Kotor and the Jedi in general (spoilers?)

[Carboncrown]

Welcome to the realisation that the Star Wars mythology is full of contradictory crap! Why should evil be ugly? Does it not lead one to assume that ugly is therefore evil? The association of spiritual corruption with physical corruption is outdated and offensive.

*snip*

Most definetly not. Atleast it shouldn't.
That's a logical fallacy; eq. Humans have two legs. Does that mean all two legged things are humans?

Sidenote: Kel Dor

OT:I'm much too lazy busy to go on a rant about Star Wars filosophy.

 

[Magnus Hellman]

@Ordinaryundone Was it wrong to mind-wipe Revan? Yeah, probably. Even Bastilla, the zealot that she is, still felt pretty crappy about it. But think of it this way. Revan was on the path of ruin, on the verge of bringing untold war and horror to trillions of people. The Jedi. instead of just executing him when they had the chance, gave him a fresh start. A clean slate, and a chance to redeem himself and be the hero he once was. That doesn`t sound so bad to me.

@Vrach Did you miss the part where the Jedi erasing Revan's mind was one of the hardest decisions they had to make? They didn't do it cause "oh hey, a powerful Jedi, instead of killing him, let's blank his mind and turn him to our side!", they did it because he was the only hope of finding the Star Forge. You're making it sound like it was a choice between "dead enemy" and "converted enemy", when the actual choice was between "having no idea how to save an entire civilization from the most destructive conquering force in the galaxy" and "sacrificing one person's memories in order to have a fighting chance to save that galaxy".

Yes, the Jedi believe in free will. That said, they're very devoted to their ways, which is not to everyone's taste and imo, not in the best interest of either their own order or the galaxy's. They believe in detachment from emotions because they believe it to be the way to the Light side and the only way to stave off the 'corruption' of the Dark side. And there's plenty of proof towards otherwise throughout the novels, movies and games.

But now we're getting into a Star Wars lore religious discussion and my nerd senses are starting to overflow, so I'll stop here [/quote]

well i would have been fine with it if they had told me who i was!
I see why they didn't but that doesn't meen i'm okay with it, and secondly bastila f*ckin bragged about it infront of me! 'what better weapon sn't there than to turn the enemy to your beliefs' or some shit! (note that it was the triumphant tone of her voice that bothered me the most.)

P.S missed the quote thing, damnit!

 

[Supernova2000]

Welcome to the realisation that the Star Wars mythology is full of contradictory crap! Why should evil be ugly? Does it not lead one to assume that ugly is therefore evil? The association of spiritual corruption with physical corruption is outdated and offensive.

Also, the Jedi are often arseholes, and while they might say they are on the side of the light they often act in manners that are explicitly hateful and small-minded. The treatment of Revan, the Jedi Exile and other veterans of the Mandalorian Wars in the KotOR games is a great example of this.

Indeed, Jedi and Sith have been boiled down to boring, one-dimensional stereotypes in recent years. For me, having to choose between them means being asked to choose between an arrogant, aloof, self-righteous, narrow-minded, insulated, out of touch, know-it-all tool or a completely psychotic, ugly, super Hitler filled to the brim with messianic delusions, with some sort of cybernetic replacement, whose only motivation is "ruling the galaxy" - which makes them no better than panto villains in my mind - to which I say: Piss off! Compared to the galaxy, you are NOTHING you fool! When you look out of a window on a space ship, you can only see about 0.000000000000000000000001% of it, so how can you possibly rule all of that, especially since most of it is still uncharted?

I love KoTOR 2 because of how it calls those stereotypes into question, which pisses me off that TOR not only hasn't capitalised on that advance in the IP but seems to have completely ignored it, which is not so much taking a step backwards as it is taking an entire hyperspace jump backwards!

 

[Jarek Mace]

Play KOTOR 2 as well - it does what Lucas now hates. It delves into the Jedi and Sith and shows that neither are absolutes.
The Jedi are not morally perfect and simply help everyone.
The Sith do not kill just because - but sometimes to protect the innocent.

 

[DustyDrB]

Sadly, Bioware themselves seem to be more than happy pandering to the idea of Light=Jesus, Dark=Satan. The first KOTOR was hardly a masterpiece of moral ambiguity, and the Old Republic is filled with such luminary Sith characters as Lord Scourge. I wouldn't go to them for any interesting analysis of the SW universe.

