Karmatic bars

[Uzbekistan]

So, I've been watching walkthroughs of video games (Yes, I'm too poor to actually go BUY them) and I notice that a lot of them have karma bars. So, I ask you this:

What do you think of Karma bars? I personally think they're arbitrary. When doing something, no one is going to be completely good OR completely evil. They're going to be human, no matter what, and they are going to do what they need to in order to survive. But hey, I could be wrong. What do you think about them?

(Also, who is good to watch on Youtube for walkthroughs? I don't mind if they talk as long as they don't waste my time. Or if they do, they're hilarious.)

 

[madwarper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_KU3lUx3u0
Extra Credits (well, before they got picked up by the Escapist and called themselves 'Extra Credits') covered this well, imho.

I'd prefer hiding the bar from the player.

 

[The Wykydtron]

They're ok i guess, though they can be a bit restricting... Like some all of the moral choices in Fable 3

Guy A: "What that can't possibly be the evil choice!"
Guy B: "The devs think so"
Guy A: "Bullshit i saved more lives draining that lake!"
Guy B: "But the devs want you to be a paragon of niceness, picnics and most importantly picturesque landscapes!"
Guy A: "..."

 

[IBlackKiteI]

Karmatic bars themselves are dumb, however I do quite like the idea of moral choices in games, although so far they are little more than a silly little gimmick in those games which feature them.

So, first you need a game does moral choices well, but instead of some cheery little bar saying + 5 Renegade points when you do something, how 'bout something much more subtle?
What if as you become more and more 'evil', your companions follow your example?
Say they do the same things they think you would do in certain situations, and you could see the impact of your continued actions on other characters and how they change their personalities into those of your character over time?

Maybe instead of looking at the karma bar to see how much of a bad guy you are, you should look at one of your squad mates and see how they act.

 

[cowsvils]

Karma is a pretty good system in theory, but it feels pretty restrictive at this point just because designers don't really do much with it at this point. Should someone come up with a system that really makes you feel the weight of your actions then it would be a useful tool to see what the world thinks of you. Until that they'll just be a cute little adition.

 

[Saelune]

Ya know, though you say no one is going to be completly good or bad...thats kinda why they have karma bars. A sliding scale of morality. I like them to a point, but I would like them to advance to better show grey areas. Fallout 3 is one of the few games that seems to take the time to point out the middle ground better than others.
Also I think Fable 2 started something good, where it measured how people viewed you in different areas. Id like that to be advanced better too, since bad guys can be viewed positively, and good guys negatively if done right.

 

[Havzad]

i never enjoyed karmatic bars
if anyones every played ogre battle 64 you'd understand my reason why, i hate how its always only good or bad, the spectrum is so much deeper then that, but its also very in depth,few games ever attempt it (NWN 2).
but sometimes they help simplify a game. like dragon age games, narrowing it down to good or bad made it easy for me to navigate a somewhat confusing game

 

[Ninjat_126]

Fallout at least made neutral a viable option. Games like Infamous are a bit too restrictive.

If I was to design a game with a karma meter, it would be:

1. Invisible to the player

2. Based on individual factions. Each group would have a different opinion of you.

3. Decide which missions you are assigned. Evil players have a greater focus on "dirty" jobs.

4. Have no effect on any XP gain, upgrades or weapons.

 

[Havzad]

Fallout at least made neutral a viable option. Games like Infamous are a bit too restrictive.

If I was to design a game with a karma meter, it would be:

1. Invisible to the player

2. Based on individual factions. Each group would have a different opinion of you.

3. Decide which missions you are assigned. Evil players have a greater focus on "dirty" jobs.

4. Have no effect on any XP gain, upgrades or weapons.

the best way to make a karma system perfect, in terms of quests, is to make the ending of the quest come out the way YOU want it to.
wave of the reward, demand more, side with the villain instead, run off with the amulet because you thinks its cooler then any reward... if all those options where covered for, say, a simple fetch quest then it would be perfect.
just making a character only do the evil missions makes players feel like there missing content

 

[Gennadios]

Complete garbage.

