Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

[orangeban]

These stereotypes revolve around this idea of men being the ultimate ideal.

I think I understand what you mean by the "ultimate man" archetype, being big and tough and unemotional; but is that not just the easiest way to portray a capable, independent and strong willed character? I personally would assume it is, and it would mean the "burly female stereotype" is not born of sexism but from inherent lack of originality in story telling.
I would suggest that some of the sexism your seeing in games isn't about ignorance or prejudice, it's simply another consequence of poor writing in mainstream games.

You raise an interesting point, and I will answer it. I have no doubt that a lot of the sexism is rooted in laziness, I don't think the whole, say, Bethesda writing team are all sexist woman haters, I just think they're pulling on common tropes. What's interesting is why these tropes exist and the implicit meanings behind the tropes.

And your probably right that strong and unemotional is an easy trope and lazy writing. I hadn't considered this, and you're probably right, this stereotypically male persona is a pretty easy thing to write.

Also, I think your whole evil guy stereotype is a bit flawed; wizards are abundant in protagonists and good guys, even being a standard class in most rpgs. Most of them are portrayed as wise and intellectual people, both very good attributes. Take Gandalf for example; he doesn't seem to fit into this manly ideal, but he's a hugely well received and idealised male character.

Again, fair enough, I didn't look at this point enough. Villains in stories (though not so much in videogames since videogames need a good boss fight), usually human villains, are weak, not very good fighters. The idea is that if they'd face the protagonist like a "real man", then they'd lose. Think of classic villains, The Joker, (usually! Don't kill me Batman lovers!), doesn't fight, if we go back to LotR, then Saruman, he doesn't fight while Gandalf does (in the movies at least, I haven't read the books). An unwillingness to fight, or to get others to do your fighting rather than do it personally, is generally correlated with villainy in stories.

Is it not just a case of trying to portray a women's figure in a physically exceptional way, which is what muscles are well known to do, that the "burly" image appears. It just so happens that men also need muscles to be shown as physically strong as well. Athletic bodies would seem to fall into the sexy category, being one of the most sexualised figures.

Burly doesn't just mean muscly, I admit I chose the category title rather poorly. It's about being tough, brooding, as close to the ULTIMATE MAN stereotype from the men's list. And yes, athletic bodies can be both sexy and burly, it depends on how they are portrayed.

I'm a guy, so I obviously have much less understanding of sexism against females than any woman, but I don't believe the "women needing to be manly to be accepted" concept exists. Indeed, I don't think the term "manly" exists, surely since men and women are of equal capabilities, distinguishing something as unwomanly because men are known to portray it is the very definition of sexism. You seem to be suggesting women need to be portrayed as something utterly different in order to be shown as equal.

I'd say manly most definitely exists, society is really very clear on it. From the very early ages, dolls are for girls, toy swords are for boys, because fighting and swords are manly. Distinguishing things as unwomanly because men are stereotypically known for doing it is the the definition of sexism, but I'm not the first to do it. Rather, I'm commenting on the fact that society has internalised these distinctions between manly and womanly and expresses them in the form of stereotypes.

And our current views of what is manly is not the only way to portray heroes. You mention unemotional, but why can't we have a very emotional hero? Why don't we see more poets or musicians as heroes? Why must they be big and strong, the less strong can still fire guns or command troops or work out puzzles? Why are their very, very few disabled heroes?

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

"fucking ovendodger," he adds

I don't know whether to find this man and prevent him from procreating and passing on such views or give him some sort of congratulations on coming up with an insult so absurd in its hatefulness that it made me smirk
Oh, no, wait, its the first one. Its definitely the first one

 

[Kahunaburger]

I'm just tired of egalitarianism, tolerance, and respect making their way into games.

This is a thing now? Please point me to all these games you're apparently playing that respectfully portray individuals of a wide range of backgrounds.

 

[Angryman101]

Things are BETTER? Things are worse than fucking every. More women are unhappy, and more are on antidepressants than ever before. The only people things today are good for are attractive, intelligent men. Why is that? Because feminism. So, good job to feminists, I guess. lol.

