Lauren Southern speaks to Feminists at "SlutWalk".

[Thaluikhain]

While I disagree with western societies with actual consequences for rapists being called "rape cultures",

The vast majority of rapists will not face consequences, however.

True, but that relates more to the difficulty of convicting rapists and the limited widespread cultural perception of what rape is rather than the use of rape as a punishment or deterrent as it is in some other countries. Western societies generally regard the concept of "rape" with a huge weight and social stigma, I feel uncomfortable describing said cultures as ones that permit or encourage rape (as a term like "rape culture" would suggest).

I'd rather attribute such a term to cultures that celebrate sex slavery or cultures that enforce strict modesty laws for women, where rape is regarded as justifiable. In certain holy texts, gods advocate raping and pillaging. Those cultures actively revolve around rape, and as a result I find the term "rape culture" more applicable there. If not, do they warrant an even bolder term?

I realise this may only be a semantic issue, but it appears that semantics are a pretty big obstacle in the communication of these ideas.

Well, my problem with that is that those cultures you'd say were rape cultures also tend to think of what they define as rape as wrong, only their definition of rape is limited. The same could be said of society in general of Western nations, only the limits aren't nearly as narrow. People don't tend to support rape as such, they support acts that don't count as rape to them for one reason or another.

 

[Dizchu]

Well, my problem with that is that those cultures you'd say were rape cultures also tend to think of what they define as rape as wrong, only their definition of rape is limited. The same could be said of society in general of Western nations, only the limits aren't nearly as narrow. People don't tend to support rape as such, they support acts that don't count as rape to them for one reason or another.

I'm not sure if the two are so easily comparable. In the west, consent is generally regarded as being between those involved in the sex act. The problem is with loose interpretations of consent (for example if someone is drunk and flirty that could be interpreted as "yes", while others like myself would never consider that consent).

In the kind of "rape cultures" I pointed out, consent comes from an external agent. Whether that be a god or the government or very strictly imposed traditional values. That's why such cultures may consider sex before marriage an abomination, because in their eyes they do not have the consent of their deity. These same people will use religious or traditional justifications for things like corrective rape or marital rape (which many of these societies don't recognise as rape).

You could consider the concept to be entirely relative. I mean, I encourage sex education that would disambiguate consent and result in an even greater intolerance of rape in the west. But surely there's a dividing line between what is and what is not a "rape culture"?

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'm not sure if the two are so easily comparable. In the west, consent is generally regarded as being between those involved in the sex act. The problem is with loose interpretations of consent (for example if someone is drunk and flirty that could be interpreted as "yes", while others like myself would never consider that consent).

In the kind of "rape cultures" I pointed out, consent comes from an external agent. Whether that be a god or the government or very strictly imposed traditional values. That's why such cultures may consider sex before marriage an abomination, because in their eyes they do not have the consent of their deity. These same people will use religious or traditional justifications for things like corrective rape or marital rape (which many of these societies don't recognise as rape).

Hadn't thought of it like that before. However, even in Western nations, marital rape is often seen not to be rape. Now, legally it is, of course, but there is still a substantial amount of people that think marriage (or a relationship, or going out on a date, or being in bed together) constitutes, or outweights, consent.

You could consider the concept to be entirely relative. I mean, I encourage sex education that would disambiguate consent and result in an even greater intolerance of rape in the west. But surely there's a dividing line between what is and what is not a "rape culture"?

OH, sure, it is relative. But, there is a very large amount of rape in western societies (and a very small relative amount of convictions, which may or may not be relevant in context). I have a hard time believing that a society with large rates of something doesn't have a culture of that thing, even if it nominally opposes it.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

But surely there's a dividing line between what is and what is not a "rape culture"?

You're going to have to start by defining "rape culture". From Wikipedia (however reliable that is going to turn out to be):

In feminist theory, rape culture is a concept in which rape is pervasive and normalized due to societal attitudes about gender and sexuality.

Behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, refusing to acknowledge the harm of some forms of sexual violence, or some combination of these. The notion of rape culture has been used to describe and explain behavior within social groups, including prison rape, and in conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire societies have been alleged to be rape cultures.

Do you see anything in there you can agree with? Because I do. Prison rape is used as a punchline for a lot of people. Female on male rape is widely considered a joke. The question of whether or not a woman "dressed too slutty" or somehow "asked for it" still comes up with regularity. If an accused person is popular...say, a comedian or an athlete...the victim will often be attacked, and accused of trying to ruin their life (Steubenville was classic in this case, with a lot of major media outlets openly pontificating about the poor boys and their ruined athletic careers). There are university fraternities that until extremely recently still had pro-rape chants. "Get raped" or "I will rape you" is still a common go-to insult or hilarious "troll" on the internet, particularly if the target is a woman. And on and on and on and on.

