Korra: Beginings - What did you guys think?

[Gizmo1990]

The 2nd best episode of the series for me, my first being the one where we get to see Aang as an adult kicking arse and taking names.

That being said I don't think that is a good thing. The only two episodes of the series I have enjoyed are the two that have little to none of the main characters of the show. The rest I have found either boring or inoying due to the stupidity and/or incompetence of the characters.

 

[jamail77]

I just have one question. Why wasn't the rest of Korra season 2 like this? Besides beginnings all the other episodes have had relatively weak characters (relatively) and the only redeeming feature was the comedy. I'm starting to think they just spent all their time on those 2 episodes.

I don't agree on that. My problem is that the other episodes are good at certain moments and more than just comedy in those moments. The most frustrating parts of this Book is the lack of character development and wisdom and the relative flimsiness of a plan or two. The last Book had that too, but it got over it, that is, until the Deus ex Machina happened at the very end. Now, it's like the character development started over and got worse for Korra the character. Mako might have even improved as a character 0_o

Here's a reply I posted earlier about the relative competency of the two creators that might help answer your question:

It does quite literally contradict everything we are told in Avatar the Last Airbender about how human got bending powers, but it was a goo enough of a retcon that I am willing to put the other stories behind as folklore/lost history in a pleasant manner.

[SNIP] Despite their misgivings and the problems they have writing on their own without the input of their team (popular fan rumor that they're like the George Lucas of cartoons, great visionaries, but best working with a team that can control or supplement them rather than given full control especially of writing) in regards to Korra's character development, I don't think they'd forget such things and cast them off to the wayside like that.

 

[jamail77]

That is true Red X; that is true.

 

[hermes]

It was pretty good. Easily the best episodes of this season.

I always assumed the original interpretation (that the moon taught people how to waterbend, etc) was more likely a legend. After all, lion-turtles were long forgotten by the time of Aang, and it was proved that they have a larger grasp on bending than any other creature encountered so far.

It also proved to me that technology and culture works in a weird way in Avatar, since they managed to get to early 50s from medieval level in less than a generation, and now I learned that they used to be stuck in that level for thousands of years.

 

[Josh123914]

It was pretty good. Easily the best episodes of this season.

It also proved to me that technology and culture works in a weird way in Avatar, since they managed to get to early 50s from medieval level in less than a generation, and now I learned that they used to be stuck in that level for thousands of years.

The Fire Nation's war machine was a big player in that.

They are effectively a small archipeligo so its no shock that they tried really hard to industrialise on time for their Empire building.
The Earth kingdom's just.... too big. It would probably be a logistical nightmare to share out new weapons across a landmass that large.
Water Tribes are just eeking out a living at the poles, I'm betting most of their time is devoted to getting food (see: Inuit tribes)
As for Air nomads, well what big thing have Tibetans contributed to the world tech-wise? Now factor in that they can fly...
Also this world seems to be ruled by largely Bending family lines, so anything that would give the non-bending peasants a leg up would probably have been condemned in the past.

Its sort like why a world like LOTR or Elder Scrolls have remained pretty much stagnant for centuries.

I mean why would I build a bridge or invent a pulley system to cross a river, when a friendly mage can just teleport me across?

 

[hermes]

It also proved to me that technology and culture works in a weird way in Avatar, since they managed to get to early 50s from medieval level in less than a generation, and now I learned that they used to be stuck in that level for thousands of years.

The Fire Nation's war machine was a big player in that.

They are effectively a small archipeligo so its no shock that they tried really hard to industrialise on time for their Empire building.
The Earth kingdom's just.... too big. It would probably be a logistical nightmare to share out new weapons across a landmass that large.
Water Tribes are just eeking out a living at the poles, I'm betting most of their time is devoted to getting food (see: Inuit tribes)
As for Air nomads, well what big thing have Tibetans contributed to the world tech-wise? Now factor in that they can fly...
Also this world seems to be ruled by largely Bending family lines, so anything that would give the non-bending peasants a leg up would probably have been condemned in the past.