Aaaaaand let's all stop feeding this guy. Any semblance of credibility has been lost. Good job.

I think you're implying that I'm a troll, but I'm not. Just a guy who hates feminism.

 

[Evan Waters]

The thing is, if "everyone already knows" that sexism in video games is a problem- why does the subject still attract such hostility? Why do people feel as though they personally are being attacked and have to respond in such a scorched earth manner?

Nobody is going to take all the cheesecake models away, nobody is going to make all male characters weak, nobody is coming for your copy of Bayonetta. (Hell, Bayonetta often gets let off easy in discussions about video game gender roles because it's so plainly absurd even by video game standards.) There's no reason for this hostility. Feminists take issue with sexism in other media too, it's not like they drove all the pretty girls off TV.

(Hell, feminists have a variety of perspectives on how this stuff works and should be handled! The image of someone completely opposed to sex in media or pretty women on TV is largely a stereotype of the second-wave feminists of the 70s- some of whom were radical, some of whom weren't- but third wave feminism explicitly acknowledges the diversity in a movement that's defined only by "women should be treated as equals". There are even feminists who are pro-porn. You can't generalize.)

As for the 70K, I see it as little different from a novelist getting an advance. The money is not for production values, it's to live on. It's support so she can keep doing this without a day job. If you don't like what she does with that time, fine, but I don't like a lot of the books that get written either. Doesn't mean she doesn't deserve to at least try.

As for "It's Youtube", well, that's a problem, see. It may not be a new problem, but a continuing problem is still a problem.

 

[Eamar]

It's fine, you didn't offend me or anything, I just don't like it when people pretend they didn't mean to insult as a means to cover their asses. If that honestly wasn't your intention then I also apologize for accusing it of you.

I understand, appreciated

Alyx also seems pretty tall, slim and tall, give her a boob job and lose the jacket and swap the jeans for shorts and I don't think she would look that different from Lara.

That's a hell of a lot of alterations you've got to make there, so I'm still claiming success.

Bayonetta as to my knowledge (not a console gamer) is pretty much all about sexualization, doesn't really seem like a fair comparison.

True enough, she's just one of the more well-known examples hence why she popped into my head.

Anyway, regarding breast size (in reference to Lara) having large breats isn't exactly unnatural, my fiance has pretty large breasts, bigger then Laras, all natural.

Again, agreed. Let's just say I have... first hand experience of this sort of thing. Bigger boobs are not in and of themselves a bad thing, it's when they're dressed up in a chainmail bikini or some sort of belt that it becomes a problem (depending on the context of the game, of course).

Alyx seems to be comparitively flat-chested...wait, I kind of lost track of what point I was going to make. Anyway, Alyx is fine, that's why it felt it worth bringing up other Valve Characters. If women can complain about stereotypes in games, I can too

And bringing the developer into this proves nothing. The point of me giving these examples was so I could demonstrate the sort of characters I'd like to see more of.

I didn't do so to prove a point, more to illustrate that Alyx pretty much has to be a good Character because none of the males that Valve makes could carry the game all too well.

Fair enough.

Samus: I deliberately specified original Samus. That is, pre-Other M Samus. You say you're aware of the controversy, so you'll know the zero suit and her character in general in that game is considered an insult to the original character. So your comments are all valid, but do not relate to my example. And no she doesn't speak, she's another example of a silent protagonist. The point is that, once her gender was revealed, male players were not alienated by a female PC.

Which I don't find all that surprising considering that the better the ending the less Samus would be wearing.

Touche. However, in subsequent games this was not the case, and plenty of men played those games fully aware of her gender, even becoming dedicated fans who were insulted by Other M.

Kat: I think you're scraping the bottom of the barrel here. That's not meant to be an insult, it just seems like you're reaching.

Actually that was a honest question, don't you think that the (in my eyes apparent) role reversal could be considered pandering?

