Kill Your Darlings

[LaoJim]

Spoiler: I'll put most of my post in one big spoiler. This is replies to people which involve spoiling Books 4 and 5

That's very debatable! He's at the wall with both a Woods Witch (Morna White Mask) and a Red Priestess, after all.

Not to mention that the prologue tells us that Wargs can project their souls into animals at the point of their death, and Jon's last words are "Ghost"
(It also makes you wonder if sewing Grey Wind's head onto Robbs body was one of Frey's better ideas, though I'm not sure GRRM is going down that road)

I didn't see any benefits in Red Wedding for the story. Deyeneris line gets more and more stupid, all the new characters introduced in Book IV are not interesting. I don't know where will it lead, but in the end of the saga, I'm afraid, I won't care.

It has the benefit of being unexpected. It takes Cat from being an ordinary mother to a vengeful monster. (It's a shame we haven't seen more of her in books 4&5 to move this forward) It makes the point that wars are not always won on the battlefield

The only characters in Game of Thrones that are by this point essentially contractually immortal and cant be killed off are Daenerys Targaryen, Jon Snow, Tyrion Lannister and Victarion Greyjoy.

This is an interesting list, but I think it's too short. Thing is anyone, including Dany and Jon could die as the last book comes to a close, perhaps making the ultimate sacrifice to save Westeros. Similarly GRRM could kill a major character in a way that makes little narrative sense, just to maintain his reputation. But given that they've still got story arcs to play out I think the following characters should fairly safe.

Arya -> It wouldn't make sense to kill her before she has done at least one assassination that influences the plot.
Bran -> Is on his way to being not only contractually but actually immortal, he will have a role to play.
Theon -> Will be needed to overturn the Kingmoot and get rid of Euron, I don't see this happening until Victarion is back
Sam -> Has to study to be a maester in book 6 and then presumably put that knowledge to work in book 7.
Jamie -> Not in a great position to at the end of book 5, but Cat killing him would be too simple, he still needs a book or two to do something with his new found sense of moral purpose.

Every character serves a function, to explain the story and the world to the audience, once that function is fulfilled, you can write them out

Yes, what's interesting about GRRM is the amount of time his spends with characters that will eventually be written out. People work on that basis that the more time an author spends on a character the less likely they are to die (at least until the final act). In retrospect it is obvious why Robb doesn't have his own POV chapters in the book and his story is told from other people's perspective. (It'll be interesting to see in GRRM goes back to a Cat point of view in the final books).

To the Escapist saying that Brienne's storyline in book 4 is pointless, (sorry can't seem to find your post to quote it). The Brienne chapters in that book aren't great, they drag on and are nowhere near as good as those in book 3. They are dramatically necessarily though. Brienne needs to have, not only delivered Jamie to KL, but have dedicated her life to finding Sansa. That way when she returns to Cat we can see Cat has become a monster more interested in vengence than the truth.
(There is also something very important revealed while she is at the abbey, which is subtly hidden but most hardcore fans (not me, I missed it all three times I read it) have picked up on, which will no doubt be shown clearly in the next book)

I hate when people say that half of the cast was killed off when only two major characters were killed.

Yes it's by no means half. In the book another major character dies at about the same time, but I don't think this has happened on the TV show. Since a large proportion of Robb's army and bannermen are killed it does feel like more than two.

I'm not gonna lie, I don't see the attraction to Game of Thrones. I had to stop reading once I realized the story wasn't going anywhere and Martin basically admitted he just makes it up as he goes along. I don't know, it's alright, just not excellent.

When did he say this? Of all the epic books and tv series over the years, Martin's seems to be the one that is planned out the most. He's probably added a whole bunch of detail about the War of Five Kings that wasn't in his original outline, but I don't think he's changed anything major about the main character's story arcs (There was supposed to be 5 year gap which he ditched). If anything, for me, the main reason why Books 4 and 5 were weaker than the first three was because of his sticking to his outline even when it wasn't working well dramatically.

 

[GonzoGamer]

Yea, I got really despondent after Radar died too.

 

[Fox12]

Spoiler: I'll put most of my post in one big spoiler. This is replies to people which involve spoiling Books 4 and 5

I'm not gonna lie, I don't see the attraction to Game of Thrones. I had to stop reading once I realized the story wasn't going anywhere and Martin basically admitted he just makes it up as he goes along. I don't know, it's alright, just not excellent.

When did he say this? Of all the epic books and tv series over the years, Martin's seems to be the one that is planned out the most. He's probably added a whole bunch of detail about the War of Five Kings that wasn't in his original outline, but I don't think he's changed anything major about the main character's story arcs (There was supposed to be 5 year gap which he ditched). If anything, for me, the main reason why Books 4 and 5 were weaker than the first three was because of his sticking to his outline even when it wasn't working well dramatically.

