kotor 1 vs kotor 2

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DEAD34345

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Avatar Roku said:
Alright, you really don't remember much, but I'll try to give you the Spark Notes version of the character motivations and such:
The Exile (who is canonically female, so I will refer to her as such) does know a lot of things you do not, however, which is one of the reasons the story is so praised; this game managed to give us a PC who HAS a past that is not explained by cutscenes and flashbacks (save one), but rather we piece it together from her interactions with others.

In addition to that, the game is REALLY about the Mandalorian Wars, which took place 10 years earlier, and again, it manages to be about that without flashbacks.

Anyway, here's the Exile's backstory, as pieced together through the game: she was a young Jedi when the Mandalorian Wars started, and she decided (for reasons that the player chooses in the present day when she talks about it, that's what I meant by being about 10 years ago without flashbacks) to defy the Council and join Revan to fight against the Mandalorians. Eventually, she became a General because of her ability to inspire her underlings (which will be VERY important later).

Anyway, because of the horrors of the last battle of the war, Malachor V, and because she lost her connection to the Force (and, it is implied, because Revan manipulated her into doing so), the Exile was the only Jedi to return to the Council to face judgement. They decided to exile her, hence her name.

She wandered around the galaxy, missing the events of the first game entirely, until eventually (and we aren't really told why), the Exile decides to return to civilization, and was going to Telos aboard the Republic ship Harbinger when certain events happened which end with the Exile being on Peragus, the first level of the game. I won't go into too much detail, but basically: Sith want the Exile dead, the Exchange wants to capture her, and Kreia wants the Exile alive for her own reasons...

Now is probably a good time to discuss what we find out when we find the Jedi Masters (assuming we do it the Light Side way and do not kill them). We're told that the Exile always created Force Bonds with others, unintentionally. These bonds were VERY strong (hence the fact that she could feel Kreia's pain when her hand was cut off) and were created VERY quickly. While she was a General, she created thousands of these bonds. And then, at Malachor V, all those bonds were violently cut off at the same time. So she had to cut herself off from the force or she would have died. This somehow damaged the Force itself; the Exile became a hole, a "wound" in the force, but she didn't stop creating those bonds. In fact, the bonding got even stronger, The Exile basically became a Force black hole; she created those bonds and used the Force through others.

Now for Kreia's motivations. Kreia hates the Jedi Council, but she does not want them dead. Basically, Kreia had some interesting beliefs that the Jedi did not share. She believed, among other things, in moral relativism, and disliked both the pure light side and the pure dark side. She preached balance, essentially (She also hated the Force itself, but more on that later). However, every student she ever had (including, it is revealed, Revan) turned to the Dark Side, and eventually she was shunned by the Council. She decided she wanted revenge. Not, in a refreshing change of pace, by killing them, but rather by showing them how wrong they were. So, she finds the Exile (who is dead to the force, which interests her for other reasons) and decides to train her. She also tells The Exile one, simple lie: The Council is the reason you were cut off from the Force. She did this so the Exile would find the Council members and get them all to meet up, which is exactly what happens if you are light side.

When you are light side, you meet the council. This should be Kreia's moment of triumph, but the Council was blind. You know what, I'm gonna quote a certain LP [http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/] here. This guy explains it really well:
"Kreia gathered the Jedi Masters here for a purpose: revenge. But for her, revenge didn?t mean killing them. If the Exile had gone Dark Side and fought each of the Jedi Masters, Kreia would have berated him for being such a murderous idiot and not learning anything from her.

Kreia was cast out of the Jedi Order for her beliefs. The council disagreed with her teachings, and the fact that most of her students ended up going all evil and whatnot didn?t exactly help her case. All this time in exile, she schemed to find a way to get back at them, to show them the error of their ways. For her, victory would have been the Jedi Council admitting they were wrong.

She never intended to kill them, since it would have been a hollow victory that way. But they were stubborn idiots and they forced her to act. That?s why she sounds so regretful here."

