but I fail to see how the Karma system itself actually impacted on that revelation. Karma systems are all about an arbitrary morality, which is ever shifting from culture to culture, and even person to person, and it completely ignores context.

I'm more in favour of a faction system, which was more emphasised in New Vegas over the regular Karma, which I greatly appreciated. It showed you how your actions were seen by certain groups, not some omniscient deity. It felt much more tangible, and a useful barometer of your standing without moral judgement of your actions, because in the end, you should be deciding that, not the game.
I like the idea of the barometer system. I never got my hands on New Vegas, so my mind is going crazy about the possibilities that the game probably will never live up to. I understand that for the most part, karma is arbitrary, so if there was a shit in how it was used, there could be some valid use to it. What I am thinking is maybe we should change our mindset from karma to reputation, because then the system feels a hell of a lot more valid even if nothing else changes.

I think that we are just stuck with the idea that karma is what defines whether or not a person is good or bad, because we as a society believe that intention is adds weight to an action when in the end we only care about result. Such as a drunk driver unintentionally killing someone on the way home. We understand his intention was not to kill but we as a society don't care because his action had dire consequences.

Now that idea might fall with games like InFamous 2 where in one evil mission you had to trick the people into thinking you were good so they would join you, but I think if a competent developer can flesh this idea out more, you would have a more involved game.
 

JourneyThroughHell

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That same goal could've easily been accomplished without the karma system. In fact, blindly accepting what the game thinks is good and bad just makes it worse.

I killed the ghouls, too. Didn't kill the ones who weren't part of the mudering, though, just Roy and the guy who attacked me. The game considered it "bad karma". How? Why is killing that guy bad karma, but shooting Tenpenny in the face, often with no reason, mind you, is quite alright.

You can't foresee the motivations of players' actions with a simple karma system. Life doesn't work like that. Sure, there are things that are monumentaly good and bad - but in a world like Fallout 3, even those get all mashed up. Grading certain actions with a karma system is not only limiting creative thinking, not only disconnecting the player with the character, but if you give rewards based on it, that limits the player's freedom. In a game like Fallout 3, that's fucking unacceptable.
 

Ryujisama

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I thought Infamous 2's morality system was alright, in that it affected how I played the game moreso than how it affected the story. Being good, besides helping civilians and being a more merciful fighter, meant I had to train myself to be more precise with my powers. Sure, I could clear an entire battlefield with a well-aimed Ionic Vortex, but it meant potentially killing allies or innocent civilians caught in the crossfire. As an evil dood, I could use my powers however I saw fit. Essentially making the game easier in that I could just fill an area with grenades and not care, but that means more enemies (xp and electricity sources) to take account for.