I have to say that thought hadn't crossed my mind at all. While "techy" stuff has been traditionally male-dominated that's less and less the case as time moves on. I'd have thought it could be considered more "pandering" in terms of role-reversal if they'd made her some sort of bodyguard or gunner or something. And even I'm not convinced it'd be pandering. In short, no I don't agree with you on this one. Frankly, I don't think Halo (much as I love it) is that subtle. Interesting thought though.

Wynne: what sort of criticism is that? Yes, that's a woman. An old woman who hasn't been prettied up. What's your point?

Simply that she doesn't look like a woman, not like a woman that is old and hasn't been prettied up, simply not like a woman, more like a late change male to female transgender. Shouldn't a woman atleast look like a woman? She isn't simply ugly or something, she just doesn't seem to have a womanly face, that looks like a mans face to me.

I think that has more to do with the game's graphics/aesthetics than anything. I did notice that a lot of the faces looked a bit odd up close.

Spoiler: Any better?

I'd read it, honestly, but TVTropes is probably the best site to distract me and I have a few 3D Models to finish.

I'll admit, I was reticent about linking to TVTropes since this is a common problem

Thanks for being reasonable and accepting my apologies. I'm always glad when I see proof that the internet doesn't have to devolve into anger and flaming...

 

[CosmicCommander]

I'm just tired of egalitarianism, tolerance, and respect making their way into games.

This is a thing now? Please point me to all these games you're apparently playing that respectfully portray individuals of a wide range of backgrounds.

Seriously? I don't think I need to sincerely answer that question. More and more games, coming from the younger fringe are more reflective of our sickeningly dull reality. I won't comprehensively list the indie games, as those are mostly respectful and pleasant to everyone and everything. But stuff like LA Noire (it's a pretty realistic and respectful portrayal of the attitudes of the time), Bethesda's product, Heavy Rain, and the like of stuff pouring from the perhaps more sophisticated development houses is all over making everyone happy.

I really don't see a need to point all the games out that are more and more respectful to everyone. I know a lot of people want to try to make out the discrimination of the industry is still rampant, and it is in some quarters, but let's not say there's no tolerant content on the market.

 

[Pandabearparade]

Jesus, remember the days when people would respond to invalid arguments with valid rebuttals instead of personal attacks and a platter full of logical fallacies?

Me neither, but that would be nice wouldn't it?

 

[Reincarnatedwolfgod]

i am not going any part of this sexism "debate" shit storm
but really this project got about $60000 when the minimum was 6000
what gullible fuckers gave money her that money?

i know how to do what she is being paid for
and it requires the internet and if you look on the internet and you will find everything her documentry will have for free

what i could find in a short amount of time

first here are the tropes
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlwaysFemale

now how to make a true female character
http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/true-female-characters

there you saved your self money

 

[Kahunaburger]

I'm just tired of egalitarianism, tolerance, and respect making their way into games.

This is a thing now? Please point me to all these games you're apparently playing that respectfully portray individuals of a wide range of backgrounds.

Seriously? I don't think I need to sincerely answer that question. More and more games, coming from the younger fringe are more reflective of our sickeningly dull reality.

LA Noire (it's a pretty realistic and respectful portrayal of the attitudes of the time),

Haven't played that one, so I can't comment.

Bethesda's product,

Elder Scrolls games were relatively egalitarian since Morrowind, so I'm not sure this can be raised as an example of a "new" phenomenon.

Heavy Rain,

Not based on what I've heard about it.

let's not say there's no tolerant content on the market.

This I agree with. But it's not the norm, and I'm not quite sure how someone gets tired of games not having a particular type of bad writing.

 

[Eamar]

Things are BETTER? Things are worse than fucking every. More women are unhappy, and more are on antidepressants than ever before. The only people things today are good for are attractive, intelligent men. Why is that? Because feminism. So, good job to feminists, I guess. lol.

Aaaaaand let's all stop feeding this guy. Any semblance of credibility has been lost. Good job.

I think you're implying that I'm a troll, but I'm not. Just a guy who hates feminism.

