Korean Officials Raid Blizzard

BreakdownBoy

New member
Jan 21, 2011
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LegendaryGamer0 said:
Bhaalspawn said:
Worgen said:
Tony2077 said:
Worgen said:
Tony2077 said:
Worgen said:
Tony2077 said:
this is just as bad as the bullshit about the me3 ending when will it end.
Except this actually protects consumer rights as opposed to trying to make a game ending not suck.
the right to be assholes are the only rights i see being protected these days
That is a right just like any other but if you buy something than you fucken expect it to work so they have every right to complain about this and if you don't agree then you shouldn't complain about their complaining.
so if i don't agree with bullshit i should just stick my head in the ground?
How is wanting a game to work bullshit?
The game DOES work, genius. I've been able to play it every day since I bought it. So have most people. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you either have a poor internet service, or your bandwith is being sapped by another program or user.

I have friends with the same connection and similar that still cannot play, since release. Your argument is totally invalid.

You being able to play it doesn't make it holy law of it's operation. What qualifies as "most" in this case?
I live in Africa, this amount of internet speed exists? I hate you people...
 

Leg End

Romans 12:18
Oct 24, 2010
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Bhaalspawn said:
LegendaryGamer0 said:
Bhaalspawn said:
Worgen said:
Tony2077 said:
Worgen said:
Tony2077 said:
Worgen said:
Tony2077 said:
this is just as bad as the bullshit about the me3 ending when will it end.
Except this actually protects consumer rights as opposed to trying to make a game ending not suck.
the right to be assholes are the only rights i see being protected these days
That is a right just like any other but if you buy something than you fucken expect it to work so they have every right to complain about this and if you don't agree then you shouldn't complain about their complaining.
so if i don't agree with bullshit i should just stick my head in the ground?
How is wanting a game to work bullshit?
The game DOES work, genius. I've been able to play it every day since I bought it. So have most people. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you either have a poor internet service, or your bandwith is being sapped by another program or user.

I have friends with the same connection and similar that still cannot play, since release. Your argument is totally invalid.

You being able to play it doesn't make it holy law of it's operation. What qualifies as "most" in this case?
Did you select the speedtest server in your city, or the city where the Blizzard servers are located? That makes a hell of a difference.
You just stated that it was likely either of those two issues.
Tell me where they are located and I will aim my fiber optic cannon in it's direction.
 

Leg End

Romans 12:18
Oct 24, 2010
2,948
58
53
Country
United States
BreakdownBoy said:
LegendaryGamer0 said:
Bhaalspawn said:
Worgen said:
Tony2077 said:
Worgen said:
Tony2077 said:
Worgen said:
Tony2077 said:
this is just as bad as the bullshit about the me3 ending when will it end.
Except this actually protects consumer rights as opposed to trying to make a game ending not suck.
the right to be assholes are the only rights i see being protected these days
That is a right just like any other but if you buy something than you fucken expect it to work so they have every right to complain about this and if you don't agree then you shouldn't complain about their complaining.
so if i don't agree with bullshit i should just stick my head in the ground?
How is wanting a game to work bullshit?
The game DOES work, genius. I've been able to play it every day since I bought it. So have most people. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you either have a poor internet service, or your bandwith is being sapped by another program or user.

I have friends with the same connection and similar that still cannot play, since release. Your argument is totally invalid.

You being able to play it doesn't make it holy law of it's operation. What qualifies as "most" in this case?
I live in Africa, this amount of internet speed exists? I hate you people...
Well, it's very uncommon for us, but yes. :p
Er, if you can get a cable long enough, you can jack into my router and leech. :p
 

grammarye

New member
Jul 1, 2010
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Guy Jackson said:
I thought an EULA couldn't override the law? At least I'm pretty sure that's how it is here (UK). If I agree to an EULA that contradicts my consumer rights, my consumer rights have priority - they override the EULA. Similar to how if person A signs a contract that says person B my murder him, the murder would still be illegal; the law overrides the contract. Right?
Yes and no. IANAL obligatory hand-waving. As a rule you're not far off. Certainly UK consumers are better protected than most.

UK case law is sketchy on the subject specifically of shrink-wrapped or equivalent EULAs. However, the general perception is that the following is legally enshrined re your usual UK consumer rights (this is no way gospel):

If you open a game and discover that the EULA that you just were asked to agree to (because you couldn't read the full terms on the box) is not satisfactory, you are entitled to return & refund the game (because the EULA and the reading of it concludes the contract, and if you don't agree with it, there is no contract and thus you have every right to your money back). The EULA cannot in any way state you are not allowed a refund in such a case. The retailer might, but would be on distinctly shaky ground to outright refuse because the contract is not complete.

