Lawyer Destroys Arguments for Game Piracy

Feb 13, 2008
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Difference between a pirate and a lawyer?

A Pirate gets something for free. A Lawyer gets paid to get something for free.

When the two of them face off, I'm sorta hoping for a no score draw situation.
 

Agayek

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Oct 23, 2008
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XMark said:
We're talking about completely different things here. If you go to Bittorrent and download a full copy of Skyrim for free online and never pay for it, you're clearly in the wrong.
How, precisely, is downloading a copy of Skyrim and playing that any different from borrowing a copy from a friend and playing that?

Either way, you're playing a game you did not pay for and have no intention of paying for. It's quite literally functionally equivalent. Especially if the person you borrowed from was already "done" with the game.
 

Baresark

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It's a pointless weigh in. You see, it matters not if he is a lawyer. Anyone who doubts the validity of a theft accusation is idiotic. But, defining it as theft better, isn't going to stop it. As a lawyer, it's no small wonder he doesn't see the logic in most of the "pro-piracy" arguments. But some of his arguments are not valid either. When it comes to IP tracking arguments, people in general only don't support it because they can see how easily an innocent person can be caught for piracy. People forget that laws are not supposed to target innocent people, only people guilty of crimes. I would never support a law that would allow innocent people to be falsely accused of crimes they may not be responsible for. The old, "you have to break a few eggs" argument is broken in this situation.

Lawyers, the world would might be a better place without them, except for defense attorneys, those guys are ok. :p
 

TsunamiWombat

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ph0b0s123 said:
Greg Tito said:
Purewal says there is really no evidence that most pirates have the desire or technical chops to effectively mask their IP address, and even if some did, that's hardly a reason to stop going after pirates. "There's no empirical evidence so far to support how often IP spoofing is done," he said. "In reality, I suspect fairly few pirates actually go to the trouble of disguising themselves. Besides which, just because the method is not perfect, doesn't mean we should throw our hands up in the air and do nothing, does it?"
No, but it does mean that companies need more evidence than just an IP address to take people to court.
Greg Tito said:
The notion that piracy does not equate to lost sales is just as erroneous.
No, it's not. Someone who pirates a game was not definitely going to buy it if they could not pirate it. So if you stop all piracy, it does not mean that all those pirated copies would turn into sales on a 1:1 ratio. This is hardly rocket science, but some people try very hard to ignore common sense.

How is this article titled 'Lawyer Destroys Arguments for Game Piracy', when he does not even discuss any pro piracy arguments. The only things he is talks about are evidential short comings of enforcement and the industries wrong assumptions about how much piracy is costing them.

Greg Tito said:
The arguments for game piracy seem a bit flimsy in response to stories like CD Projekt's DRM-less Witcher 2 being pirated more than it was purchased or this abominable list of pirated games from TorrentFreak [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/115003-TorrentFreak-Reveals-Top-Pirated-Games-of-2011]. The games industry can't just ignore these thefts, and no amount of backwards logic can argue the impact of piracy away.
And as I predicted in my comment to the top pirated games article, the figures now are being reported as fact even though they are ESTIMATES based on bad data collection methodology. And the two ESTIMATES don't even tally as if the Witcher 2 Piracy ESTIMATE was right, then the game would have appeared in the top 10 Torrentfreak article.

I don't like games being pirated and buy all of mine, but the reporting / journalism here on this issue, leaves a lot to be desired. All these badly sourced ESTIMATES do is convince developers to add more intrusive DRM schemes which only affect legitimate buyers, like myself.
There's a long and definative 'pro-industry' trend towards journo here as it relates to piracy, which oddly clashes with the Escapists vehement anti-industry stance when it comes to SOPA (a stance I agree with BTW). The dichotemy suggests, at least, it's not some sort of silly conspiracy, just Greg Tito reporting as Greg Tito believes. I don't really have a problem with that persay, but I think alot of these 'news articles' should be rightfully labeled as editorials.
 

