Lara's Damsel in Distress

Trishbot

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m19 said:
To fix Samantha, just give her some strength, skill, and determination.
So it's now a requirement for every female character to be strong, skilled, and determined?

Because god forbid there is ever a woman completely unfit for roughness who would curl into a ball crying and then walk obediently to her own execution. Like that is not known to happen to people, man or woman. Don't forget she stole that radio though.

To fix her just make her more interesting in general. Not everyone has to be useful in a fight to be worth something.
I agree. You don't need everyone to turn into a superhero in your game. Tomb Raider was already filled with nearly EVERYONE doing this, and even Sam herself had moments of killing others and fighting back.

The problem happens when a character that is MEANT to be strong, skilled, determined, brave, rough and tough winds up curling into a ball crying for stupid reasons (I'll never forgive Metroid: Other M for what it did to Samus as a character).
 

rofltehcat

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Trishbot said:
I agree. You don't need everyone to turn into a superhero in your game. Tomb Raider was already filled with nearly EVERYONE doing this, and even Sam herself had moments of killing others and fighting back.

The problem happens when a character that is MEANT to be strong, skilled, determined, brave, rough and tough winds up curling into a ball crying for stupid reasons (I'll never forgive Metroid: Other M for what it did to Samus as a character).
There is also the problem that she seems to be the only weak character. I haven't played the game but in the article she is described as the only one being completely useless. She should at least be carving arrows, carry water, help the medic character or something...
 

Susan Arendt

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kailus13 said:
Would making Samantha a child have made her a better character? Praising Lara because she wants to grow up to be her, helpless because she hasn't learned any life skills, etc etc. I haven't actually played the game, I'm just asking.
Hmm...now that's an interesting idea. It would remove any expectation that she could save herself, and also serve to reemphasize that part of Lara's journey is one of adulthood - she starts off a child herself, but ends up an adult by the end of her adventure.

Yes, I think that would actually work - you just need a good reason for a child to be on the expedition in the first place. The obvious answer is that her parent is on board, but then it would be the parent's role to rescue her, not Lara's. So then by necessity you have to kill or otherwise incapacitate the parent - but even then, the focus is still going to be on that parent/child relationship. (But that affords some potential parallels with Lara's own broken relationship with her father.)

Interesting narrative idea!
 

Colt47

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the December King said:
It almost sounds to me like Sam represents us more than Lara, like this is how most people would 'realisticly' end up behaving in similar situations, instead of like Kratos the Archaeologist?

But, I haven't played the game, so I can't pretend to see the full picture on this.
Realistically, someone might act like that at first, but we tend to adapt rather quickly when our lives are on the line. Look at any extreme real life survival story and you'll see plenty of people do things they'd never think they'd do just to make it back home again. The reason why this character is annoying is that she doesn't seem to have any kind of natural survival inclination at all. She is like an object. :(
 

Madmonk12345

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m19 said:
So it's now a requirement for every female character to be strong, skilled, and determined?
Nope.

Sam is expected to act like a real person would act.

in order to meet such demands, she needs to either be more strong, skilled or determined in some form, or she needs to change in age or maturity to match her current actions in game. This is only in Sam's case. I can think of several cases where characters need less strength, determination or skill - Eragon comes to mind as the most immediate example, where he is too speshul to act like a real person, picking up skills on everything he does almost immediately after he encounters them to the point it breaks suspension of disbelief. A female example would be Molly Moon who went from just getting the power to hypnotize people to getting the power to stop time to getting the power to travel through time to getting the power to shape shift. It eventually stops being believable.

If they are going to make Sam weak and useless, I expect them to do it consciously, and use it to examine why it is done in the first place.

If the plot doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter if it changes such that Sam is not incompetent, and if a character must be depicted as weak and useless for the plot to function at all, then pick a different end goal in your supposedly irrelevant plot.

This isn't exactly a high bar.
 

Formica Archonis

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I absolutely hate that sort of character, but... I've known people that stupid. Walking down the street and some freak comes out of an alley with a sick grin and his erect penis out, and her first reaction was to run TOWARDS the probable rapist. She just ran towards threats, unarmed and whimpering, whenever they appeared. More than once she was saved from a potentially dangerous situation by a friend who grabbed her and pulled her back.
 

Redd the Sock

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m19 said:
To fix Samantha, just give her some strength, skill, and determination.
So it's now a requirement for every female character to be strong, skilled, and determined?

Because god forbid there is ever a woman completely unfit for roughness who would curl into a ball crying and then walk obediently to her own execution. Like that is not known to happen to people, man or woman. Don't forget she stole that radio though.