How does Southern respond to the question of the existence of a "rape culture" in the west? "Not all men rape", she says. BAM, DEBUNKED. Or Penny Arcade's classic "I don't think listening to a rape joke will turn me into a rapist". It's very hard to have a discussion about "rape culture", in part because by its definition it is "some combination" of a variety of psychological phenomena that can be difficult to prove, and in part because some people are so bothered by it they literally cannot stop themselves from straw-manning it in order to tear it down.

I don't know what I think about it, but I feel it's reasonable to approach it from a position of intellectual curiosity, rather than the dogmatic obdurateness Ms. Southern displays.

 

[Dizchu]

Behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, trivializing rape, denial of widespread rape, refusing to acknowledge the harm of some forms of sexual violence, or some combination of these. The notion of rape culture has been used to describe and explain behavior within social groups, including prison rape, and in conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire societies have been alleged to be rape cultures.

While I believe things like prison rape, war rape and marital rape to be examples of the use of sexual assault/coercion as a means to dominate (which is what I'd consider "rape culture"), that's not usually the context in which "rape culture" is referred to. For example, SlutWalk itself. It specifically addresses issues of sexual objectification and the idea that certain individuals are "entitled" to sex, but things like the kinds of rape that I mentioned are seldom discussed. To empathise with the victims of prison rape is considered relatively taboo, for two primary reasons. Male rape is taken less seriously and prisoners are not widely empathised with by the general public (I bring up male rape because prisoners are overwhelmingly male, I'm not suggesting that female rape in women's prisons doesn't exist).

You bring up examples of instances where rape apologising occurred, however when news broke about Steubenville for example, there was a huge backlash. Restrictive dress codes and conservative standards of modesty are routinely mocked. As far as trolls using rape as a taunt on the internet, I think it's evidence of how absolutely incendiary the concept of rape is that they resort to using it. It is seen as one of the absolute worst things you can say, something that guarantees a reaction. It is precisely because it is deemed to be the absolute nadir of taste and compassion that trolls use it.

How does Southern respond to the question of the existence of a "rape culture" in the west? "Not all men rape", she says. BAM, DEBUNKED. Or Penny Arcade's classic "I don't think listening to a rape joke will turn me into a rapist". It's very hard to have a discussion about "rape culture", in part because by its definition it is "some combination" of a variety of psychological phenomena that can be difficult to prove, and in part because some people are so bothered by it they literally cannot stop themselves from straw-manning it in order to tear it down.

I'm no fan of Southern or her tactics. What frustrates me particularly is that there is a valuable discussion to be had, but the direction she's approaching this from is absolutely wrong. Sure a bunch of anti-feminists will lap it up, declare it as a "gotcha" against feminism. To me I don't oppose labelling the secular west a "rape culture" because "not all men rape", of course they don't all rape and only the most deluded feminist would suggest otherwise. What I am uncomfortable with is the tone of language which seems to encourage a moral panic.

I'm glad that people are discussing topics like consent and sexual objectification, because they're open to interpretation. But the umbrella term "rape culture" lumps that in with things like sexual violence, prison rape, war rape, gang rape, etc. Which are near-universally condemned. "Rape culture", like "patriarchy", "capitalism" and even "religion" just seems like a big, bad villain that one can rally the troops against. Instead of campaigning against something that is simultaneously monolithic and nebulous, I think it's a better idea to pinpoint the specific problems. The specific problem those in SlutWalk are addressing is "the misunderstanding of consent".

 

[Ishal]

(Steubenville was classic in this case, with a lot of major media outlets openly pontificating about the poor boys and their ruined athletic careers).

Eh... I'd attribute that more to Sports Culture in America than a "Rape Culture."

If the boys who committed the crime in Steubenville were ordinary schmucks instead of the nigh-demigods on the popular sports team, I suspect an entirely different reaction would have happened. One if favor of the victim, actually.

The West loves it's heroes, and thus it's drama surrounding them. Nobody wants to look at their fantasy (because in many cases, in their minds, that disturbingly what it is) as fallable and untrue. "Those kids could never have done that, they were on the sports team! Why, they're paragons of the values we try to teach our children!" "Bill Cosby could never have done that! Look at the character he played on TV! He's totally like that in real life, too! There's no way an actor could be different from a character they portrayed! Perhaps in a bad way!"

What I'm saying is. The more you try to have a discussion about these things, the more prudent it is to narrow it down. What you said are all problems. But I think they have their roots in different areas. They have their own problems. Does that make sense? A "Rape Culture" is just too broad a term.

edit: my last sentence was eaten...

Sports culture is another broad umbrella term like Rape Culture, but it is at least a step down in the discussion, bringing more focus. I don't think it should stop there. The discussion keeps going.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Eh... I'd attribute that more to Sports Culture in America than a "Rape Culture."