That was Kreia's motivation for most of the game. After the Council dies, she sort of BSODs and something...different happens.

Throughout the entire game, there had been an undercurrent in the dialogue with Kreia: she was all for everyone's freedom to choose. And yet, there exists the Force, which controls everything and seems to have a will of it's own. Kreia HATES this idea, that there can be this omniscient force whose will supersedes all others. That was the other reason Kreia sought out the Exile: she was the only person in the galaxy who was completely free of the Force, and Kreia loved her for that.

Again, the LPer sums it up well:
"Star Wars has more similarities to Tolkien and high fantasy than most sci-fi franchises, and one of the most telling aspects of it is that you have destiny disguised as the Force. Everyone keeps saying the Force guides all things, trust the Force, etc. Then you you take a control-freak like Kreia who values self-determination above all else, yet who uses the Force as well, and suddenly you have this fate vs. free will dichotomy manifested within the same character."

This part is actually quite hard to explain, so I will just link [http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2059/] to the page in the LP that covers this part.
That post went on for longer than I expected, and it still barely scratches the surface. I recommend you read the LP I posted in there, it really does a great job.
Huh, that was actually pretty interesting. I think I made all the wrong choices when playing that game, mainly because I hated Kreia and her meddling right from the start. I'd avoid her completely where possible, and I'm pretty sure the main reason I ended up being so evil in the game was just that it pissed her off. I didn't notice half of what you mentioned at all, but the story does seem to make a lot more sense now...

You've convinced me to give the game another shot, at least, which is something I never expected. Thanks.
 
Apr 28, 2008
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SpaceBat said:
Well that sucks to hear. Still, got a source article for that statement? I would like to know more about what he/she meant with that.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/101015-Alleged-Obsidian-Dev-Lashes-Out-at-Alpha-Protocol

There ya go.

SpaceBat said:
What? How is throwing away excellent writing in return for good gameplay progress? If you ask me, that's a step down from what they've usually been doing. I mean, I can fix bad gameplay with unofficial patches, but I can't fix a boring story.
Well, their main story writers were most likely working with New Vegas and its DLC's instead of Dungeon Siege 3, so that'd explain why the story was boring. But, they're done with those now. I wonder what their next game'll be.
 

AD-Stu

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At risk of sounding smug, I saw the plot twist coming in KOTOR 1 as well. It's been ages since I've played it though and most of the rest of the story is pretty much lost in a "kill the bad guy that's going to destroy the universe" ordinary space opera blur. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that, mind you - I mean, who doesn't enjoy the chance to be righteous and save the universe? But people are right, it's not especially original or anything.

KOTOR 2 is a game I've played much more recently (thanks to the restoration mod) but I've got to admit, the bugs always got in the way of the story for me and I never really sat back to carefully consider the matter of which had the better plot. I can totally see what people are saying about how KOTOR 2's plot is deeper and more morally ambiguous and all that...

...but I'm clearly in the minority for finding Kreia's character to be irritating rather than deep and meaningful. Her response to everything you said or did was 100% predictable: she'd find a flaw to harp on about every single time, regardless of the choice you made. As a result, I found talking to her to largely be an exercise in redundancy - I might as well have been talking to one of those irritating five year old kids that asks "why?" at the end of ever single sentence. I didn't need a whole game of it to get the point that there are upsides and downsides to every decision and that was hardly a mind-blowing revelation to begin with.

Anywho, my point: now that people mention it, KOTOR 2 definitely had a more original story, but I think KOTOR 1's less-original plot was much better executed.
 

Evill_Bob

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KoTOR 1 was better because it was actually finished. Too many bugs remained in the rushed sequel because Bioware barely had six months to make it. It had all the makings of a much better game but if given time.
 

SpaceBat

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Irridium said:
There ya go.
Thank you. Pretty interesting article.