Well, if you're not just trying to get a reaction you sure as hell better be prepared to back up your claims about how feminism has caused women's lives to get worse somehow. Are you saying we'd all be happier if we were shackled to the kitchen and reduced to baby factories? Because feminism started in a time where women who weren't happy about this were literally treated as mentally ill.

To address one claim you made, more women (more people period) are on anti-depressants than ever before because anti-depressants are more available and more readily prescribed than ever before. If you can link those facts to feminism, be my guest. Until then I'll leave this here:

Spoiler

 

[AverageExtraordinair]

I'm just tired of egalitarianism, tolerance, and respect making their way into games.

This is a thing now? Please point me to all these games you're apparently playing that respectfully portray individuals of a wide range of backgrounds.

I don't think he was serious. Im actually pretty sure that he was just being factitious

edit: im wrong

 

[Rakor]

Whoa, simmer down Nancy. It just kind of sticks out a bit especially when there's a closeup on the controller. I apparently also find the fingernails a bit gaudy, I guess. Now, as all you've done is mock a side point I made, I don't know which side of the fence you are on in this issue. But, you are making the assertion that the existence of elements of a stereotype does not proclaim acceptance of said stereotype. So what's wrong with video game characters exhibiting them. Princess Peach is not a portrayal of women, she is a portrayal of one fictional woman, named Princess Peach. Why is it an issue that she wears heels (among other things but you get what I mean).

Lol, I did get a bit hyperbolic. Pardon me, I've been bored senseless all day.

The problem isn't that these tropes exist at all, it's that female characters contribution to gaming can be pretty much summed up in one word (`Boing`). Real people are more complicated than that. Hardly anyone really conforms to one stereotype.
Female characters with a bit more depth and variety really is what I'm pushing for. Moviebob's Gender Games episode did a good job of addressing that.

Alright, then what is the point of this girl making videos about current stereotypical archetypes. If the issue is needing more deep female characters, then what is this girl making video's to "break down" known archetypes for? On that note......they're known archetypes, what is there to break down if they're already the popular archetypes. Wouldn't a kickstarter be better used to like, make a new game or help fund a company(s) making a game with a deep female protagonist. How is getting the internet to pay her to make a handful of ranting videos helping diversify the field.

I mean agreed, deeper, less formulaic characters are good. Brave looks kinda cool. I cringed too seeing that it's already a doll. Point is being against this particular girl's project.

I would like to see a game with a true female protagonist, as opposed to character created female leads like in Mass Effect. Someone make a game of the manga of Nausica and the Valley of the Wind. That would be rather amazing.

Unrelated to the quote response:

Wow the post above where I'm currently typing is angry as hell. Chill pills people. Vulgar language does not assist either side here. Love when people turn around and stereotype the gaming community in response to stereotypes. Someone saying f the gaming community in response to some being jerks is kinda putting yourself on the same level. Do I think all women belong in the kitchen? No. Unless they like to cook. Then good on ya.

On a related note I totally thought "ovendodger" was a crack about women and kitchens, at first. I am feel dumb.

 

[Kahunaburger]

I would like to see a game with a true female protagonist, as opposed to character created female leads like in Mass Effect. Someone make a game of the manga of Nausica and the Valley of the Wind. That would be rather amazing.

Haha, could you see someone trying to float that one by John Riccitiello?

"What do you mean we don't have a roided-up male to put on the box? But if she's on a glider, how can she take cover? Female characters wear practical armor when the situation calls for it? There's no final boss? We can't turn this into a franchise?"

 

[Phasmal]

Alright, then what is the point of this girl making videos about current stereotypical archetypes. If the issue is needing more deep female characters, then what is this girl making video's to "break down" known archetypes for? On that note......they're known archetypes, what is there to break down if they're already the popular archetypes. Wouldn't a kickstarter be better used to like, make a new game or help fund a company(s) making a game with a deep female protagonist. How is getting the internet to pay her to make a handful of ranting videos helping diversify the field.