Its sort like why a world like LOTR or Elder Scrolls have remained pretty much stagnant for centuries.

I mean why would I build a bridge or invent a pulley system to cross a river, when a friendly mage can just teleport me across?

But they didn't magically lost the capacity to bend, to justify a technological explosion of such magnitude. If anything, they have mastered it to the point elemental bending is based in personality more than family lines and nationality (which is the explanation I found for having brothers bend different elements), and their lives largely depend on it. Notice how lightning bending became so commonplace they are using them to generate electricity in blue collar works, and metal bending is now a police division, while in the original series they were elite versions of bending only a handful of people in the world could use.

My point is that, according to the new episodes, the very first Avatar lived 10,000 years before in a Japanese/Chinese medieval time-like era (based on the buildings, weapons, clothes and armor), technologically very similar to the one found in the original series; then Aang came (notice how the world didn't change much before and after he was frozen for 100 years) and, in a lot less than a generation (they showed the presence of cars in the time before Kora and even Amon were born), they moved from Chinese-like medieval times (with some exceptions like the drill) to the Chinese pre-World War 2 era technology. They built such a megalopolis in that time, and even have boats equipped with internal combustion engines. Pretty impressive for a 20 years span (and pretty lazy on the part of all that came before them, I would say).

That is what I call the "Star Wars effect". Notice how The Old Republic is not particularly different, technologically, than the prequels, despite the fact it happened thousands of years before. By contrast, the technological level difference in the prequels and the originals is astounding.

 

[lord canti]

I loved it, best episode of Avatar in general since the storm. I'm just hoping Korra will finally wise up and act like the avatar.

 

[lord canti]

I don't agree on that. My problem is that the other episodes are good at certain moments and more than just comedy in those moments. The most frustrating parts of this Book is the lack of character development and wisdom and the relative flimsiness of a plan or two. The last Book had that too, but it got over it, that is, until the Deus ex Machina happened at the very end. Now, it's like the character development started over and got worse for Korra the character. Mako might have even improved as a character 0_o

Well to be fair there were many outside forces that - lets say - ruined the flow of the Book 1 and may have over compensated in book 2.

That's something I don't get. You think those outside forces would have given them more seasons and freedom based solely on how good the first series was.

 

[jamail77]

I disagree with the George Lucas comparison. But that might be my bias showing. I find George Lucas a guy without talent but with a lot of luck, even Star Wars was inspired by other people's work.

I know enough about the behind the scenes to believe he has some talent, but it is a broad talent that comes out in spurts in writing and visualizing. Yes, Star Wars was heavily inspired by Westerns, The Hero With a Thousand Faces, and Flash Gordon among other things. It also has a lot of unique elements and it's almost impossible to create something today that wasn't indirectly or directly inspired by something in some way whether the creator intended it to be or not.

If you watch the Behind The Scenes (I've seen bits and pieces of them in online videos) of the Original Trilogy and the Prequels you can see the difference. He was a fresh face during the older movies: He's less assertive and arrogant and others are holding him back like when Harrison Ford told him, "George, you can type this sh*t, but you sure as hell can't say it." This was before the script was rewritten multiple times WITH help from other screenwriters. Compare it the Phantom Menace Behind The Scenes (only prequel Behind The Scenes I saw): People look very nervous and he is far more assertive with bad ideas, yet is not being questioned or held back. Personally, I like the Prequels as mindless popcorn flicks but nothing more (which is more than can be said for much of the Internet).

Either way, ignore the George Lucas comparison and the popular segment of fan belief still holds as possibly true. The two creators wrote almost all Book 1 Korra episodes and three episodes of Book 2 that we know of whereas they did not write as many episodes for the original series.

Avatar is just awesome, even if Legend of Korra is not as great as The Last Airbender (which I don't know if I agree) it's still pretty great.

I find Korra very frustrating. It has so much potential and is truly great sometimes, but then something stupid happens whether it be a dip in animation quality (I explained why this has happened in this Book in an earlier post), a stupid character decision, a flimsy or badly excused idea or plan, etc.