SpaceBat said:
Well, their main story writers were most likely working with New Vegas and its DLC's instead of Dungeon Siege 3, so that'd explain why the story was boring. But, they're done with those now. I wonder what their next game'll be.
That still doesn't really change my opinion on the matter, though. I merely said that trading excellent writing for better gameplay doesn't really seem to me as a step in the right direction and your explanation to the reason behind this, as logical and interesting as it may be, doesn't really affect my views.

Also, seeing as they concentrated more on New Vegas's story, I wonder how that worked out, having never played FNV myself. Is the story good? Not compared to Fallout 3 of course, because that game had really weak writing.

Apparently, their next game will be a game called Wheel of Time for the PC, 360 and PS3. At least, that's what wiki tells me. It's the only game that is apparently still being developed and thus unreleased.
 
Apr 28, 2008
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SpaceBat said:
Irridium said:
There ya go.
Thank you. Pretty interesting article.

SpaceBat said:
Well, their main story writers were most likely working with New Vegas and its DLC's instead of Dungeon Siege 3, so that'd explain why the story was boring. But, they're done with those now. I wonder what their next game'll be.
That still doesn't really change my opinion on the matter, though. I merely said that trading excellent writing for better gameplay doesn't really seem to me as a step in the right direction and your explanation to the reason behind this, as logical and interesting as it may be, doesn't really affect my views.

Also, seeing as they concentrated more on New Vegas's story, I wonder how that worked out, having never played FNV myself. Is the story good? Not compared to Fallout 3 of course, because that game had really weak writing.

Apparently, their next game will be a game called Wheel of Time for the PC, 360 and PS3. At least, that's what wiki tells me. It's the only game that is apparently still being developed and thus unreleased.
Alright, fair enough.

And yes, New Vegas has excellent writing. In the DLC's especially. Though some portions could be better(like the Legion, could have been portrayed much more "grayer" than they are), it's all well written.

And I shall keep an eye out for any Wheel of Time announcements then. Though to be honest, I think I've heard that name before... can't remember where though.
 

SpaceBat

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Irridium said:
And yes, New Vegas has excellent writing. In the DLC's especially. Though some portions could be better(like the Legion, could have been portrayed much more "grayer" than they are), it's all well written.
Heh, I guess that's to be expected, seeing as it's Obsidian and all.

Irridium said:
And I shall keep an eye out for any Wheel of Time announcements then. Though to be honest, I think I've heard that name before... can't remember where though.
Apparently they're based on Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" novels. Haven't heard anything about the game in a very long while though. Last time it got mentioned anywhere was nearly two years ago (Feb 2010) and it was still in the concept art stage at the time.
 

Barley Seed

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I much prefer KotOR 2 to the first. The story, dialogue, characters, locations and even gameplay shit all over that of the first.
 

Davlar

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Evill_Bob said:
KoTOR 1 was better because it was actually finished. Too many bugs remained in the rushed sequel because Bioware barely had six months to make it. It had all the makings of a much better game but if given time.
Bioware didn't make the game, Obsidian did and got rushed by Lucasart to release it, which has been explained in the thread.

OT: I love the second game and recently played it again with the Restoration-mod installed and the only thing bugging me the whole game was the HK-Factory which was a nightmare to get through as all enemies was as strong as you or worse... So for those who says it's cut, install the Restoration-mod and try it again, I promise a very good story lays in wait for you.
 

TakerFoxx

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Tough call. Both were great games that I've played through about seven times apiece. KOTOR 1 had one of the best plot twists I've ever seen, and it has the advantage of being actually finished. But KOTOR 2's plot had much more depth and some pretty sweet post-modernist themes going for it. So if it were actually complete, I'd give the point to KOTOR 2. But it's not, so I'm kind of stuck on the fence.
 

Orcus The Ultimate

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Daystar Clarion said:
I really liked KotOR 2.

But KotOR 1 had one of the best plot twists of all time. Who ever saw that coming? I certainly didn't, but when you look back, it all makes perfect sense.
Exactly !!!

on my behalf i consider that both games are good, and that Obsidian, even with it's bugs, makes great games !
 