To fix her just make her more interesting in general. Not everyone has to be useful in a fight to be worth something.
If anything it's more realistic. People love to think they'll be the hero or the survivor in a hard situation based on the harshest thing they've been through is an insect sting or sports injury. In reality, look at Sam's situation: alone, tied up, surrounded by guys she doesn't know need her alive for a while and look more likely to kill her if she does anything funny and really no where to run to if she did get away. All that's enough to put most people out. Add in she's not a survivalist, but someone barely in their 20s filming what is essentially reality television and it suddenly sounds unreasonable to expect she'd craft a makeshift weapon and try to hack her own way away from her kidnappers. I think we sometimes forget how much plot armor main characters get and transpose similar expectations on the supporting cast. If Lara can hack through hundreds of cultists with a makeshift ax, bow, and stolen guns Sam should be able to do the same. But Lara gets away with it first as the main character and second as a video game character provided with ample tools, solutions, and enemies dumber than soup.

Not to say I didn't make most of the final run riffing about a lack of personal motivation to rescue this girl. She wasn't much more of flat lump of a character than the rest of the cast, but as awesome as the scenes were, I really didn't care if I saved Sam or not.
 

thehorror2

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I think the plot could have been improved greatly if they'd just folded Sam together with a "funny-guy" role and only have her get captured once, towards the tail-end of the game. We have few enough funny female characters in games already.
 

rofltehcat

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Is there actually a section in the game (tutorial area?) where you get to know her a bit better and maybe get to actually like her?

From the game's premise the ship sounds like a perfect place for that with it being a confined space with not that much to do.
 

JediMB

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Trishbot said:
~snip~

I don't think Sam is the best character in the game, by any means, but she's FAR from as useless and docile as the article makes her sound. In two playthroughs, I very clearly see her struggling, I see her fighting, I see her killing, I see her being resourceful, I see her grabbing guns, acting at times reckless, defiantly standing up to the villains, and fleeing for her life. I also see her being petrified with fear, I see her being freaked out and confused, I see her being weak and human... and, ultimately, she is NOT as capable, or brave, or strong, or smart, or resourceful as Lara is.
*claps*

Thank you for filling in the blanks Shamus so conveniently left in his retelling of the story. My personal strongest memory of Sam was when she was running from the cultists during the escape from the castle, as she did her best to hold them off with her gun. Her actions weren't any less impressive than those of Jonah, Alex or Reyes, who at least had each other to rely on for backup. Not everyone can be Roth, Angus or Lara.
 

JediMB

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rofltehcat said:
Is there actually a section in the game (tutorial area?) where you get to know her a bit better and maybe get to actually like her?

From the game's premise the ship sounds like a perfect place for that with it being a confined space with not that much to do.
You basically get to know her through a couple of video clips and diary entries. I think that was sufficient, although I certainly wouldn't say no to more dialogue-oriented gameplay.
 

Blade_125

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I'm glad to see someone gets the real problem. This trope is just lazy writing, as it is in just about every story where it is used. You need some reason for your main character to be doing whatever it is they are doing, so invent a reason for them to go to X. Of course giving more development to the damsel character would require more work and who wants to do that.

I also like how you pointed out that the role is typically given to women, but it's the lazy plot device that is the problem in the story. The fact that women usually occupy this role is a reflection of society, not something that contributes to gender equality.

Thanks for the great article Shamus.
 

CriticalMiss

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When Sam is being led to the soul-sucky area, Matthias has more than his pokey spear. He has a pistol too. Lara even steals said pistol from him in their final confrontation. So even though he wasn't leading her up the mountain at gun point, he possibly made it clear to her that he had a gun and would shoot her in the knees and drag her painfully up the mountain if need be.

I didn't find Sam all that annoying to be honest. She could have been better written though.
 

MeChaNiZ3D

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Some characters are just plot devices. It's that simple. Not everyone is capable of defending themselves, not everyone has any chance of escape, not everyone keeps their integrity under stress, etc. but none of this even matters when you're dealing with a character whose sole purpose is designating a destination for the player. I honestly don't even know why we examine these characters as if they were meant to have integrity themselves. Although, while functionally she does just get dragged around, there are times when she IS reckless and fights to escape. She's not quite as hopeless as the article says. In the end...yes, it's lazy to just say "this is a character you care for, and you can't leave without them", but how many other good reasons are there when the protagonist is clearly putting themselves at unnecessary risk, repeatedly?
 

Shamus Young

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m19 said:
To fix Samantha, just give her some strength, skill, and determination.
So it's now a requirement for every female character to be strong, skilled, and determined?
No, that's how they could fix Samantha to bring her in line with the other NPC's without making a whole new game.

m19 said:
To fix her just make her more interesting in general. Not everyone has to be useful in a fight to be worth something.
I said exactly this in the article.
 

Pedro The Hutt

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I wouldn't call it a great article when parts of the plot have been blatantly ignored, and I frankly expect better from Shamus.
 

m19

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Madmonk12345 said:
If they are going to make Sam weak and useless, I expect them to do it consciously, and use it to examine why it is done in the first place.
There is no reason to expect that. She is gentle 'weak' girl who can't handle the situation. Her function may be boring but there isn't anything inherently wrong with it. Most real people don't actually act any different at gunpoint. The story is about Lara's journey.