I do defend it from the people who say it is not as good because it went more technological and got less mythological and fantasy oriented. I was going to copy/paste my rationalization from an old response that wasn't on The Escapist for why I don't believe in this and think these people are just overly nostalgic with some fairness in that the show has bad elements that forget to showcase what we really love about the universe. I can't find it though and don't feel like reiterating it for the 3rd or 4th time.

I do agree Korra this season is way worse, but on the other hand Mako is kinda becoming a good character instead of what seemed to be a Zuku rippoff in the 1st season.

I didn't see Mako as a full Zuko ripoff because regardless of what had actually happened or Zuko's circumstances or personality his actions and beliefs made sense in context. Mako acted pretty dumb in Book 1. Book 2 Mako confuses me because of this.

I want it to be more profound than simply good vs evil. Actually that's the reason I didn't find these last two episodes that spectaclar (still pretty good though).

Yes, it was a basic good vs evil story but it had great mythology, background, and art behind it. It was entertaining and had an interesting twist on what we thought we know about the Avatar universe. Most flashback beginnings start with good vs evil; it gets more complex as the species, world, and story progress or in this case look back towards the past. Real life started out the same way as well according to well founded theories by many historians. Humans were simpler in their problems in the beginning most likely. So, I can't say I agree with your rationality as a good reason for not liking these last two episodes. There are plenty of other reasons I would have been okay with but that is not one of them, not that you aren't free to your opinion of course.

It also proved to me that technology and culture works in a weird way in Avatar, since they managed to get to early 50s from medieval level in less than a generation, and now I learned that they used to be stuck in that level for thousands of years.

[SNIP]

I mean why would I build a bridge or invent a pulley system to cross a river, when a friendly mage can just teleport me across?

Because maybe you only know of unfriendly mages or carry some sort of bigotry towards mages? Or maybe you just feel like you're not doing enough with your life like a lot of people who created things say they felt when they created their thing?

But they didn't magically lost the capacity to bend, to justify a technological explosion of such magnitude. If anything, they have mastered it to the point elemental bending is based in personality more than family lines and nationality (which is the explanation I found for having brothers bend different elements), and their lives largely depend on it. Notice how lightning bending became so commonplace they are using them to generate electricity in blue collar works, and metal bending is now a police division, while in the original series they were elite versions of bending only a handful of people in the world could use.

It was already established very early on that the brothers lived in a multicultural family consisting of one firebending parent and one earthbending parent or possibly at least one parent who had traces of both lineages (I don't know if this was elaborated specifically as I don't remember what I read or if there was a follow up announcement or interview). It wasn't specifically stated in the show, just outside of it, but it is heavily implied. The canon Avatar: The Last Airbender "spin-off" graphic novel trilogy The Promise also establishes that Earthbenders and Firebenders had DEFINITELY married both during and after the 100 Year War, mostly in what would become The United Republic of Nations, the Fire Nation colonies. I'm surprised this didn't occur to your; I hope that doesn't sound offensive.

You have no idea how many people complain about the relative ubiquity of what was formerly elite bending. While the creators never explained that they did explain the technological progress. They claimed to have always seen Avatar: The Last Airbender as The Industrial Revolution and The Legend of Korra as the Roaring 20s. It seemed pretty reasonable to me honestly: Whenever you combine a minor amount of steampunk (yes, there is some steampunk involved: the creator themselves agree on this) technological progress goes a little out of whack in the same proportion.

It is a little too much of a time gap for even my benefit of the doubt and suspension of disbelief but it's not serious enough to bother me especially when I take into account that The Industrial Revolution aspects of the world were very scattered among the nations and even among areas of an individual nation. Let's also not forget that however much it may seem to the contrary, humanity has progressed slowly as well. It took us many 1000s of years before we actually showed significant technological advancement as well between evolution, wars, catastrophes, and individual geniuses and pioneers that were akin to Avatar's Mechanic and that we desperately needed to show us the way arrived in full. We should be way farther than we are right now. It's 2013! In the Avatar universe, they had to explore the world to see what was available, then they had to clear the Spirit Wilds carefully and respectfully until what they knew became legend and they stopped caring so as to make room for things, then they needed their individual geniuses and pioneers to pop up now and again, then they needed to stop halting progress with ill-will (the war leads to progress thing is a myth propagated by the fact that there is faster than usual initial advancement before the sudden progress crash) and disease spreading actions, and then they needed to work together to combine their collective power for progress.