Adam28

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Persona 3 got released again as part of the FES edition with an expansion called the "Answer" which pretty much finishes off the story and answers the questions left remaining at the end of the original.

Why am I mentioning this?

Because KOTOR2 needs something like this but unfortunately it will never happen. KOTOR2 could seriously be one of the best RPGs of all time if it was just fixed and finished properly.
 

Avatar Roku

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lunncal said:
Avatar Roku said:
Alright, you really don't remember much, but I'll try to give you the Spark Notes version of the character motivations and such:
The Exile (who is canonically female, so I will refer to her as such) does know a lot of things you do not, however, which is one of the reasons the story is so praised; this game managed to give us a PC who HAS a past that is not explained by cutscenes and flashbacks (save one), but rather we piece it together from her interactions with others.

In addition to that, the game is REALLY about the Mandalorian Wars, which took place 10 years earlier, and again, it manages to be about that without flashbacks.

Anyway, here's the Exile's backstory, as pieced together through the game: she was a young Jedi when the Mandalorian Wars started, and she decided (for reasons that the player chooses in the present day when she talks about it, that's what I meant by being about 10 years ago without flashbacks) to defy the Council and join Revan to fight against the Mandalorians. Eventually, she became a General because of her ability to inspire her underlings (which will be VERY important later).

Anyway, because of the horrors of the last battle of the war, Malachor V, and because she lost her connection to the Force (and, it is implied, because Revan manipulated her into doing so), the Exile was the only Jedi to return to the Council to face judgement. They decided to exile her, hence her name.

She wandered around the galaxy, missing the events of the first game entirely, until eventually (and we aren't really told why), the Exile decides to return to civilization, and was going to Telos aboard the Republic ship Harbinger when certain events happened which end with the Exile being on Peragus, the first level of the game. I won't go into too much detail, but basically: Sith want the Exile dead, the Exchange wants to capture her, and Kreia wants the Exile alive for her own reasons...

Now is probably a good time to discuss what we find out when we find the Jedi Masters (assuming we do it the Light Side way and do not kill them). We're told that the Exile always created Force Bonds with others, unintentionally. These bonds were VERY strong (hence the fact that she could feel Kreia's pain when her hand was cut off) and were created VERY quickly. While she was a General, she created thousands of these bonds. And then, at Malachor V, all those bonds were violently cut off at the same time. So she had to cut herself off from the force or she would have died. This somehow damaged the Force itself; the Exile became a hole, a "wound" in the force, but she didn't stop creating those bonds. In fact, the bonding got even stronger, The Exile basically became a Force black hole; she created those bonds and used the Force through others.

Now for Kreia's motivations. Kreia hates the Jedi Council, but she does not want them dead. Basically, Kreia had some interesting beliefs that the Jedi did not share. She believed, among other things, in moral relativism, and disliked both the pure light side and the pure dark side. She preached balance, essentially (She also hated the Force itself, but more on that later). However, every student she ever had (including, it is revealed, Revan) turned to the Dark Side, and eventually she was shunned by the Council. She decided she wanted revenge. Not, in a refreshing change of pace, by killing them, but rather by showing them how wrong they were. So, she finds the Exile (who is dead to the force, which interests her for other reasons) and decides to train her. She also tells The Exile one, simple lie: The Council is the reason you were cut off from the Force. She did this so the Exile would find the Council members and get them all to meet up, which is exactly what happens if you are light side.

When you are light side, you meet the council. This should be Kreia's moment of triumph, but the Council was blind. You know what, I'm gonna quote a certain LP [http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/] here. This guy explains it really well:
"Kreia gathered the Jedi Masters here for a purpose: revenge. But for her, revenge didn?t mean killing them. If the Exile had gone Dark Side and fought each of the Jedi Masters, Kreia would have berated him for being such a murderous idiot and not learning anything from her.

Kreia was cast out of the Jedi Order for her beliefs. The council disagreed with her teachings, and the fact that most of her students ended up going all evil and whatnot didn?t exactly help her case. All this time in exile, she schemed to find a way to get back at them, to show them the error of their ways. For her, victory would have been the Jedi Council admitting they were wrong.