Spoiler: I'll put most of my post in one big spoiler. This is replies to people which involve spoiling Books 4 and 5

He's said this across multiple interviews. When he started writing, he said he had no idea where the story was going. He just wrote, and said he wanted to see where it was going.

On another occasion he said that there are two types of writers. The architects, who plan everything out before hand, and the people who figure it out as they go along. He then said he fell into the second camp. This seems pretty clear to me in the writing, where large sections of writing can pass with little to no plot advancement whatsoever. The aforementioned Brianne chapter are good examples.

Someone asked him in an interview whether he knew how the books were going to end. He said that even though he had a general idea of where he wanted the books to go, he had no idea how on earth he was going to get there. Compare this to J.K. Rowling, who plotted the entire story before hand, and spent seven years figuring out how she wanted to end the story before publishing her first book.

The evidence is in the books as well. It was supposed to be a trilogy, but the series grew and got too big for him, and now it's supposed to be atleast seven books. It takes him longer and longer to release books, and he can't make release goals, which tells me he's trying to figure out how he's actually going to bring the series to a satisfying conclusion. In all seriousness he should have finished two books ago. Tolkien wrote LotR, The Hobbit, thousands of years of history, all the appendices, and several languages in fewer pages than Martin has already written.

This all makes since when you realize it reads like a t.v. show... which is what Martin spent most of his career writing. Every book is like a season. This is why it adapts so well to t.v. Most television writers plan their shows out one season at a time, with few exception, and make the story up as they go along. Lost, The Sopranos, ect. This is what Martin is used to, which is why it carried over to his books.

He's not terrible, he's just not concise or good at planning out his work. There's a lot of filler and empty space. Fun empty space, but empty space none the less. His work is like McDonalds. It tastes good, but it's filled with empty calories.

 

[Drummodino]

Silly Erin, you are giving up to soon the series without giving it a chance to see how it turns out.

I mean, despite I haven't read the manga... so far in the Attack on Titan anime-
Half of the characters died. Not saying whom, but even important ones were just obliterated over the course of a second and there's no way of reviving them. That's why I love this anime because it's not like DBZ, or Naruto, or that sort of bullcrap.

Dude your avatar is freaking awesome

OT: I think people who give up on series after events like the Red Wedding are petty and childish.

 

[LaoJim]

He's said this across multiple interviews. When he started writing, he said he had no idea where the story was going. He just wrote, and said he wanted to see where it was going.

I've read quite a few interviews from Martin and I've never had that feeling about him. He has said that he dreamed (or maybe day-dreamed) about a boy witnessing an execution and started to write from there. However before writing the first book he had a clear idea of what was going to happen. As he started to write, his story has grown and he realised he needed more books to tell the story properly, but there is no suggestion that he doesn't know exactly where the story is going to end up.

Its true that he is having problems delivering books on time. I think it is more to do with the fact that after the opening act, most stories have a more muted middle to set up another conclusion. He's found it difficult to make 4 and 5 interesting AND set up all the characters to where they need to be to tell 6 and 7 in the way he wants. Those books have too many characters (including too many new characters).

If you go back and read the books again it is amazing how much is foreshadowed in earlier books, suggesting that Martin knew exactly what he was doing.

Spoiler: Some examples

In book 2, Dany sees a vision of a banquet involving a man with a wolves head, clearing showing the Red Wedding from book 3.
In book 1, Barristam Selmy is the only one who supports Ned in not wanting to assassinate Dany and is allowed to escape (If it was just for plot purposes he could have been killed to show how evil Joff was) Clearly Martin is planning his meet-up with Dany at the end of book 2.
In book 1, Ned sends Dondarrington to lead men against the Mountain. In book 2 it is clear that the Bloody Mummers are looking for Dondarrington but we still don't know who he is. It's only in book 3 that we we get the point of the Dondarrington storyline and its wider implications.

One of the things I loved about re-reading the books is the tournament in the middle of book 1. On the first reading when Martin list a whole series of endless of the combatants. When you re-read it, you know who everyone is and their relative strengths and weeknesses and it is really fun to see who beats who. There's so much attention to detail and rich background that I don't believe Martin is just winging it.

 

[Doug]

Kill Your Darlings

Oh no! PLOT DEVELOPMENT!

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Erm, I think the problem people have with George R R Martin's books is that everyone even remotely likable dies, or has something bad happen to them (at least, from what I've seen/heard so far).

It invokes, well, this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarknessInducedAudienceApathy

I'm still watching Game Of Thrones when it returns, but I feel like I can't invest emotions in any of the characters incase they die. Or have bits hacked off them.

 

[Lunar Templar]

kinda reminds me of the people who stopped watching Gurren Laggen cause Kamina died, >.> he kinda wasn't the main character ya know ....