Magnicon

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Another ignorant article written by an ignorant person using quotes from another ignorant person. It has been proven endlessly that piracy does not have a negative effect on industries profits, and if anything likely increases it. Proven. Fact.

If you choose to ignore the information made available, even just on this site alone, then you are simply an ignorant troll.
 

XMark

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Agayek said:
XMark said:
We're talking about completely different things here. If you go to Bittorrent and download a full copy of Skyrim for free online and never pay for it, you're clearly in the wrong.
How, precisely, is downloading a copy of Skyrim and playing that any different from borrowing a copy from a friend and playing that?

Either way, you're playing a game you did not pay for and have no intention of paying for. It's quite literally functionally equivalent. Especially if the person you borrowed from was already "done" with the game.
It's fair play to lend your game to someone else when you're done with it. It only becomes piracy if you work around the DRM or CD check or whatever so that both of you can still play the game.
 

CapitalistPig

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I have very little sympathy for game developers or pirates. Both have their own crosses to bear and each is equally to blame for the unique position that has developed from gaming frenzy. The reality is most people only play a few games and don't contribute very much to game developers. The idea of sale loss develops from failed arguments on both sides because most people who pirate don't end up playing them because most games SUCK. And if your game sucks then you don't deserve any money do you? And those that say it doesnt effect sales, well big name games that do get played a lot and don't suck get pirated too and people dont end up buying them all the time, thus that effects sales. (Queue a dozen replies angrily refuting that one)

let people play games first before they have to throw down for a $60 serial number and then we can talk seriously. Cause lets face it with P2P sharing that's all that you are really paying for anyway. The software while extensive is worthless. All that matters is that green light serial. And how about when game developers start behaving, gamers do too? Its an animal grab bag for consumer money out there. If both sides can come to any kind of conclusion then gaming might calm down into something respectable. But these days.... i dont know which camp is worse. I play free to play games cause i can download it first and play it before im gonna shove out $60 at the item shops. Thats what harmony is all about. You support me (AKA the happy gamer) i support you (the providing developer).

So pirates and game developers alike can all go cry all they want. I'll happily support my indie game makers.
 

xvbones

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TheMadJack said:
I currently own almost 200 games on Steam (plus uncounted boxed games, both old and new titles) and I'll admit I have pirated games.
Nothing else you said matters.

Everything that follows this sentence is nothing but rationalization and justification for your admitted theft of video games.

You used illegal means to gain goods with a commercial value for free.

You are a thief.

Period.

I do not, again, DO NOT, get pirated games because I'm a cheap ass customer. I do it because I want to have fun for the money I'm spending. Nothing else. Sadly, that doesn't represent the state of mind of most "pirates".
No, you stole those games because you didn't want to pay for them.

And you are no different than most 'pirates', as I am certain each and every one of them also has a bushel full of justifications, rationalizations and excuses they use to forgive themselves for theft, too.
 

xvbones

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Agayek said:
How, precisely, is downloading a copy of Skyrim and playing that any different from borrowing a copy from a friend and playing that?
Because your friend's copy that you borrowed is a physical game disk that was bought and paid for.
 

CrystalShadow

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Apr 11, 2009
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Dastardly said:
Greg Tito said:
The arguments for game piracy seem a bit flimsy in response to stories like CD Projekt's DRM-less Witcher 2 being pirated more than it was purchased or this abominable list of pirated games from TorrentFreak [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/115003-TorrentFreak-Reveals-Top-Pirated-Games-of-2011]. The games industry can't just ignore these thefts, and no amount of backwards logic can argue the impact of piracy away.
And now we are treated to the sounds of:

"It's not a lost sale, because they were never going to buy it anyway." (unverifiable ex-post-facto justification)

"Stop calling it theft. The publisher is not denied access or deprived of any property." (a "no true Scotsman" regarding the definition of "theft")

"Well the publishers need to stop being greedy, and maybe people will support them." (a deflection and complete change of topic. could be called "the Robin Hood defense.")