If a EULA attempts to cover things that are otherwise covered by existing law, then usually that is also thrown out. For example, copyright infringement clauses in a EULA are pointless, because UK unlawful copying laws supersede them, prosecutions have been brought etc. Equally a company saying 'we must have these clauses in the EULA to protect our business' comes under great scrutiny because it would be argued that UK law already protects business interests (see above).

If a publisher waives liability in a EULA they are usually ok to do so up to a point, but that's not to the extent of 'you bought it, sucks to be you'. The product must always 'live up to expectations'. Plenty of games have been taken back and lawfully refunded when, after a few days & reasonable attempts on the part of the user, the game just doesn't work as expected. That in this case it's that Blizzard's servers suck is irrelevant - the contract was money exchanged for a working game experience, and was not delivered upon. The contract cannot be changed after the event to state 'trust us, it will get better later'.

A lot, as they say, is up to individual case law.

Equally, nothing in a EULA can change the agreement between you and a retailer. If you buy a game online from a UK retailer and are thus covered by the Distance Selling Regulations, you can expect to cancel the contract up to 7 days after the receipt of goods, no questions asked, end of story, do not pass go. They might charge you a restocking fee (provided their cancellation terms state that on the website when you bought it), but nevertheless, you can return the item for a refund.

I have absolutely no idea what South Korean law says, but legal officials don't raid offices on a whim. They will have had to obtain permission and justification will have to have been brought. I imagine therefore that in this case Blizzard's legal team dropped the ball in surmising they could outright refuse refunds.


I would look at the specifics like this:

A user cannot purchase Diablo 3 in advance, and have a guaranteed perfect game experience known a priori. They must take the game home, install it, try it on their net connection, and only then do they get to see if it works.

As such, the provision of a product that is contingent on all those factors can only enter into a contract for purchase provided that the contract is null & void if those factors prevent product use. You cannot sell a product that cannot be used otherwise it is not a valid contract to begin with, based on the legal principle of consideration.

Thus if you determine that your net connection is insufficient for D3 to work correctly, or that Blizzard have not provided you with a suitable experience due to massively overloaded servers, they have not lived up to their end of the contract. Money was not provided as a gift, it was for a received product. It must be usable as intended and that intent is determined by both parties, not by one only. That is the essence of an agreed contract.
 

Kinguendo

New member
Apr 10, 2009
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So now its illegal to be successful... is what I would say if this were a debate about economics and I was determined to be wrong.

But in all seriousness, one of the most successful gaming companies screwing their customers and making them pay for a game they cant even play offline and can barely play online and wont give money back to customers who are not satisfied with the service... that a lot of them havent even recieved. Success in itself isnt wrong, but what people do with such success often is.

Sort your crap out Blizzard and stop being dicks.
 

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Bhaalspawn said:
Worgen said:
Tony2077 said:
Worgen said:
Tony2077 said:
Worgen said:
Tony2077 said:
this is just as bad as the bullshit about the me3 ending when will it end.
Except this actually protects consumer rights as opposed to trying to make a game ending not suck.
the right to be assholes are the only rights i see being protected these days
That is a right just like any other but if you buy something than you fucken expect it to work so they have every right to complain about this and if you don't agree then you shouldn't complain about their complaining.
so if i don't agree with bullshit i should just stick my head in the ground?
How is wanting a game to work bullshit?
The game DOES work, genius. I've been able to play it every day since I bought it. So have most people. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you either have a poor internet service, or your bandwith is being sapped by another program or user.
Apparently you don't know that korea has better internet then america and probably the best net infrastructure in the world, which means that any connection problem is on blizzards side. So go away you fan boy.
 

Epic Fail 1977

New member
Dec 14, 2010
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grammarye said:
Guy Jackson said:
I thought an EULA couldn't override the law? At least I'm pretty sure that's how it is here (UK). If I agree to an EULA that contradicts my consumer rights, my consumer rights have priority - they override the EULA. Similar to how if person A signs a contract that says person B my murder him, the murder would still be illegal; the law overrides the contract. Right?
Yes and no. IANAL obligatory hand-waving. As a rule you're not far off. Certainly UK consumers are better protected than most.