"Rape culture" purports to examine a tapestry of problematic attitudes towards sexual assault that permeate various cultures. One could very easily argue that the hyper-aggressive world of professional sports, where the athletes are lionized, protected, and forgiven all wrongs, would be part of that. It's not like it exists in a bubble, and effects nothing else.

What I'm saying is. The more you try to have a discussion about these things, the more prudent it is to narrow it down. What you said are all problems. But I think they have their roots in different areas. They have their own problems. Does that make sense? A "Rape Culture" is just too broad a term.

But it's meant to be a broad term. That is its purpose. It's an umbrella term meant to encompass a variety of individual problems. If each of those are admittedly problems, I struggle to see why there is a push-back against using an umbrella term to describe them. There is nothing fundamentally problematic or sinister about the usage of umbrella terms. You can argue they obfuscate understanding, or that individual people lose themselves in the vagaries, but that's a problem with the people employing it, not the term itself.

 

[Dizchu]

They're near-universally condemned but they're also near-universally permitted. You know what happened when Russians marched into Germany during World War II? Millions of women were raped without so much as a slap on the wrist for nearly all perpatrators. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany] That includes liberated Russian women, by the way. Of course, this isn't a uniquely Russian phenomenon. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Japan] This doesn't even include some of the most infamous examples in history, such as Nanking [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre], or My Lai [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_Massacre], which is not only quite infamous because of what happened, but is also rather infamous for having had no substantial consequences for the people who perpetrated it.

Thanks for all the links and stuff. I accidentally called prison rape "universally condemned" when I earlier said that people find it to be justifiable (because generally the public find it hard to empathise with prisoners). Rapes committed by soldiers is something that most people would wince at, but it carries on (like prison rape) because the environments in which they happen are different from those that most people experience. They're places where everyday social etiquette and ethics are abandoned, and the battlefield is full of very volatile people due to PTSD and the like.

The point I'm trying to make is that those issues and the ones that generally affect civilians in the west aren't really interchangeable. There are certain environments that are comparable, but usually there'll be a different set of variables at play.

 

[Silvanus]

Methinks it's a bit of a distraction to try to provide a single, definitive answer as to whether a country is, or isn't, an "X Culture". A country's culture is so non-uniform, so inhomogeneous, that a 'yes' or 'no' isn't going to reflect the situation in any real way. For example, Lauren Southern had a fair point when she spoke about how people can lose their jobs over the allegation itself; however, that doesn't counter the arguments about campus instances, or wartime instances. They're talking about different sub-sections of society. Different elements of culture are far stronger (or weaker) in different areas, in different sectors.

There are more than a few valid issues with Slutwalk, but Lauren Southern didn't really properly address them. She went for the specious 'gotcha' approach instead, which is a shame.

Lauren herself was accused of being a rapist for conducting an interview which the feminist in question later disagreed with.

That didn't happen. The interviewee drew an analogy-- which I'd say was in tremendously poor taste-- but it wasn't an accusation of rape.

 

[Sigmund Av Volsung]

Gotta love the fallacies being thrown in that vid on both sides.

Messy argument to be honest. Still a bit funny where the leader woman asked her to provide evidence of "unreported rape" without realising the contradiction in that statement and that unreported crime is about as easy to track and quantify as "no of copies pirated".

Then again, she pulled a strawman later on in response to that woman who asked to withdraw consent so yeah...messy. Messy, messy argument. Best to scrap this playing field and draw up another one.

 

[Falling_v1legacy]

I'm gonna agree with Darks63 on the breathing. Its seemingly a minor thing, but I suppose that its emblematic of a larger issue with the whole video, which is that its rather amateurish. Generally counter-protests are poorly conceived and done in extremely bad faith, like the one in the video. You go to a protest and hold up a sign basically saying "the entire premise for this protest is bullshit", what would you expect? The whole thing reeks of gotcha journalism and antagonizing people so that you can sell their reaction for profit via a article like the above video. I mean, like when she went on that tangent about reported rapes, and at the end when she goes "so they are reported" I just facepalmed and stopped the video. As I said, done in extremely bad faith, which should've been made obvious in regards to the strawman of "rape culture". Hell, I don't even really believe in rape culture but at least I'm not going to strawman it to argue against it. No discussion value to be had with reporter in the video and the protesters, so I doubt that there would be any in this thread.

Gotcha journalism and amateurish. Considering Rebel Media is the result of Ezra Levant- our Canadian version of Hannity and Glen Beck rolled up into one, and that it began out of Ezra's living room after Sun Media capitulated (very right wing and tabloid heavy), I think you pretty much nailed it. They've been running since Feb 2015. I am not at all a fan of Ezra's confrontational tactics. Never have been, never will be. Where there is a reasonable point to be made, he will come in guns ablazing so that there is no reasonable discussion to be had. He gives the Canadian right wing a bad name and I, as a conservative voter, distance myself from him however I can.

