Laid Off Dev Accuses Codemasters Of "Unlawful" Conditions

Sylveria

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TsunamiWombat said:
Secret world leader (shhh) said:
Why does it only seem to be the games industry that pulls shit like this on such a regular basis? You don't hear this kind of thing from hollywood, and music industry complaints are only ever artistic ones.
Strong Unions. The VGI crushes unionization movements whenever possible, for just this reason.
There's also an issue of worker volume and skilled labor. A lot of "behind the scenes" workers in the movie industry are pretty specialized and relatively difficult to replace even if the unions weren't an issue.

Beyond that, while being a game programmer is very skilled work, there's a huge glut of people willing to do it and they're so desperate to get into a very small amount of opportunities, they'll do it under almost any conditions. Really, if people want this kind of stuff to stop, there has to be some sort of developer union that picks these people up the instant they graduate.

If anything, there needs to start being an emphasis on going to school for something more practical. Game dev work may be your dream, but if most of these people had a lucrative backup career that compliments their skill set, they wouldn't be so willing to work in sweatshop conditions.
 

Berenzen

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Sylveria said:
Hey I have some job openings for you. It's 80 unpaid hours a week, but you seem to be for slave labor, so come on Toby, there's work to be done.
When did I say anything about constant unpaid labour? They get paid something like 70 grand a year, not to mention bonuses if the game does well. And it's not like it's year round. It was for <=50 days. Crunch time happens in the game industry, it's not like Codemasters is the only company that does this. The only reason why this has cropped up is because a less than mediocre game failed, the company wasn't able to pay bonus' because it had no more money left, and they accidentally sent him and some other employees checks due to an error in the books. He's not entitled to the extra money- it was a mistake, and typically you're supposed to check any abnormalities with management before you cash it.

So yeah, it's not a nice story, but the company isn't in the wrong here. He agreed to unpaid overtime, he cashed a check that had an error on it without checking it with management, and now he's bitching about it. It comes off as him being an entitled brat because he didn't know what he was getting into. Maybe the story is different, I don't know what the conditions at Codemasters are, but with the fact that we're given. I feel very little sympathy for the man.
 

rabidmidget

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The professional game industry really needs to update its regulations, individual employees are basically powerless because they can be easily replaced by the endless parade of wide-eyed, university students who will do anything for a job in their beloved game industry.

It's probably part of the reason why the indie game community is growing.
 

Starke

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Crono1973 said:
So is it legal to not pay overtime even if an employee agrees to work "off the clock"?
Honestly, to an extent, it's not legal to work an employee "off the clock" at all, in any way shape or form. Overtime on hourly employees is still clocked, though if this is measured by literally clocking in and out or by filling out time sheets later.

As to unpaid overtime? Usually no, it's not legal. If you're an intern it may be different (I'm not sure if you can ask interns to work overtime at all, honestly, since you don't pay them anyway), if you're on salary, it very definitely can be different. It wouldn't surprise me if there's an exemption for the legislative and executive branch (in the US) (a lot of workplace laws don't apply to the legislative or executive branch of the Federal government), but I don't know.
 

Starke

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LorienvArden said:
Berenzen said:
Here are the companies choices-
Allow them to not do overtime-> risk not finishing the game on time, guaranteed failure. Increases cost because of increased time. With money they may not have. Decreases chances that the game will sell as well do to lost interest

Paid the workers overtime-> Substainally increases cost with money they may or may not have, needs to sell more copies. Risks being a commercial failure

Don't pay the workers overtime through "optional" unpaid overtime-> Don't increase cost of development. Game gets out on time. Less risk of being a commercial failure.
Actually, it is by far more costly to delay the release of a product then to pay overtime.
The best way is to actually manage the project professionally and adjust the budget ahead of time. I haven't worked on software development, but from all the talk surrounding it, "crunch time" is a certainty that you better prepare for.
Though, from the analysis I've seen, in the long term a more costly one. The problem is that people who are sleep deprived, and stressed simply don't work as efficiently, and effectively, as people who are in a relaxed environment.

I'm not saying crunch time is evil per say, but I am saying that it has a detrimental affect to the finished product.

While it's easy to say, in the short term, it is more expensive to delay the release than to simply slam people at a wall until the product is released, the quality control issues in the resulting release do represent a financial loss that is much harder to effectively asses.