...God, how I want Obsidian to make another Star Wars RPG.

I never noticed how cartoonishly evil the first KotOR's villains were until I played it again recently. Malak's cackling is one example. A better example is when Darth Bandon is introduced as the next would-be assassin of the player. He strolls onto the bridge of the Leviathon, kills a few Sith soldiers and technicians (Why? Because he's bad).

I still love the game, but they could have made villains less of the Evil Stupid alignment. The Sith on Korriban are better, in all their manipulative backstabbing goodness.

 

[SpaceBat]

Don't stop with Kotor 1. Aside from the plot-twist, its story contains nothing remarkable or truly praise-worthy. Subjects that go beyond the "STAR WARS IS KEWL" nonsense do not get any screen time and a huge amount of backstory and other relevant things are never mentioned.

Kotor 1 is a shallow, but entertaining game (only because of its cast). Go play Kotor 2 for your answers and more in-depth info regarding the entire universe. It is the infinitely superior game story-wise, morality-wise and dialogue-wise and if you managed to enjoy the first, you'll love the second. Just patch it as much as you can (official and un-official patches) before you play it.

 

[Magnus Hellman]

yeah that bothers me about the sith ending in KOTOR, i didnt want the galaxy!
I only wanted to wipe the jedi from existance!

(and i don't mind walls of text as long as they're intresting.)

 

[gmaverick019_v1legacy]

You should really play KotOR II. It faces this question head on.

Along with many other questions/issues about Star Wars and RPG's as a whole.

Man I love KoTOR 2.

great, thanks alot. reminding me of all the awesomeness of kotor 2

*sigh*

*goes to re-install kotor 2 for the umptienth time*

OT: There is alot of contradictions, especially depending on what "lore" you stick to (books/movies/TOR/etc..) so i'd say take it all with a grain of salt.

 

[endtherapture]

I really like how Obsidian put the spin on Darth Revan.

He took the dark side and immense power, so that he could strengthen and save the galaxy he loved from the True Sith.

It was also very cool because the Jedi Council didn't want to help the Republic fight the Mandalorians - Revan did, to save lives so he went in.

Revan was essentially willing to do anything to save the galaxy, including "falling" to the Dark Side.

Sadly I was about 13 when I played KoTOR2 so the subtleties of Kreia and the plot were lost on me, but I might give it a proper playthrough again soon.

 

[Kimarous]

From what I understand, the Jedi Code has been corrupted. The original code followed a structure of "X, yet Y", but was updated 'to avoid confusion' to "There is no X, there is Y". I feel that this has greatly crippled the Order's teachings. Tell me, which makes more sense to you?

There is no emotion, there is peace
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge
There is no passion, there is serenity
There is no chaos, there is harmony
There is no death, there is The Force

or

Emotion, yet peace
Ignorance, yet knowledge
Passion, yet serenity
Chaos, yet harmony
Death, yet The Force

I prefer the latter. It has much broader interpretations, true, but in a positive way. It acknowledges that these aspects exist, but it is possible to stay strong within them... to have peace amid emotion, serenity within passion, and so forth. "Ignorance, yet knowledge" is perhaps the most important, as it suggests that you can learn something valuable in the most unlikely and "ignorant" of sources; Obi-Wan demonstrated this when he sought out Rex in "Attack of the Clones".

 

[Worr Monger]

You should really play KotOR II. It faces this question head on.

Along with many other questions/issues about Star Wars and RPG's as a whole.

Man I love KoTOR 2.

Ditto.... As great as the first KOTOR was.... KOTOR II was probably the darkest thing I've experienced in the Star Wars universe. Obsidian had some great ideas with that game, and I'm annoyed that no one learned from them.

It drives me insane that they were forced to release an incomplete game though, it could have been 10 times better than it was.

Please Obsidian... go back and finish it.

 

[DEAD34345]

Sadly, Bioware themselves seem to be more than happy pandering to the idea of Light=Jesus, Dark=Satan. The first KOTOR was hardly a masterpiece of moral ambiguity, and the Old Republic is filled with such luminary Sith characters as Lord Scourge. I wouldn't go to them for any interesting analysis of the SW universe.

...God, how I want Obsidian to make another Star Wars RPG.

