The scene is tacked on, adds nothing to the narritive and was already admitted to be added to give the audience unfamiliar with the character more reason to care when she gets shot. This was the only reason for it. That brings up a whole other host of problems in that the only way they could think of to get people to care for Babs is to say that she wanted to and did Fuck Bruce, see she's important, she fucked Batman. And Oh god all of the scenes with her in the library talking about this man she's seeing to her gay friend who's trying to hook her up with guys. I just wanted to fuggin fast forward to her getting shot for the actual story to begin.
Killing Joke Film Controversy SPOILERS
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Cliche? Yes.Orga777 said:
Trope? Yes, 100% agree; but trope does not mean "bad", even TV Tropes will tell you that.
Nonsensical? Not at all. Sexual tension between partners is a very real thing and unless you are either asexual or have never worked a day in your life you'd know that.
Could it have been done in other ways, and better? Sure. I don't feel it was Macbeth by any stretch of the imagination, but it wasn't a crime against humanity, either. /shrug
I'm in agreement with you. I saw it last night, it was a lazy trope, but it works for what it is and was pretty obviously done for people who are not familiar with Batman comics to make a greater connection to Barbara. It also works to give Batman more of a reason to be enraged when he encounters the Joker, which helps to add more impact to what actually happens at the end.kris40k said:
I thought The Killing Joke was absolutely phenomenal. DC keeps putting out quality cartoons and this is among their best(with year one and dark knight returns). I loved the original graphich novel and the cartoon adaptation is very faithful but also acknowledges what would work in a cartoon and what would not. The changes they subsequently made to the story were so skillfully done that I almost favor them over the original(similair as TDKR).
As for the 'sex scene' I didn't feel it was out of place. Barbara looks up to Batman and it's fairly obvious his dominance and stature turns her on in some way. Sure, Batman(Bruce) is older but it's not like he's some out of shape, balding, couch potato. Naturally he wouldn't be able to resist when Barbara came on to him and despite Batman's stoic presense the affection he felt for Barbara really added vulnerability to the character that made the story even more impactful.
I love The Killing Joke and was really looking forward to the cartoon and damn did it deliver on all the high expectations I had of it.
As for the 'sex scene' I didn't feel it was out of place. Barbara looks up to Batman and it's fairly obvious his dominance and stature turns her on in some way. Sure, Batman(Bruce) is older but it's not like he's some out of shape, balding, couch potato. Naturally he wouldn't be able to resist when Barbara came on to him and despite Batman's stoic presense the affection he felt for Barbara really added vulnerability to the character that made the story even more impactful.
I love The Killing Joke and was really looking forward to the cartoon and damn did it deliver on all the high expectations I had of it.
I'll also mention that The Killing Joke also made me feel a bit like a bastard considering the context when the Joker made the "coffee table edition" joke and I busted out laughing. I didn't remember if that was in the original. Luckily I wasn't the only one in the audience to do so.
I've been giving it some thought, and there's a more generous interpretation of the "why", and it basically would boil down to trying to change things up a bit from the events of Under the Red Hood and Return of the Joker (And War Games[footnote]I think...was that the one where Steph got the "sidekick hazard treatment"?[/footnote] if we want to count the comics). Ward 1 gets tortured and killed, Ward 2 gets tortured and brainwashed, Ward 3 gets tortured and crippled...it's the same song and dance for Batman each time and the producers may have felt the need to change things up for the Killing Joke by suggesting that they were closer to peers than father-figure and ward. Mind you, I maintain that it was a bad call regardless, but that does provide a competing hypothesis for the 'why' behind it.Orga777 said:
It's not the sexuality that's controversial (the same implied-rape was in the original comic). It's the fact that the writers had thirty minutes or so of new material to fill out Batman and Batgirl's character, and they jumped straight to "and they're banging, so Batman can be double-plus-mad at the Joker."Shinclone said:
It's not a cardinal sin, but it is pretty lazy writing. Batman can have an emotional investment in another character without also investing his dick.
Me, I'm not bothered by it. But I can see why some other people are bothered by it.
Man this is a pretty savage review of Killing Joke
Did anyone see it can anyone confirm because it definitely doesn't make me too keen on ever watching it
http://www.newyorker.com/daily-comment/the-sudden-but-well-deserved-fall-of-rahm-emanuel?mbid=social_facebook
I wish Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill had lent their voices to the Dark Knight Returns instead
Did anyone see it can anyone confirm because it definitely doesn't make me too keen on ever watching it
http://www.newyorker.com/daily-comment/the-sudden-but-well-deserved-fall-of-rahm-emanuel?mbid=social_facebook
I wish Kevin Conroy and Mark Hamill had lent their voices to the Dark Knight Returns instead
Oh, it's not just the sex, though that does disgust me in almost every way. It's why they included it. I get that they wanted to pad the movie out a little, but they went ahead and took the role that Barbara originally had in the comic (You know? The victim!) and somehow made it worse. So now she's the victim and the love interest! The sex scene is added to establish a more intimate relationship between Babs and Bruce. But... why? Was their non-sexual relationship really not good enough? Does the new status quo add anything to the story? No. It doesn't. The rest of the adaptation remains unchanged by this relationship and would be the same without it. It's actually rather insulting that the sex scene is added solely so Bruce can have more of a reason to be pissed at the Joker, because avenging a close friend and ally just isn't enough.Davroth said:
All in an attempt to come off as "Dark", "Serious", and "Mature", but, honestly, it comes off as some teenager's terrible fan-fiction. So edge.