LorienvArden said:
A company like codemaster has no excuse NOT to have the experience and manpower to have proper project management.
I can understand that developers like cerberus (Sword of the stars I&II) have huge problems releasing a AAA title on time and are forced to release a buggy piece of software at the end of their deadline. They are a tiny studio working on their second title.
Codemaster has been around for AGES.
I'm wondering if part of the problem is also that, with a smaller developer, it is easier to assess the limits of a project. Whereas if you're being backed by a major publisher who's throwing money at you hand over fist, it's much easier to promise the moon and then throw live bodies at it.

I mean, there are a lot of potential factors, and I'm not saying "you're wrong", but it strikes me that feature creep (not in the normal sense, but regarding the industry as a whole), defining what you must include in your AAA title may also be a contributor.

LorienvArden said:
Extorting your developers is a common practice, but for the wrong reasons. Loosing experienced developers hurts your company. If you risk not getting paid for your work, would you sign a contract if you had a chance ?
I believe that from the vast numbers of programmers that want to get into game development only a percentage actually is experienced and talented.
Alienating them actually hurts companies because the uncertainty and cost of future projects is significantly higher then if you kept them in your company.
Why ?
Because they gain specific experience in working with the company, enabling them to translate that knowledge into a more streamlined and efficient development of future titles.
It's also probably worth pointing out that if you're actually dealing with turnover in a project you're losing time bringing new people up to speed. If you figure it takes one-two weeks to get a new person on a project up to speed on everything going on, that means you've just lost that much time, plus the time the position was left unfilled on the project. Simply adding more live bodies, especially at the expense of trained ones, actually reduces the amount of time available to work on the project, whatever that is.

LorienvArden said:
If you lay off programmers with every project and hiring staff to fill gaps later on, you never build up that experience and get an unmotivated workforce that WILL never ever finish ahead of time. Think of it like comparing experts to a bunch of chained slaves. The slaves will propably build you a nice building someday, but a group of experts will do it faster and cheaper in the end.

Why is it still beeing done ? Because quarterly reports look way better if your project is not hogging human resources and instead just sports a nifty bill for contracted labor.

Shareholders in those companies lack the knowledge to realise that by forcing profitmargins to maximise their gains they effectifly gut the company and increase the risk of failed projects.
I'm not sure if it's honestly a lack of knowledge, or simply a lack of interest. If you invest in a company you only care if it's making money, how they make money is basically irrelevant unless it is something absolutely insane pops up. Even then, there's got to be some assumption that the business you're investing in knows what they're doing, otherwise why did you give them your money?

LorienvArden said:
OT:
Afaik it is acceptable for companies not to pay overtime for managers etc. if it is agreed upon in the contract. Those contracts usually provide incentives for those jobs like bonuses based on success.
Unless specified in the contract, employees have to be paid for overtime. The employee CAN agree on not beeing paid, but not speaking out against a statement from management can't be construed to agreeing to those conditions if a written contract contradicts those terms. The employee can always demand payment as promised in the original contract.
Yeah, you're talking, basically, about an estoppel... basically.
 

weirdee

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so THAT'S why they had a hack attack

was beginning to think that the targets were chosen out of boredom
 

GeneralFungi

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If a company gives me a check, then that money is mine, right? Who gave them the right to suddenly say "Whoops! That wasn't your cash after all! Pay us back or you'll be bankrupt!" You gave him money. There are no take backs. That's his to spend. Do I really need to explain the concept of giving/paying to companies?
 

Krantos

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Fawxy said:
I would have loved to have taken the gamble and attempt to become a video game developer. But, I chose a safer, as well as more reliable path. Why? Because people who work on games have to put up with this shit non-stop. I believe I heard somewhere that the average time worked in the game industry is 5 years per person. Ouch.
Pretty much my stance. I get my Bachelors in Software Engineering in a couple of months. My initial thought was to try to work my way into the game industry. However, after doing some research and finding some alarming statistics (10 hr days standard [not crunch time], getting paid 30% less than comparable positions in other industries, etc.) I decided to look elsewhere.

I really think the industry is in for a rough time if they can't iron this shit out. It's going to come down to not being able to find enough talented people because everyone who can has already gotten a better position elsewhere, and frankly, that's going to be most people. Look up "Top 10 in demand Jobs," Software Engineer makes every list I could find.

Being able to say "You work in the GAME INDUSTRY! You should be HAPPY!" can only get you so far. Sooner or later, the industry is going to have to pay the piper, so to speak.
 