Shamus Young said:
I said exactly this in the article.
I thought you put most of the emphasis on her resisting in whichever way she can. Which is what I mean by "being useful in fight", sorry if it wasn't clear. She didn't need to be like the rest of the crew. Why would they all be the same anyway. Someone has to be the sheep, forgive the bluntness. And that's ok.
 

Rednog

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I honestly didn't really mind Same being so trope-y because the whole support cast is one trope or another.
You have the steeled mentor who has to die off to push the main character off the edge into vengeance mode.
Then there's the traditional pacific islander who has to be the voice of the mystical juju that's happening.
Then there's the professor who is basically twirling his big evil mustache who has a giant blinking red sign that says "I'm totally going to betray you"
And finally the strong black female who isn't going to take shit from anyone because shes a real woman and she's going to tell it to your face.
 

Dooly95

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Trishbot said:
Also, on topic and to counter Shamus, I'll admit I wasn't a big fan of Sam in the game... but I didn't dislike her either. The article cherry picks the worst moments with Sam while entirely ignoring the GOOD moments.

I'd say that, for starters, both times Sam is kidnapped it's by people she trusts (she hadn't yet realized the island had cultists when she meets Matthias, and nobody thought Whitman was THAT crazy that he'd kidnap her later on), and she likely was muzzled or knocked out when it happened.

Secondly, Sam WAS shown to be resourceful. She states outright she stole a radio off the guard, attempted to contact someone, anyone, with it to let them know what was going on and how to find her, and then, when Lara saves her for the first time, she has a gun and USES it, killing several armed islanders herself and FIGHTING her way to freedom with the rest of her crew.

Also, she, herself, while being Lara's close friend, has MANY journals and narrations talking about her love for history, film, and her connection to Himiko. She DOES have a life outside of Lara, but Lara's the one with the instinct, talent, and drive to get stuff done, and it's unfair to ignore the many thing she doesn't say about Lara while ignoring the many things the OTHERS say about her, because they all DO have an opinion of Lara, some of them quite negative.

And the finale, of "battered" Lara carrying "fit" Sam back down... Sam just had her very SOUL sucked out of her body, her very life and being nearly destroyed, her body consumed whole and everything that makes her a living person stamped out. I don't think it's that unreasonable to assume she's more half-dead after that than Lara was.

I don't think Sam is the best character in the game, by any means, but she's FAR from as useless and docile as the article makes her sound. In two playthroughs, I very clearly see her struggling, I see her fighting, I see her killing, I see her being resourceful, I see her grabbing guns, acting at times reckless, defiantly standing up to the villains, and fleeing for her life. I also see her being petrified with fear, I see her being freaked out and confused, I see her being weak and human... and, ultimately, she is NOT as capable, or brave, or strong, or smart, or resourceful as Lara is.

Even then, if Sam, who isn't THAT bad of a character (even if she serves as the plot mcguffin), is the worst element of Tomb Raider, I think the game did very well, all things considered. It's simply that characters like Lara, Jonah, Roth, and the others were just more interesting, active, and charismatic.
This needs to be addressed more, or at least taken note of.

Unless you needed everything to be spelled out for you in cutscenes, Sam wasn't the horrible damsel Shamus paints her to be.

Maybe a tutorial session on the boat before the crash where we're introduced to all the characters may have been nice to help clear the crap a bit.
 

OtherSideofSky

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Trishbot said:
OtherSideofSky said:
Man, the last time I saw a Tomb Raider game it was about using glowing green alien Excalibur to fight an angry goth chick and her smoke monsters while a large supporting cast of people Lara knows and the player doesn't appear and disappear seemingly at random. What happened? I mean, at least that ended up being funny.

[I'm not counting 'Guardian of Light' because its plot was 'Hey remember that Tezcatlipoca story line from Spriggan? This is that'.]
In this game, it was about using flaming napalm arrows to fight an angry undead Japanese Empress and her zombie samurais while a large supporting cast of people Lara knows and the player just met appear and disappear at random.

I still don't know why some people feel that "out there" element of Tomb Raider is missing. Right around the time the vortex of souls was destroying the mountain while a 20 foot tall Oni is swinging a 500 lbs mace at my face while a zombie queen is merging her soul into the body of my best friend I thought "yeah, this is definitely Tomb Raider-levels of crazy. Awesome."
I'm not saying the crazy sci-fi/fantasy element is missing, just that there are now a lot of other things in addition to it which the developers clearly thought were more compelling than I found them to be. I'm not saying it's bad, or even that it's worse than previous Tomb Raider games, just that I feel there are ways, sometimes fairly obvious ways, in which it could have been better. To put it another way, I did not spend nearly as much time laughing at the plot as I had hoped to.

Also, the plot reminds me that I cannot afford to import the remaining volumes of Yamataika, and that makes me sad.