then Aang came (notice how the world didn't change much before and after he was frozen for 100 years) and, in a lot less than a generation (they showed the presence of cars in the time before Kora and even Amon were born)

They showed cars before that??? Are you sure you're not referring to wagons pulled by Ostrich Horses? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFv4PEkBzYA&feature=player_detailpage#t=66

SNIP

Well to be fair there were many outside forces that - lets say - ruined the flow of the Book 1 and may have over compensated in book 2.

That's something I don't get. You think those outside forces would have given them more seasons and freedom based solely on how good the first series was.

It's complicated but basically those forces weren't all good, either in intention or just as a force, and the ones that were good were not only few in number but misguided in their trajectory. If you'd like I could explain it to you, it's just a VERY long and complicated story.

 

[thejboy88]

I felt it was a very good two-parter. Not only do we get a great story on how the Avatar first began, but it fills us in on the ultimate conflict of the season, something I've been having a hard time following this season.

I liked the change in art style during the flashback sequences and felt that the whole things was very reminiscant of the feel of the Original Last Airbender show.

If I have naything bad to say about it, it's that I'm not sure about the guy's name. Avatar Wan (as in Avatar "one"). If that was supposed to be a joke, it's not very funny.

 

[lord canti]

I disagree with the George Lucas comparison. But that might be my bias showing. I find George Lucas a guy without talent but with a lot of luck, even Star Wars was inspired by other people's work.

I know enough about the behind the scenes to believe he has some talent, but it is a broad talent that comes out in spurts in writing and visualizing. Yes, Star Wars was heavily inspired by Westerns, The Hero With a Thousand Faces, and Flash Gordon among other things. It also has a lot of unique elements and it's almost impossible to create something today that wasn't indirectly or directly inspired by something in some way whether the creator intended it to be or not.

If you watch the Behind The Scenes (I've seen bits and pieces of them in online videos) of the Original Trilogy and the Prequels you can see the difference. He was a fresh face during the older movies: He's less assertive and arrogant and others are holding him back like when Harrison Ford told him, "George, you can type this sh*t, but you sure as hell can't say it." This was before the script was rewritten multiple times WITH help from other screenwriters. Compare it the Phantom Menace Behind The Scenes (only prequel Behind The Scenes I saw): People look very nervous and he is far more assertive with bad ideas, yet is not being questioned or held back. Personally, I like the Prequels as mindless popcorn flicks but nothing more (which is more than can be said for much of the Internet).

Either way, ignore the George Lucas comparison and the popular segment of fan belief still holds as possibly true. The two creators wrote almost all Book 1 Korra episodes and three episodes of Book 2 that we know of whereas they did not write as many episodes for the original series.

Avatar is just awesome, even if Legend of Korra is not as great as The Last Airbender (which I don't know if I agree) it's still pretty great.

I find Korra very frustrating. It has so much potential and is truly great sometimes, but then something stupid happens whether it be a dip in animation quality (I explained why this has happened in this Book in an earlier post), a stupid character decision, a flimsy or badly excused idea or plan, etc.

I do defend it from the people who say it is not as good because it went more technological and got less mythological and fantasy oriented. I was going to copy/paste my rationalization from an old response that wasn't on The Escapist for why I don't believe in this and think these people are just overly nostalgic with some fairness in that the show has bad elements that forget to showcase what we really love about the universe. I can't find it though and don't feel like reiterating it for the 3rd or 4th time.

I do agree Korra this season is way worse, but on the other hand Mako is kinda becoming a good character instead of what seemed to be a Zuku rippoff in the 1st season.