Denamic

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Crono1973 said:
So is it legal to not pay overtime even if an employee agrees to work "off the clock"?
If it's voluntary, it's legal.
It is not legal to require it.
Unfortunately, they easily sidestep this issue by simply firing people who don't work overtime for free in favour of hiring those who are willing to.
It's pretty much unspoken blackmail.
 

illmuri

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Perhaps he should file another grievance against the horrendous use of commas in the email from HR.
 

tsb247

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Why does it not surprise me that this is coming from Codemasters? They are a failure as a development company. Other than the DiRT racing series, I can't really think of one truly successful release from them in the last decade. The whole company needs to just go away... All they do is release half-baked garbage, and it appears that they treat their employees like crap as well.
 

Morty815

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Mygaffer said:
Morty815 said:
I can completely confirm what this man says, my brother, Mohammad Dabiri recently worked at Codemasters (Guildford branch), he left in 2010 but has kept in touch with many of the programmers he met there, last he spoke to me about it, he said they were running the place like a nazi camp.
Way to publicly out your brother's comments, if true that kind of thing can effect future employment, I'd let him know you reposted his comments with his NAME online. See if he is ok with it.

Anyway, it seems like these guys know there is always a fresh batch of young, wannabe developers out there willing to put in the long hours for low pay, so they don't feel they need to do things like follow employment law. I personally believe every word of it. Whoever actually admitted to it in that e-mail is a complete idiot btw, whether you told the employees they would not be getting paid for extra hours or not you STILL have to pay them for time worked, at least where I live.

I hope a few of these companies get nailed and nailed hard for this stuff. It is the only way to stop it from happening.
Way to make assumptions without any prior knowledge, my brother has moved to Iran where he has started his own game company, thanks.
 

Jumplion

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Berenzen said:
While shit like this happens, and some of this story is horrid, if you're working in the game industry, you should know that during crunch time, you are working for extremely long periods of time, typically without pay. Developing games isn't a 9-5 job. Hell, many jobs aren't- I know University professors that continuously work for 14-18 hours every weekday. If it was massively continuous periods of time, then its starts to change, but I haven't really seen evidence that attests to that. 400 hours overtime? If you work a 16 hour day, that's still only 50 days of overtime, and it was probably even less than that. That EXPECTED when you work at a game development company.

There are really only a couple things that I can see that Codemasters did wrong- they didn't give a 24 hour rest period every 7 days- which would actually be detrimental to the development- and the fact that they're asking for the money back. I can see their side of the argument here though. If they were really on a strict deadline, that 7 day work week could be a solution. As for them asking for the money back- typically if you get an abnormal paycheck, it's probably a mistake. A bonus- at least in my experience- is presented as a separate check.

So yeah, little sympathy for the guy
There is always at least one person who puts this kind of post in every news article like this, I am absolutely sick of this kind of thinking against developers who demand to be treated more like dignified workers than sweatshop laborers. I would respond to your other posts, but I really don't have the energy to do so.

Does crunch time happen? Of course. Is this case of 400-hours overtime (about 2 months maybe?) uncommon? Unfortunately no. Is the scenario where the company gives some bullshit reason why the developer is not to be compensated for their work? Is that shit okay? No! This happens all the time in this industry, the big companies cheat out their employees over overtime pay or bonuses, usually by firing them before they have to deliver compensation. It's disgusting, ridiculous, and illegal, so why the hell would anyone support that kind of behavior? Because it's become such the norm that they should just bend over and accept their situation?

It should never come between being treated like a human in a work environment and receiving a paycheck. If someone has to be used and abused and not be compensated for their extra hardwork that they did most likely to show the company how valuable they are, and most likely get fired anyway, just for a paycheck that probably won't last (and is subject to refunds, like shown in this article)

It's this backwards logic of "Oh, those employees probably deserved to be buttfucked!" and "They should have known they were going to do overtime!" (even though that wasn't his argument, just that he was not compensated for some bullshit reason), or even the defeatist statement of "This happens all the time, what do you care/what are you going to do?" We care and we're pissed because it affects the games that we love. Creative minds are getting out of school and into the industry only to be squeezed and burned out by the companies that want to make a quick buck, and then tossed out like they're used tissues. It's ridiculous, and something I hope to change when I get into the industry.
 

-|-

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Sylveria said:
Hey I have some job openings for you. It's 80 unpaid hours a week, but you seem to be for slave labor, so come on Toby, there's work to be done.
And what opinion would you have of somebody that said "yes, I'll do it"?