Corner 1: Good Judgement/Evil
Corner 2: Sentimentality/Good

Games need to hire adults to write their s***, or at least turn these things into a matrix so that sacrificing the few for a long-term good doesn't automatically get treated as baby eating.

A nudge and a wink to Bioware, btw.

EDIT: I would also like to add designers need to stop giving equivalent rewards for good options as bad ones, at the very least stick to giving good characters exp and bad characters loot/cash.

This balancing BS shouldn't be a consideration in single player games. Players who want the best possible endings should suck it up and have to work with fewer resources. "Good" decisions need to hurt or their meaningless.

 

[Mettking]

Good and bad/evil are words that can only be defined by a user. You can easly make what others view as a "bad/evil" choise but doing it for all the right reasons. The problem with games is Karma is less of a personal thing and more of a public opinion poll. One of the examples I could think of for getting a free cop out if I were the actual character would be just make a speach saying that change will come, but it will be a slow process.

Also, try to not tell me what is a good and bad on my first playthrough, or at least not show me my overall karma.

 

[Something Amyss]

Corner 1: Good Judgement/Evil
Corner 2: Sentimentality/Good

I chuckled.

I mean, that was intended to be a joke, not a strawman fallacy, right?

It rarely breaks down that way, and I can't help but feel this is probably based more on the notion that "I want to make that choice" rather than it being "good judgment."

Besides, if it's the logical choice, why not take the hit and be "evil?"

In alignment discussions within D&D Not sure about current edition), a popular character rarely gets his alignment called evil. Everyone from the Joker to Sepiroth to Greg House to Stabby McMurderface will be listed as Neutral. It's about personal attachment. The logic comes down to "but I really, really like him, so he can't be evil!"

I see this trend showing up in discussions on morality meters now, as well.

 

[AlternatePFG]

They need to die. Can't stand them. Fallout 3 was the worth offender in my opinion, some situations that gave you karma were completely debatable. New Vegas had factions, but it still had the base karma system. Mass Effect 2 also annoyed me, because your karma basically was your persuasion skill (I know ME1 did it similarly, but you didn't always have to go one way), so if you want to make a playthrough doing what you want to do, you'll be punished for. Same thing applies for KOTOR (although it's not as bad) and KOTOR 2 (while the lightsaber crystal that changes with your alignment actually had a really good neutral bonus, there were no neutral specializations, which killed it). I prefer the system that Dragon Age 2 had (I know 1 had a similar system, but I like to able to have companions argue with me without them leaving outright), mostly because it was what others thought of you, not the game itself.

Personally, I'd rather they'd just get rid of all that stuff altogether. I don't mind faction alignment though.

 

[Odegauger]

Any type of good-vs-evil meter, in whatever form, shouldn't even be used in the first place. Any system of ethics that uses a fucking two-point scale shouldn't exist outside the mind of a third-grader.

 

[emeraldrafael]

I think they're not handled right. If there was more inbtween, they'd be much better.

 

[Lazier Than Thou]

If you're going to demand people use a karma system, you must explain to them the criteria by which they will be judged. Moreover, if you're going to do it, make sure that the choice is relatively obvious, leaving none of your choice "up to chance." I don't recall the game or the circumstances, but I do remember getting burned by moral choices where the end result of a choice was polar opposite of what I had selected. Something like "I choose to not kill you" ending up killing them whereas "I choose to kill you" ended up in them not dying.

It can't be arbitrary, it has to be built upon a specific moral foundation that MUST be given to the player. If you're not willing to create your own morals, DON'T DO IT.

Otherwise, I'm fine with them.

 

[rabidmidget]

I prefer morality systems where the issues are morally grey, and rather than being given useless karma points based on your decision, your decision instead causes consequences that are both good and bad and may cause you to gain favour with some people, but lose it with others (and not just good/evil factions either).

 

[RedMagic]

I try to play neutral as much as possible, but the problem with karma meters is that at some point I end up choosing all the good or evil decisions to get the rewards/perks associated with them (since they don't reward neutrality well).

Having a good or evil bar looks nice on paper, but more often than not you end up just making choices based on what the game regards as good or evil, instead of making decisions based on what you think is best for the situation.