I never noticed how cartoonishly evil the first KotOR's villains were until I played it again recently. Malak's cackling is one example. A better example is when Darth Bandon is introduced as the next would-be assassin of the player. He strolls onto the bridge of the Leviathon, kills a few Sith soldiers and technicians (Why? Because he's bad).

I still love the game, but they could have made villains less of the Evil Stupid alignment. The Sith on Korriban are better, in all their manipulative backstabbing goodness.

The villains weren't so much "Evil Stupid" in my opinion, as self-doubting and therefore eager to try to show everyone how powerful they were. I actually really pitied Malak by the end of the game, because no matter how much he tried to hide it, he was simply never as powerful as Revan, and he was doomed to be overshadowed by him forever. The actions of him and his apprentice make more sense when you consider how hard they were probably trying to seem bad and powerful.

Of course that could just be me imagining things that aren't there, but with the way my ending played out, that's the impression I got. The true villain (Revan, for me) was never "Evil Stupid", just insanely powerful and ruthless. A true paragon of the Sith.

*Edit*

Spoiler: Malak's speech in the dark side ending

Yes... I cannot deny it any longer. [cough] You are the one who deserves... who deserves to be the Dark Lord.

You were the one who found the first starmap on Dantooine, Revan. [cough] It was you who lead us on our quest for the Star Forge. I only followed in your wake.

I tried to usurp your rule, to steal the title of Sith Master from you. But now I understand... The destiny is yours, Revan. Not mine.

You... you are Darth Revan. Lord ... [cough] Lord of the Sith. And I... I am nothing.

And so it ends as I somehow always knew it must: in darkness.

I always thought that ending had so much more depth than the other one, it's a shame that the light-side Revan is canon.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

From what I understand, the Jedi Code has been corrupted. The original code followed a structure of "X, yet Y", but was updated 'to avoid confusion' to "There is no X, there is Y". I feel that this has greatly crippled the Order's teachings. Tell me, which makes more sense to you?

There is no emotion, there is peace
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge
There is no passion, there is serenity
There is no chaos, there is harmony
There is no death, there is The Force

or

Emotion, yet peace
Ignorance, yet knowledge
Passion, yet serenity
Chaos, yet harmony
Death, yet The Force

I prefer the latter. It has much broader interpretations, true, but in a positive way. It acknowledges that these aspects exist, but it is possible to stay strong within them... to have peace amid emotion, serenity within passion, and so forth. "Ignorance, yet knowledge" is perhaps the most important, as it suggests that you can learn something valuable in the most unlikely and "ignorant" of sources; Obi-Wan demonstrated this when he sought out Rex in "Attack of the Clones".

A clever idea, but the "There is no X, there is Y" is chosen specifically because Jedi are supposed to see past these things. They acknoweldge they exist, but a Jedi is not supposed to have them. Where there would be emotion, there will only be peace, etc. Also, in a line like "There is no ignorance, there is knowledge" could be taken to mean that there is no such thing as "ignorance". Like you said, you can learn something from anything if you take the time to listen.

And just for fun, let's compare the Sith Code:

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

It is entirely about shackeling the Force and forcing it to do your bidding. That isn't natural!

 

[MisterShine]

That's the conclusion that i had also reached before the whole revan thing.
But my opinion changed because in that matter i would have rather died than become some tool for a self-righteous know-it-all council.

This is in fact a position you can take in KOTOR 2, and still remain on the lightside.

And of course the force and the jedi being a negative influence on the galaxy is actually a major plot point and character focus, one of the many interesting things the second game brings up.

In the hands of great writers, the Light side/Dark side nature of the Force can become a fantastic tool with which to challenge standard expectations of morality and ethics. Bioware simply aren't up to that standard, however. KOTOR I is certainly a great game, but it's not a great Star Wars story.

Would you say though that any of the six movies show anything other than a very black and white portrayal of the force and jedi/sith characters? With the exception perhaps of Darth Vader in Return of the Jedi.

I wouldn't say the movies did myself, and if Bioware stuck to that kind of black/white storytelling out of respect for the movies, isn't that a legitimate defense of their use of that style? Just because some of the EU material doesn't do it, does that mean they all have to?

Don't get me wrong, I thought the KOTOR 2 style was leagues more interesting, I'm just pointing out another view.