"If they made better games, maybe people wouldn't pirate." (logically inside-out, since any improvement to the game itself would equally improve the pirated copy. No disincentive is established.)

"People only pirate because of DRM." (reversal of the actual state of cause-effect, since DRM measures were created as a reaction to piracy, and DRM-less games are still frequently pirated)

So, now that we've got that out of the way, good article and I'm glad to hear lawyers weighing in on it.
Lol. Because I have nothing better to do.

1. "It's not a lost sale." Well, the counter-point, "It is a lost sale", is an equally unverifiable claim, and using it in some kind of mathematical calculation to imply you would've made X amount of extra money if there was no piracy is wishful thinking.

2. Correct as stated, but rather misses the rather more serious point that copyright law was never intended to imply that you 'owned' your work. Quite the opposite in fact. Your ability to financially benefit from your work through the use of copyright law is contingent upon you agreeing to give up any attempt to claim ownership of your work. Of course, this is tangential, because it has no direct bearing on piracy. Piracy is still copyright infringement, and still a crime, irrespective of if "Intellectual property" is a valid notion. - However, I really don't think "Intellectual property" is an idea that should be allowed to exist, because it has some seriously nasty and ultimately unworkable follow-on effects. (mostly in regards to such things as 'fair use', derived works, and the like. if Creative works were indeed property, by what logic could you even argue for something like 'fair use'? existing? No, this is something dependent upon Copyright not in fact being 'ownership'. - There are other problems too, but this is quite lengthy already.)

3. No problem here as such. Greed is evident, and problematic, but that is a completely different discussion that has no real direct relevance to piracy.

4. "If they made better games..." That's not really a meaningful statement in and of itself. If better is defined in terms of the game itself, it probably wouldn't have much effect. If however it is defined in terms of the consequences of copy protection... Then it becomes a rather different issue. Pirated games here are inherently better than their official counterparts, simply for being less likely to fail to run, or do weird awkward things to your computer. (Starforce and the like come to mind, but even basic CD checks can be really irritating.)
This however is an issue with the direct consequences of DRM, not so much with the 'quality' of the game itself.

5. "people only pirate because of DRM", Reversal of cause and effect? Well, yes, and no. It's true DRM exists as a response to piracy, but Cracks exist both as an aid to piracy, and as a response to people annoyed with the restrictions imposed by DRM. To say that DRM is solely a factor that reduces piracy, is to say that DRM never fails, and never does anything that annoys anyone. That is perhaps the riskiest calculation a game publisher can make...

What are the negative consequences on sales for implementing DRM? vs. What are the positive effects of DRM on sales?

Now, as a case in point, the OP states:

The arguments for game piracy seem a bit flimsy in response to stories like CD Projekt's DRM-less Witcher 2 being pirated more than it was purchased or this abominable list of pirated games from TorrentFreak. The games industry can't just ignore these thefts, and no amount of backwards logic can argue the impact of piracy away

This is after all an empty statement when you get right down to it. That the Witcher 2 has had more pirated copies downloaded than it has had sales, certainly demonstrates that removing DRM doesn't eliminate piracy. (Why would it?)

However, neither does it prove anything about the effectiveness of DRM. Have a look at the figures for games that use significant amounts of DRM, and you might notice that their piracy figures are pretty similar.

If anything, this calls into question the usefulness of DRM as a concept, because DRM takes a lot of resources to implement and deal with, and can potentially cause a lot of aggravation to your customers.
(Pirates aren't customers, and oddly, they don't really have to deal with DRM either.)
So... To bother with DRM, you have to have some decent evidence that you actually gain something from implementing it.

It's easier to go without DRM than with it, so the burden here is not to prove that DRM-free games aren't pirated, but rather that DRM is a worthwhile investment that actually improves your profits.

Yet, that is never the tone these kind of articles set. Nor is it even acknowledged incidentally that this is in fact the real question about DRM.
No point wasting money on something that doesn't work, so it's important to be able to demonstrate that it does something useful.