I didn't see Mako as a full Zuko ripoff because regardless of what had actually happened or Zuko's circumstances or personality his actions and beliefs made sense in context. Mako acted pretty dumb in Book 1. Book 2 Mako confuses me because of this.

I want it to be more profound than simply good vs evil. Actually that's the reason I didn't find these last two episodes that spectaclar (still pretty good though).

Yes, it was a basic good vs evil story but it had great mythology, background, and art behind it. It was entertaining and had an interesting twist on what we thought we know about the Avatar universe. Most flashback beginnings start with good vs evil; it gets more complex as the species, world, and story progress or in this case look back towards the past. Real life started out the same way as well according to well founded theories by many historians. Humans were simpler in their problems in the beginning most likely. So, I can't say I agree with your rationality as a good reason for not liking these last two episodes. There are plenty of other reasons I would have been okay with but that is not one of them, not that you aren't free to your opinion of course.

It also proved to me that technology and culture works in a weird way in Avatar, since they managed to get to early 50s from medieval level in less than a generation, and now I learned that they used to be stuck in that level for thousands of years.

[SNIP]

I mean why would I build a bridge or invent a pulley system to cross a river, when a friendly mage can just teleport me across?

Because maybe you only know of unfriendly mages or carry some sort of bigotry towards mages? Or maybe you just feel like you're not doing enough with your life like a lot of people who created things say they felt when they created their thing?

But they didn't magically lost the capacity to bend, to justify a technological explosion of such magnitude. If anything, they have mastered it to the point elemental bending is based in personality more than family lines and nationality (which is the explanation I found for having brothers bend different elements), and their lives largely depend on it. Notice how lightning bending became so commonplace they are using them to generate electricity in blue collar works, and metal bending is now a police division, while in the original series they were elite versions of bending only a handful of people in the world could use.

It was already established very early on that the brothers lived in a multicultural family consisting of one firebending parent and one earthbending parent or possibly at least one parent who had traces of both lineages (I don't know if this was elaborated specifically as I don't remember what I read or if there was a follow up announcement or interview). It wasn't specifically stated in the show, just outside of it, but it is heavily implied. The canon Avatar: The Last Airbender "spin-off" graphic novel trilogy The Promise also establishes that Earthbenders and Firebenders had DEFINITELY married both during and after the 100 Year War, mostly in what would become The United Republic of Nations, the Fire Nation colonies. I'm surprised this didn't occur to your; I hope that doesn't sound offensive.

You have no idea how many people complain about the relative ubiquity of what was formerly elite bending. While the creators never explained that they did explain the technological progress. They claimed to have always seen Avatar: The Last Airbender as The Industrial Revolution and The Legend of Korra as the Roaring 20s. It seemed pretty reasonable to me honestly: Whenever you combine a minor amount of steampunk (yes, there is some steampunk involved: the creator themselves agree on this) technological progress goes a little out of whack in the same proportion.

It is a little too much of a time gap for even my benefit of the doubt and suspension of disbelief but it's not serious enough to bother me especially when I take into account that The Industrial Revolution aspects of the world were very scattered among the nations and even among areas of an individual nation. Let's also not forget that however much it may seem to the contrary, humanity has progressed slowly as well. It took us many 1000s of years before we actually showed significant technological advancement as well between evolution, wars, catastrophes, and individual geniuses and pioneers that were akin to Avatar's Mechanic and that we desperately needed to show us the way arrived in full. We should be way farther than we are right now. It's 2013! In the Avatar universe, they had to explore the world to see what was available, then they had to clear the Spirit Wilds carefully and respectfully until what they knew became legend and they stopped caring so as to make room for things, then they needed their individual geniuses and pioneers to pop up now and again, then they needed to stop halting progress with ill-will (the war leads to progress thing is a myth propagated by the fact that there is faster than usual initial advancement before the sudden progress crash) and disease spreading actions, and then they needed to work together to combine their collective power for progress.

then Aang came (notice how the world didn't change much before and after he was frozen for 100 years) and, in a lot less than a generation (they showed the presence of cars in the time before Kora and even Amon were born)

They showed cars before that??? Are you sure you're not referring to wagons pulled by Ostrich Horses? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFv4PEkBzYA&feature=player_detailpage#t=66

SNIP

Well to be fair there were many outside forces that - lets say - ruined the flow of the Book 1 and may have over compensated in book 2.