I mean agreed, deeper, less formulaic characters are good. Brave looks kinda cool. I cringed too seeing that it's already a doll. Point is being against this particular girl's project.

I would like to see a game with a true female protagonist, as opposed to character created female leads like in Mass Effect. Someone make a game of the manga of Nausica and the Valley of the Wind. That would be rather amazing.

Unrelated to the quote response:

Wow the post above where I'm currently typing is angry as hell. Chill pills people. Vulgar language does not assist either side here. Love when people turn around and stereotype the gaming community in response to stereotypes. Someone saying f the gaming community in response to some being jerks is kinda putting yourself on the same level. Do I think all women belong in the kitchen? No. Unless they like to cook. Then good on ya.

On a related note I totally thought "ovendodger" was a crack about women and kitchens, at first. I am feel dumb.

I was never really here to debate her project. You might not see the point in it but obviously some people do. And perhaps breaking down tropes can show perhaps why they are easy to fall into and how to avoid lazy stereotyping *shrug*, but I'm just guessing. I don't get why people are getting so angry about her setting this project up. It's her free time, it's not your money if you donate.

Either way, the response is just bleh, and our community does have some probelms. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I've never been called a slut for reading a book or going to see a movie.

Sucks, but is true. It doesn't bother me as much as it used to though, all I think is if me gaming pisses off assholes then I should do it more. =P
And I'm aware not all our community is like this- but it's often overlooked and many people even insist it's not a problem any more.

 

[Kayevcee]

I've watching some of the previous FF videos, and while I'm not 100% convinced the presenter is the ideal candidate for this project, I'm happy that it's being attempted and looking forward to seeing the finished results.

As horrifying as the misogyny is, I understand that these keyboard-chewers come with the territory. Write about feminism in computer games (fighting games in particular) and you'll attract various disparaging comments from the knuckle dragging fraternity. What I don't get is- where does the "Jew" stuff come from? Is it like a side-effect of Godwin's Law, that as the number of haters in a single arena increases, the likelihood of anti-jewish hatespeech approaches 100%?

-Nick

 

[Angryman101]

Well, if you're not just trying to get a reaction you sure as hell better be prepared to back up your claims about how feminism has caused women's lives to get worse somehow. Are you saying we'd all be happier if we were shackled to the kitchen and reduced to baby factories? Because feminism started in a time where women who weren't happy about this were literally treated as mentally ill.

To address one claim you made, more women (more people period) are on anti-depressants than ever before because anti-depressants are more available and more readily prescribed than ever before. If you can link those facts to feminism, be my guest. Until then I'll leave this here:

Spoiler

To expand on my comment, I actually have a bit of a love/hate relationship with feminism, in a way. It's great for my sex life, but I don't enjoy what it's doing to society and women.
And I've already had this argument multiple times, I don't have time for it right now. I do have studies and sources for my claims, I just do not have the energy or the patience to look for them.

 

[Kahunaburger]

And I've already had this argument multiple times, I don't have time for it right now. I do have studies and sources for my claims, I just do not have the energy or the patience to look for them.

Why is it that in every feminism debate on this website the "I have evidence, I promise, I just don't have it with me" people are always on the anti-feminism side?

 

[darth gditch]

I don't want to inhabit this (YouTube) cyberspace anymore.

 

[Angryman101]

And I've already had this argument multiple times, I don't have time for it right now. I do have studies and sources for my claims, I just do not have the energy or the patience to look for them.

Why is it that in every feminism debate on this website the "I have evidence, I promise, I just don't have it with me" people are always on the anti-feminism side?

You obviously have not seen my debates.

To expand on my comment, I actually have a bit of a love/hate relationship with feminism, in a way. It's great for my sex life, but I don't enjoy what it's doing to society and women.
And I've already had this argument multiple times, I don't have time for it right now. I do have studies and sources for my claims, I just do not have the energy or the patience to look for them.

Ahh the "I'm too lazy to back up my bullshit claims" defense. Classic.

You caught me, buddy. You did it. I am defeated. My evil, anti-feminist ways are dying as we speak.