UK case law is sketchy on the subject specifically of shrink-wrapped or equivalent EULAs. However, the general perception is that the following is legally enshrined re your usual UK consumer rights (this is no way gospel):

If you open a game and discover that the EULA that you just were asked to agree to (because you couldn't read the full terms on the box) is not satisfactory, you are entitled to return & refund the game (because the EULA and the reading of it concludes the contract, and if you don't agree with it, there is no contract and thus you have every right to your money back). The EULA cannot in any way state you are not allowed a refund in such a case. The retailer might, but would be on distinctly shaky ground to outright refuse because the contract is not complete.

If a EULA attempts to cover things that are otherwise covered by existing law, then usually that is also thrown out. For example, copyright infringement clauses in a EULA are pointless, because UK unlawful copying laws supersede them, prosecutions have been brought etc. Equally a company saying 'we must have these clauses in the EULA to protect our business' comes under great scrutiny because it would be argued that UK law already protects business interests (see above).

If a publisher waives liability in a EULA they are usually ok to do so up to a point, but that's not to the extent of 'you bought it, sucks to be you'. The product must always 'live up to expectations'. Plenty of games have been taken back and lawfully refunded when, after a few days & reasonable attempts on the part of the user, the game just doesn't work as expected. That in this case it's that Blizzard's servers suck is irrelevant - the contract was money exchanged for a working game experience, and was not delivered upon. The contract cannot be changed after the event to state 'trust us, it will get better later'.

A lot, as they say, is up to individual case law.

Equally, nothing in a EULA can change the agreement between you and a retailer. If you buy a game online from a UK retailer and are thus covered by the Distance Selling Regulations, you can expect to cancel the contract up to 7 days after the receipt of goods, no questions asked, end of story, do not pass go. They might charge you a restocking fee (provided their cancellation terms state that on the website when you bought it), but nevertheless, you can return the item for a refund.

I have absolutely no idea what South Korean law says, but legal officials don't raid offices on a whim. They will have had to obtain permission and justification will have to have been brought. I imagine therefore that in this case Blizzard's legal team dropped the ball in surmising they could outright refuse refunds.


I would look at the specifics like this:

A user cannot purchase Diablo 3 in advance, and have a guaranteed perfect game experience known a priori. They must take the game home, install it, try it on their net connection, and only then do they get to see if it works.

As such, the provision of a product that is contingent on all those factors can only enter into a contract for purchase provided that the contract is null & void if those factors prevent product use. You cannot sell a product that cannot be used otherwise it is not a valid contract to begin with, based on the legal principle of consideration.

Thus if you determine that your net connection is insufficient for D3 to work correctly, or that Blizzard have not provided you with a suitable experience due to massively overloaded servers, they have not lived up to their end of the contract. Money was not provided as a gift, it was for a received product. It must be usable as intended and that intent is determined by both parties, not by one only. That is the essence of an agreed contract.
Great post, thank you for the detailed reply! Are you a solicitor? Just curious.
 

lacktheknack

Je suis joined jewels.
Jan 19, 2009
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Smilomaniac said:
lacktheknack said:
Nope. The customer has the ever-winning move of "screw you, I'm buying something else" ever at the ready, they just don't seem to want to use it.
You mean "Vote with your Wallet"?
It happens all the time, except game companies don't accept that possibility. They blame low sales on piracy and not on their sub-par POS they're trying to push on us.

VWYW is pointless, people wont buy what they don't want and the smart ones just pirate the game before they buy it. I remember Woody Hearn(from /GU) rampaging against piracy and stating that with the VWYW argument, he had the moral high ground. In other words, you're not doing shit to help the situation, you're just taking it from behind acting like a martyr on behalf of the people who pushed you on your knees.

In short, VWYW is being used all the time, it's just not working. The way YOU want it to work is everyone collectively boycotting a game at the same time, which is a utopian wish. Even if it happened, it would be a completely moronic move, because you'd have to buy the game to know what you're boycotting, otherwise you're just protesting on the opinion of others and hearsay.

All I can say is support Trying-then-buying. It should be a customer right, especially gamers who pay enormous amounts of cash for a relatively small forgettable experience.
No.

I refuse to use pirate-based try-before-you-buy, because that adds to the piracy statistics that companies love to quote. Thus, having a demo is a boon to your product.

Also, I don't give a damn one way or the other if there's a "utopian boycott", I just care about acquiring products I like. What I'm saying is if I can tell I won't like it, I won't buy it.