Yeah, but that's something that the original was accused of as well, so it really isn't all that controversial. At least, no more than the comic.Shinclone said:
I'm sorry, what? How is she the love interest? Did we watch the same movie? Just because two people have sex doesn't mean they are going to marry and raise kids in suburbs. They just banged. And it's far from the first time that there was implied sexual tension between the two, I used to read a lot of comics, there was always that undertone. What is gross about two consenting adults having sex? Explain yourself.Captain Marvelous said:
Nowhere did the movie state that Barbara was a motivation for Bruce to hate the Joker. If that was the case, the ending would make a lot less sense. He never brings Barbara into it, it's about the Joker and Batman, and actually nobody else. He's not acting like someone driven by revenge for his love interest, at all.
The writer of the comic has already stated way back that the Joker didn't rape Barbara. That discussion is moot.
So I take it this is what's getting so many panties in a twist?
Yeah, sex, whatever. I'm more interested in that edgy, edgy dialogue.
"You haven't been taken to the edge yet. Of the abyss. The place where you don't care anymore. Where all hope dies. Darkness. No parents."
(Damn it, somebody beat me to it.)
Yeah, sex, whatever. I'm more interested in that edgy, edgy dialogue.
"You haven't been taken to the edge yet. Of the abyss. The place where you don't care anymore. Where all hope dies. Darkness. No parents."
(Damn it, somebody beat me to it.)
Ha. Exactly what I said it was and why it makes sense. Batman is Bojack Horseman level broken.Zhukov said:
The only thing that would of made that scene better is if she had placed his hand on her hip for him.
Also, is that Tara Strong? Cause I'm getting total Twilight Sparkles vibe.
I don't get why on one hand we want women to be strong but on the other as soon as they use their strength to do something we disapprove of we deem them weak malleable playthings at the hands of the man in their life who is taking advantage of their womanly dumbs. In fact, being strong entails being free to make any choices, even choosing submissive vulnerability. The importance is that one is allowed to choose, not what they choose.
And to the ones who say that it is the writers, not her, making the choosing. Yes, welcome to fiction. Same goes for whatever other character, including the strong women that you like. They, too, are written by a writer and designed to tickle someone's fancy in some way. Sometimes its yours, sometimes it isn't, the fact that a writer and not the character makes the choices, however, is ubiquitous. To point it out only here so as to discredit this choice, purely because you dislike it, is intellectually dishonest.
And to the ones who say that it is the writers, not her, making the choosing. Yes, welcome to fiction. Same goes for whatever other character, including the strong women that you like. They, too, are written by a writer and designed to tickle someone's fancy in some way. Sometimes its yours, sometimes it isn't, the fact that a writer and not the character makes the choices, however, is ubiquitous. To point it out only here so as to discredit this choice, purely because you dislike it, is intellectually dishonest.
I don't think it's the sex scene itself is what is getting people mad. It's a combination of the fact that Bruce Wayne can most likely be tried for statutory rape, that he's always been a sort of father figure to Barbra and Dick so this is kind of creepy, and the fact that in the end this was only put in the movie to double down on the Women in Refrigerator trope. In the original comic Barbra's only purpose was to get shot and crippled to torment her father and Batman, and now they're adding another layer to it.Zhukov said:
It's just...LAZY!
EDIT: And before anyone says anything I know that they had a relationship in Batman Beyond but A. they were both much older then and B. everyone hated it then too.
Yeaaaah, I know.erttheking said:
I'm just incapable of getting my dander up over a couple of cartoon characters engaging in some off-screen fucking. It's an adaption I have no investment in of a story I was unimpressed by featuring a character I don't care about who has been portrayed in many ways by many different people. Throw this one on the pile.
I get the argument. In the original story the sole female character was only there to suffer and drive the conflict between three men. (Or die to advance the story of a male in the case of Joker's wife, if she actually existed.) They try to flesh out her role in the animated adapted and end up just doubling down on the "error" of the original by having her exist to fuck the male lead then suffer to drive the conflict blah de blah de blah.
I get it.
But I have no intention of dying on this sad little hill.