 

[Dizchu]

Anywho, yeah, I'd say thats a good example of such an environment. You're intelligent enough that you should know that most victims are raped by people that they know. The majority of the time there's these sorts of systems at play, especially for younger people who can't really support themselves.

Yes that is a good example, though the rich and famous "social elite" aren't exactly representative of mainstream society. With their wealth, popularity and marketability they've been able to get away with some pretty nasty stuff, most often tax evasion but sometimes stuff as extreme as manslaughter. It's similar to why the Steubenville rapists got defended by certain authority figures and news outlets, they believed that a certain level of status elevated them above the moral standards they expected of others.

How would you describe such situations where certain media outlets and authority figures defend a rapist while most other people bay for their blood? I think it's distinct from situations where the public are also defending them. Obviously the rich have more influence than the average member of the public, but to me that makes it more damning when the public sees through their bullshit.

 

[MHR]

wait wait wait...

So feminists get together and walk around in revealing clothing? Huzzah! I hope this spreads.

 

[RJ 17]

You go to a protest and hold up a sign basically saying "the entire premise for this protest is bullshit", what would you expect? The whole thing reeks of gotcha journalism and antagonizing people so that you can sell their reaction for profit via a article like the above video.

Pretty much this, exactly.

I don't know what Lauren's other work is like, or what "The Rebel" is like in general, but this is the very definition of "bad faith". She's there to provoke reactions. And upon getting them, they quick cut away at the appropriate moment to tell a story. Look at this random person, temporarily at a loss for words when confronted by my antagonistic question! CUT AWAY!

There is absolutely a dialogue to be had, absolutely criticism that can be levied at fuzzy arguments. This is not how you do it. Not that it matters, there are people that will eat this shit up with a spoon, because "HURR HURR FEMINAZIS GITTIN GOT", but if you're an advocate of...I don't know...ETHICAL JOURNALISM...I don't see how you applaud this.

I'm reminded of Michael Moore's odious ambush "journalism". You're not interviewing people. You're not genuinely seeking information. You're just stirring up shit in promotion of a narrative.

EDIT: Oh Jesus Christ, I just looked at the rest of Rebel Media's playlist. Quelle surprise.

I will never understand how some reporters can operate like this. Like, do you just have to be a complete sociopath or just an idiot? Or both?

Then again, the same question could be asked about news pundints, car salesmen, assassins, clowns, etc.

It's basically the journalistic equivalent of click-baiting, that's why they do it. Pretty much the same reason this entire topic was created seeing as how the OP even admits that they really don't care about the topic at all and just wants the rest of the forum to "have at it."

Really gotta wonder why bother even making the topic in the first place if you honestly don't care about the topic. Because Click-Bait, apparently.

OT (I guess?): I always wondered why they called it SlutWalk...shouldn't they call it something like "NotSlutsWalk"? Spreading the point that even though they may choose to dress that way they're still Not Sluts?

I understand they're trying to be ironic...I just think it's a bit counter-productive to use irony in this situation.

 

[Azure23]

I have always been curious where the number of unreported rapes come from. What do you have to do to count a rape as reported? How do you come to a percentage when, by definition, you don't have information to draw upon since the acts are going unreported?

Further, could anyone help me get some numbers for the often cited one in five female American college students are raped before their studies are completed and they graduate. How many victims is that? How many perpetrators? I just don't know if I can figure that one out.

Seriously, any help would be appreciated with either of these.

Generally statistics on un reported rape come from anonymous census'. "Reported" in this case being a specific term meaning filing a police report. I was raped as a child and for a number of reasons never "reported" it, I have however participated in numerous anonymous census' in order to give public advocates better information to draw on. And, of course this is only anecdotal information, but in my interactions with fellow survivors (drawn from several IRL support groups and many, many online ones) I have found that the large majority of survivors don't "Report." I didn't know what a rape kit was, I didn't even really understand what had happened to me, but looking back now I can't imagine undergoing one after the fact, I don't think I would have been strong enough. That's to say nothing of the ridiculous circus of shaming and accusations that rape prosecutions almost always devolve into.

As for your second question, I'm not exactly sure where the one in five statistic originally came from, although people often cite a RAINN study that has since been debunked. About the number of perpetrators and survivors (the preferred name, although there are indeed victims, murder and rape can and often do go hand in hand.) generally you will always have fewer perpetrators than survivors, as numerous studies have shown that many rapists go on to commit multiple rapes, and as far as crimes go the recidivism rate for rape is relatively high.

I hope that clears a few things up. Always happy to offer insight to people asking sincere questions.