Spoiler

Thing is with GoT, nothing good has happened to the only House in Westeros who aren't immoral dickheads. Red Wedding was a Giant Mallet in the already staked heart of those who want the "good guys" to win.

This isn't like Madoka or TGGL where there is some consolation of hope, the Red Wedding is Winston being walked into Room 101.

I was talking about Erin's reaction, not the books every ones been going back and forth about. Not read them, not going to, but from what I've heard this Red Wedding sound like little more then a cheap shock value stunt

 

[Mr Companion]

Hit the nail on the head. Thats people all right!
'This show effected me emotionally, therefore its shit. I shall never watch it again.'

 

[Fox12]

He's said this across multiple interviews. When he started writing, he said he had no idea where the story was going. He just wrote, and said he wanted to see where it was going.

I've read quite a few interviews from Martin and I've never had that feeling about him. He has said that he dreamed (or maybe day-dreamed) about a boy witnessing an execution and started to write from there. However before writing the first book he had a clear idea of what was going to happen. As he started to write, his story has grown and he realised he needed more books to tell the story properly, but there is no suggestion that he doesn't know exactly where the story is going to end up.

Its true that he is having problems delivering books on time. I think it is more to do with the fact that after the opening act, most stories have a more muted middle to set up another conclusion. He's found it difficult to make 4 and 5 interesting AND set up all the characters to where they need to be to tell 6 and 7 in the way he wants. Those books have too many characters (including too many new characters).

If you go back and read the books again it is amazing how much is foreshadowed in earlier books, suggesting that Martin knew exactly what he was doing.

Spoiler: Some examples

In book 2, Dany sees a vision of a banquet involving a man with a wolves head, clearing showing the Red Wedding from book 3.
In book 1, Barristam Selmy is the only one who supports Ned in not wanting to assassinate Dany and is allowed to escape (If it was just for plot purposes he could have been killed to show how evil Joff was) Clearly Martin is planning his meet-up with Dany at the end of book 2.
In book 1, Ned sends Dondarrington to lead men against the Mountain. In book 2 it is clear that the Bloody Mummers are looking for Dondarrington but we still don't know who he is. It's only in book 3 that we we get the point of the Dondarrington storyline and its wider implications.

One of the things I loved about re-reading the books is the tournament in the middle of book 1. On the first reading when Martin list a whole series of endless of the combatants. When you re-read it, you know who everyone is and their relative strengths and weeknesses and it is really fun to see who beats who. There's so much attention to detail and rich background that I don't believe Martin is just winging it.

I got the impression that he had a general ending in mind, but he's having trouble getting there. My primary concern is the amount of clutter in his works that could be trimmed down. I often feel like I read an entire novel, and yet very little happened. The exception would be the first one, which was actually quite good. But then... everyone jut felt horrible irrelevant. Arya is my favorite character, but she hasn't done much. I counted, and she was kidnapped no less than five times. It felt like a convoluted excuse to move her around the map. Brianne is also interesting, but like Arya, all she's done is travel from one end of the map to the other, and she hasn't really advanced the plot.

Martin does have his strengths though. He writes brilliant characters, even if he doesn't always do much with them, and he's quite consistent with his existing lore. I just feel like the whole plot could have been told in three or four large books if he had cut out all the fluff, and they would have been better for it.

 

[LaoJim]

I got the impression that he had a general ending in mind, but he's having trouble getting there. My primary concern is the amount of clutter in his works that could be trimmed down. I often feel like I read an entire novel, and yet very little happened. The exception would be the first one, which was actually quite good. But then... everyone jut felt horrible irrelevant. Arya is my favorite character, but she hasn't done much. I counted, and she was kidnapped no less than five times. It felt like a convoluted excuse to move her around the map. Brianne is also interesting, but like Arya, all she's done is travel from one end of the map to the other, and she hasn't really advanced the plot.

Martin does have his strengths though. He writes brilliant characters, even if he doesn't always do much with them, and he's quite consistent with his existing lore. I just feel like the whole plot could have been told in three or four large books if he had cut out all the fluff, and they would have been better for it.

Yeah, that's all fair enough. I watched the first two seasons of GoT then went and read the books and so Arya seemed to spend a huge amount of time "on the road". Brienne's story is fairly tight in book 3, but very unfocused in book 4. The problem for Arya is that she is used to set up the story for other characters in the book (Dondarrington and the Hound especially) without advancing her own development, which is a shame as she's a great character in her own right.

 

[BaronUberstein]

Well, to be fair, people act like George RR Martin invented many things. . .

Do not get me wrong, I do like the novels, as a whole, but they are largely inspired by Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Water Margin, two great classics of Chinese literature. In short, he is not as surprising and original as some people make him out to be.

It's still well written and fun to read. Things don't need to be absolutely original to be good.

 

[Skeleon]

Ah. Yes, everybody talks about this show. Should've guessed that was what it was a reference to. Either that or Game of Thrones, of course.