She never intended to kill them, since it would have been a hollow victory that way. But they were stubborn idiots and they forced her to act. That?s why she sounds so regretful here."

That was Kreia's motivation for most of the game. After the Council dies, she sort of BSODs and something...different happens.

Throughout the entire game, there had been an undercurrent in the dialogue with Kreia: she was all for everyone's freedom to choose. And yet, there exists the Force, which controls everything and seems to have a will of it's own. Kreia HATES this idea, that there can be this omniscient force whose will supersedes all others. That was the other reason Kreia sought out the Exile: she was the only person in the galaxy who was completely free of the Force, and Kreia loved her for that.

Again, the LPer sums it up well:
"Star Wars has more similarities to Tolkien and high fantasy than most sci-fi franchises, and one of the most telling aspects of it is that you have destiny disguised as the Force. Everyone keeps saying the Force guides all things, trust the Force, etc. Then you you take a control-freak like Kreia who values self-determination above all else, yet who uses the Force as well, and suddenly you have this fate vs. free will dichotomy manifested within the same character."

This part is actually quite hard to explain, so I will just link [http://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2059/] to the page in the LP that covers this part.
That post went on for longer than I expected, and it still barely scratches the surface. I recommend you read the LP I posted in there, it really does a great job.
Huh, that was actually pretty interesting. I think I made all the wrong choices when playing that game, mainly because I hated Kreia and her meddling right from the start. I'd avoid her completely where possible, and I'm pretty sure the main reason I ended up being so evil in the game was just that it pissed her off. I didn't notice half of what you mentioned at all, but the story does seem to make a lot more sense now...

You've convinced me to give the game another shot, at least, which is something I never expected. Thanks.
You're welcome. I would never discourage you from playing the game itself, but I strongly recommend you read the LP I linked to above. A lot of the really interesting philosophical stuff is kinda easy to miss if you aren't paying a lot of attention, I probably only noticed about half of that stuff before I read the LP.
AD-Stu said:
At risk of sounding smug, I saw the plot twist coming in KOTOR 1 as well. It's been ages since I've played it though and most of the rest of the story is pretty much lost in a "kill the bad guy that's going to destroy the universe" ordinary space opera blur. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that, mind you - I mean, who doesn't enjoy the chance to be righteous and save the universe? But people are right, it's not especially original or anything.

KOTOR 2 is a game I've played much more recently (thanks to the restoration mod) but I've got to admit, the bugs always got in the way of the story for me and I never really sat back to carefully consider the matter of which had the better plot. I can totally see what people are saying about how KOTOR 2's plot is deeper and more morally ambiguous and all that...

...but I'm clearly in the minority for finding Kreia's character to be irritating rather than deep and meaningful. Her response to everything you said or did was 100% predictable: she'd find a flaw to harp on about every single time, regardless of the choice you made. As a result, I found talking to her to largely be an exercise in redundancy - I might as well have been talking to one of those irritating five year old kids that asks "why?" at the end of ever single sentence. I didn't need a whole game of it to get the point that there are upsides and downsides to every decision and that was hardly a mind-blowing revelation to begin with.

Anywho, my point: now that people mention it, KOTOR 2 definitely had a more original story, but I think KOTOR 1's less-original plot was much better executed.
Kreia isn't just interesting because of the whole "there are upsides and downsides" thing, her whole arc is amazing. See my above post (quoted in the above quote) to see exactly what I mean.
 

cdstephens

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With the restoration mod or not?

http://deadlystream.com/forum/files/file/13-tslrcm/

It fixes almost every bug in KOTOR 2 and adds almost all of the content that couldn't make it into KOTOR 2 due to an early release, such as training with Visas, raising an assassin droid army as HK-47, etc.