That's something I don't get. You think those outside forces would have given them more seasons and freedom based solely on how good the first series was.

It's complicated but basically those forces weren't all good, either in intention or just as a force, and the ones that were good were not only few in number but misguided in their trajectory. If you'd like I could explain it to you, it's just a VERY long and complicated story.

Actually I would love for you to explain it. The series would have been so much better had the outside forces gave them more to work with out of the gate and considering how big the first series was you'd think they would.

 

[jamail77]

It's complicated but basically those forces weren't all good, either in intention or just as a force, and the ones that were good were not only few in number but misguided in their trajectory. If you'd like I could explain it to you, it's just a VERY long and complicated story.

Actually I would love for you to explain it. The series would have been so much better had the outside forces gave them more to work with out of the gate and considering how big the first series was you'd think they would.

Sigh. Part of the reason I said that was in the hopes I wouldn't have to. It's so long and I'm so lazy. Ah, very well. Luckily, I can quote previous replies! Keep in mind that I didn't say all of these negative forces were intentional; I said there were bad forces outweighing the good. Nickelodeon executives gave them a lot of freedom and were pretty excited as far as I know.

snip

[SNIP] Despite their misgivings and the problems they have writing on their own without the input of their team (popular fan rumor that they're like the George Lucas of cartoons, great visionaries, but best working with a team that can control or supplement them rather than given full control especially of writing) in regards to Korra's character development, I don't think they'd forget such things and cast them off to the wayside like that.

snip

This is a very interesting comment considering the animation studio behind these two episodes are the original studio behind Book One and considered the superior studio (Studio Mir, Korean studio). Long story short there was a conflict between the American team and the two different animated studios involved. Studio Mir was so exhausted from the process and got an offer to do Boondocks at that moment. After a meeting they decided to go with Boondocks, Studio Pierrot (Japanese) animated the majority of Korra episodes, and Studio Mir came back for a few. Before people even knew who animated which episodes, it was clear people thought the Studio Mir episodes looked better, which is why initially there were so many complaints about why the animation went up and down in quality. I think this is why it took so long for Book 2 to come. The excuses were suspicious to me, it was long even considering the trickiness of animation business; I had a feeling there were problems coming up like this. It's a LITTLE more complicated than that, but there's a basic explanation. If you want to know more go here [http://avatarthelegendofkorraonline.com/which-studio-animated-book-2-of-the-legend-of-korra-mir-or-pierrot-we-have-an-answer/2907/].

[SNIP]

Another possibly bad influence was the change in TV release schedule. When you change a time for a TV show even if it has been determined it is a better time slot (in this case, that was the explanation) it can lead to confusion from not knowing about it because of lack of advertising or avoidance by viewers from areas that would help them know regarding this leading to less viewers. If you have a rather big but relatively small fanbase as Korra does (relatively big for the kind of show it is, but small for TV in general) that can really cost you in the short term. What does that have to do with the writing and animation quality you might ask? Well, it's possible some writing was getting ironed out and some finishing animation was being done when the people behind Korra were notified of the change. This can disrupt things and with there being less viewers in the short term complaints won't come as quickly. That is a pretty convoluted and unlikely single issue however. It literally just came to me.

Success can also blind people. It's less likely constructive criticism will get around among the team behind Korra, Nickelodeon, and from the viewers. The creators don't seem to be hearing or acknowledging this criticism as it is.

The creators try to frame something they're good at in the Korra context and just don't know how? It sounds good on the surface, everyone agrees, it gets finished, and few, if anybody, complains within the team because they weren't expecting more than that. Viewers will catch on though.

You've probably noticed there's a fair amount of hypothetical here. A lot of it is just stuff I think happened or might have happened. They all combined to worsen things for the show. There's more hypotheticals and actual facts I could list, but honestly I'm way too tired. So, there you go.