 

[DEAD34345]

Meh. I don't feel the villains ever showed any self-doubt in KOTOR I. The problem with trying to justify stupid actions by applying psychology is that you need subtext in order for it to work, and sadly I think KOTOR I lacked any such subtext. The only pathos for Malak comes right at the end where you defeat him, and he utters a few lines of "Oh you beat me, you must have been so special all along, etc etc." The rest of the time, both him and the rest of the Sith spend far too much time cackling and blowing up planets to actually display any human emotions.

Here's a question for you: how many scenes are there with Darth Malak where he does anything other than laugh evilly or order his subordinates to do something nasty? How many scenes are there where we see he's actually a human, and is capable of such emotions as fear or (as you suggest) insecurities? The only one I can think of is the flashback to when he and Revan are on Dantooine, and I'm loathe to include that because a)it's a flashback, and b) it's before he became Darth Malak. As an actual villain, he does nothing but act in every stereotypically evil way that he can think of. Not once does anyone call him out on it, and not once does he ever question his own actions.

Darth Vader was a villain who could you believe had conflicting feelings and self-doubts. There were enough scenes of him in Empire and Return trying to actually reach out to Luke that he became more than just the Emperor's lapdog. Hell, in Return you can practically see the doubt running across his mask as he watches Luke get electrocuted by the Emperor. None of the bad guys in KOTOR have any such scenes. They exist only to throw obstacles at the player, and there's not a single point where they ever show any genuine reasoning or emotion beyond "UNLIMITED POWAAAAAHHHH!"

Like I said, it could just be me over interpreting things, but the way that he seems to act without emotion or fear is what says he's insecure and scared. He's always trying to show everyone how evil and powerful he is, he laughs maniacally and blows things up all the time, he basically acts exactly as I would expect someone who doubts how powerful they are to act. Revan on the other hand is always shown as a cool and collected villain, he doesn't need to show off because he knows how powerful he is, and so does everyone else.

You said it better yourself: "As an actual villain, he does nothing but act in every stereotypically evil way that he can think of". If you knew you didn't really deserve to become the Lord of the Sith, and that you only got the position from your old master by a stroke of luck, would you ever admit it? Of course not, you'd spend all your time trying to show everyone how badass and powerful you were, and you'd try to convince everyone (including yourself) that you could have defeated your old master even without that stroke of luck.

Actually, when you first meet him he even says that some of the other Sith have been doubting him because of the fact that he never defeated you in person. He wants to kill you in order to finally prove that he would have been able to do it, it's really not that large of a leap to consider that one of the people he most wants to prove it to is himself. Then, at the Star Forge, he sends everything and everyone other than himself out to get you, and he knows it won't work (he says so himself). If he honestly thought he could take you he would have done so right then, but instead he delays you in an attempt to set up the Star Forge to help him defeat you. After he fails even then, he finally just admits that he can't defeat you, and that he knew this all along.

 

[joe-h2o]

I think the coin toss between the Sith and the Jedi is similar to that between Babylon 5's Vorlons and Shadows - neither side is inherently good or evil per se, although that is the typically presented status quo, both sides have done things that are extremely morally questionable and arguably "evil" in furthering their goals.

It's more about ideology than it is about good/evil in black and white.

(Slightly off topic, but if you are in the market for some *truly great* scifi, Babylon 5 is well worth your attention, despite being quite old now - it is well worth sitting through the slightly cheesy Season 1, because it is one of the masterpieces of SciFi on television across all 5 seasons).

Understanding is a three edged sword... your side, their side and the truth.

 

[Right Hook]

I wouldn't call the Jedi Order a bunch of contradictory bull crap or assume that this makes the lore weak. If anything the fact that a lot of jedi say one thing and do another is very interesting to me. Where some may see continuity error, to me it comes across as realistic, people all have individual ideas and many have overarching beliefs as well. A lot of people are willing to throw their beliefs out the window if it means they can further a goal and put themselves in a better spot, although they would never tell you this (everybody has an excuse for the things they do).

The Jedi are not infallible as much as some of them would like others to believe, many contradict their own beliefs which is something that lends great credit to Sith beliefs. The Sith just do whatever the hell they want, they might be awful people but nobody is going to call them hypocrites. It basically comes down to whether or not you think being bound to the jedi order and striving to accomplish good is worth your almost inevitable failure at times. The code isn't perfect and it isn't perfectly observed, there are different interpretations of the code, it's exactly like religion, eventually perhaps the force will realize it has placed too much faith in sentient material beings and strip its power away from them. Then it will only be something read about in books.