Without the mod, KOTOR is better simply because of polish, and because I got attached to Revan. With bugs fixed, since in KOTOR there's a better alignment system, deeper story (the story is improved upon by the fix), and more game mechanics, KOTOR 2 is superior.
Adam28 said:
Persona 3 got released again as part of the FES edition with an expansion called the "Answer" which pretty much finishes off the story and answers the questions left remaining at the end of the original.

Why am I mentioning this?

Because KOTOR2 needs something like this but unfortunately it will never happen. KOTOR2 could seriously be one of the best RPGs of all time if it was just fixed and finished properly.
See the link above. If you mean a finish the story about the True Sith Kreia was talking about and where Revan went, then play the Old Republic and read the Revan book coming out this year.
 

AlternatePFG

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When using the Restoration Mod, I think KOTOR 2 is the better game, period. Without it, KOTOR 1 is a bit more polished and much less buggy, but even then I can't decide which is better.
 

00slash00

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i thought both games were shit.

kotor 1 because the combat was boring, the story was predictable, and the characters were kinda bland to me (though i only ever used the jedi)

kotor 2 because...well i got 2 hours in before it was just to buggy to even play
 

cdstephens

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On a side note, something that irks me is that the Exile in Star Wars canon is much less important than Revan, despite them being on par with each other, and both of them saving the Republic. The Exile can even instantly learn an opponent's or teacher's moves, *and* survived a complete disconnect from the Force. To me, that seems more impressive, everyone talks about Revan....sigh....
 

FaceFaceFace

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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Lagao said:
Thats debatable. KOTOR 2's story is unfinished unless you mod it, and KOTOR 1's story is far superior.
Ha! Apart from the plot-twist, the original KOTOR's story is your standard Good vs Evil Star Wars space opera.

KOTOR II's story wasn't that unfinished. More importantly, it was an incredible deconstruction of both the Star Wars mythos and RPG tropes, and had some of the deepest, most morally ambiguous characters in any Star Wars story.

You may like KOTOR's campy story over KOTOR II's brooding tale, and that's fine. But one is significantly less hackneyed and cliched than the other, and it's not the original.
Exactly what I was going to say. Take out the plot twist and what was unique about the original's plot? Nothing at all. KOTOR 2's deconstruction of pretty much everything, it's plot that for once wasn't about some grand war for the fate of the galaxy but a subtle series of events only a few end up knowing about despite their importance, and the great characters (especially Kreia) made it way better, imo, than the original, even in its unfinished state.

Gameplay-wise is a bit more mixed. More ability variety, customization of practically every weapon rather than just lightsabers and a handful of select guns, and a higher level cap were all awesome, but their were some general design disbalances. The Stun/Destroy Droid powers, for instance, in the original worked because there were droid enemies in almost every area and situation, while the sequel had them at very staggered appearances and nowhere in the in-game, making the abilities a waste. Not to mention the major disbalances. I had a double-bladed saber wielding Sith Marauder who could kill every end-game boss with a single flurry attack.

Vykrel said:
that beginning level in kotor 2 was freaking terrible, though. i had so much trouble getting through that part, but the rest of the game was great. either way, kotor 1 was better.
I loved the intro to KOTOR II. Definitely better than the generic under-siege spaceship of the original. It had a totally random space-horror vibe which I thought was awesome.

Note: I love the original KOTOR and its plot and characters. I just prefer almost everything about the sequel.
 

Xangba

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If I could just say my piece, both are excellent (well KotOR 2 after the restoration mod that is). Bioware, to me, can effectively pull off using a classic cliche story, and to be honest it's classic for a reason. It's the mark of a good story if it's still found interesting even if done before. With KotOR 2 Obsidian was the developer, and if I recall recommended by Bioware. Obsidian is an excellent developer, but to me at least they keep being given the short end of the stick with time constraints. They aren't really big enough to push for more time to finish the game, so whoever is in charge calls the shots. Unfortunately this causes buggy releases, but it's clear to me at least the talent is there. Hopefully Obsidian can become a pre-EA Bioware. Anyway once again, both are great, plain and simple.