Always-online is NOT opinion or hearsay, it's a verifiable fact. Thus, I won't buy. Also, saying that you don't know the quality of the game is dumb. Find several critics who you have similar opinions to (there's hundreds out there) and always reference them, and/or read user reviews that are between two and ten. Hell, even Metacritic is a thousand times more helpful than people think it is. I've NEVER purchased a game that I regretted purchasing, and I rarely miss out on anything good. I'm not the one being screwed over here.
 

Worgen

Follower of the Glorious Sun Butt.
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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Bhaalspawn said:
Worgen said:
Bhaalspawn said:
Worgen said:
Tony2077 said:
Worgen said:
Tony2077 said:
Worgen said:
Tony2077 said:
this is just as bad as the bullshit about the me3 ending when will it end.
Except this actually protects consumer rights as opposed to trying to make a game ending not suck.
the right to be assholes are the only rights i see being protected these days
That is a right just like any other but if you buy something than you fucken expect it to work so they have every right to complain about this and if you don't agree then you shouldn't complain about their complaining.
so if i don't agree with bullshit i should just stick my head in the ground?
How is wanting a game to work bullshit?
The game DOES work, genius. I've been able to play it every day since I bought it. So have most people. I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you either have a poor internet service, or your bandwith is being sapped by another program or user.
Apparently you don't know that korea has better internet then america and probably the best net infrastructure in the world, which means that any connection problem is on blizzards side. So go away you fan boy.


Ooh, you called me a fanboy! Because that's the worst thing anyone can be called. I'm sure if someone was complaining about the average gamer's precious Valve, then the defence brigade would be doubled.

Aw, did the widdle gamer get all upset because the servers are down on a game?

Grow up. I can see around me that even the gamer community is getting tired of these endless crybaby hissy fits about down servers or DLC or DRM.

Yeah, the game SHOULD be up when you want to play it.

But right now it isn't.

Deal with it.
HA, I don't have to deal with it, I didn't get the stupid game. Maybe this is the wrong site for you if you want to roll over and just let game companies pull whatever shit they like, you could join gamefaqs or even better yet, go join the blizzard forums, I'm sure they would love you there.
 

Mahoshonen

New member
Jul 28, 2008
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Oh, I just realized something: if the purchaser is a minor, then Blizzard has to honor the return no if's and's or buts about it.

(a minor can make void any contract he enters into while still a minor and for a reasonable period of time after becoming an adult. Both the purchase and agreeing to the EULA are contracts, and no amount of fancy language can take away this right
 

lacktheknack

Je suis joined jewels.
Jan 19, 2009
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Smilomaniac said:
lacktheknack said:
No.

I refuse to use pirate-based try-before-you-buy, because that adds to the piracy statistics that companies love to quote. Thus, having a demo is a boon to your product.
Demos are not the same. They never have been, they never will be. You're not adding to their statistics, you're adding to the statistics of people who don't want to get screwed over everytime there's something they're in doubt about buying.

Also, I don't give a damn one way or the other if there's a "utopian boycott", I just care about acquiring products I like. What I'm saying is if I can tell I won't like it, I won't buy it.
Ah yes, the high ground. Come down when you actually want to help change things.

Always-online is NOT opinion or hearsay, it's a verifiable fact. Thus, I won't buy. Also, saying that you don't know the quality of the game is dumb. Find several critics who you have similar opinions to (there's hundreds out there) and always reference them, and/or read user reviews that are between two and ten. Hell, even Metacritic is a thousand times more helpful than people think it is. I've NEVER purchased a game that I regretted purchasing, and I rarely miss out on anything good. I'm not the one being screwed over here.
Keep telling yourself that buddy. Good on ya that you actually found critics worthwhile following, I haven't found a single one that resonates with my opinion and I'm not that picky. But then again, I like to think for myself.
I don't want to change things... I like them the way they are. :D

And yes, you ARE adding to the piracy statistics. Torrents don't differentiate between TBYB and straight out stealing.

Also, demos, while not the same, work if done right. I bought Tomb Raider because of the demo and concept, I bought Rayman 2 because of the demo, I bought Gubble because of the demo, I've bought FATE because of the demo, and on and on and on and on. The death of the standard demo is tragic indeed.
 

dalek sec

Leader of the Cult of Skaro
Jul 20, 2008
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Good, hope they nail Blizzard to the wall for this crap. Always thought that "always need to be online to play the game" was a fething stupid idea.

Well I'm hoping they get their asses handed to them by South Korea.