Anyway... That's enough silly devils advocate stuff for one day.
 

Don't taze me bro

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xvbones said:
Agayek said:
How, precisely, is downloading a copy of Skyrim and playing that any different from borrowing a copy from a friend and playing that?
Because your friend's copy that you borrowed is a physical game disk that was bought and paid for.
It also stands to reason, that your friend cannot play at the same time you are.

Also, do people really believe that piracy does not equal lost revenue? I know dozens of anecdotal situations from friends and associates where a purchase was planned, but due to the availability of a pirated version never eventuated.
 

Slycne

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Feb 19, 2006
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TsunamiWombat said:
There's a long and definative 'pro-industry' trend towards journo here as it relates to piracy, which oddly clashes with the Escapists vehement anti-industry stance when it comes to SOPA (a stance I agree with BTW). The dichotemy suggests, at least, it's not some sort of silly conspiracy, just Greg Tito reporting as Greg Tito believes. I don't really have a problem with that persay, but I think alot of these 'news articles' should be rightfully labeled as editorials.
Or simply that while tangentially related they are still two separate issues. Just as someone might vote Democratic, doesn't mean they are in favor of every policy put forward by their chosen representative. People are more varied than binary labeling.

I can be against the sweeping power that would be made available through SOPA and still think pirating videogames is bad as well.
 

OrenjiJusu

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I can honestly say that the only games i've downloaded without paying for have been abandonware or freeware, or were abandonware at the time. I don't think it's depriving profit if the company that made the game no longer exists, is it?
Any who, with more modern triple A titles i either buy it and try to make the best of it or wait for a demo/price cut.
 

Dejawesp

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A hundred downloads do not equal a hundred lost sales no but there are hundreds of thousands if not millions of people out there who pirate instead of buying and out of those many are "Lost sales" because they take something for free when the option is presented.
 

Agayek

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Oct 23, 2008
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xvbones said:
Because your friend's copy that you borrowed is a physical game disk that was bought and paid for.
But you're still playing a game you did not pay for (which is what publishers seem to want, everyone who plays pays). Beyond that, being a physical item doesn't change that you are being loaned something from someone and deriving whatever enjoyment you get from it, without paying a cent.

It's a perfectly legitimate practice, with everything but digital media, and people proclaiming that it's somehow different is fucking stupid. Any anti-piracy argument can, and should, be also applied to borrowing intellectual property items in the real world. If it goes in one place, it's fair game in the other.

XMark said:
It's fair play to lend your game to someone else when you're done with it. It only becomes piracy if you work around the DRM or CD check or whatever so that both of you can still play the game.
How is lending a game to someone any different from posting it on the internet? Either way, you're done with the game and someone else will now play it. The fact remains that file-sharing is functionally equivalent to loaning the item in question to someone. From an end-user AND from a developer standpoint.

Edit: To clarify a bit, I am not a pirate nor do I condone piracy. I buy/pay for all the media I consume, be it book, movie, TV, or game. I just find the argument that piracy is somehow inherently morally egregious and/or a new development to be laughably false.
 

Caverat

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Surprise, folks who pirate software get butthurt when their dishonesty is pointed out.

Any argument towards the justification of piracy is like a study begun with a confirmation bias, the end point is decided at the onset, and any reasoning afterward is just mental hoop hopping to get the result where they aren't the asshole.

Agayek said:
XMark said:
We're talking about completely different things here. If you go to Bittorrent and download a full copy of Skyrim for free online and never pay for it, you're clearly in the wrong.
How, precisely, is downloading a copy of Skyrim and playing that any different from borrowing a copy from a friend and playing that?

Either way, you're playing a game you did not pay for and have no intention of paying for. It's quite literally functionally equivalent. Especially if the person you borrowed from was already "done" with the game.
Well, for starters, there is only one copy. When you're reading/playing it, your friend isn't. Unless one of you is sitting on the other's lap, or something, hey, I'm not judging, to each their own.

But copying it makes another of the product, which in no way is permitted in any interpretation of consumer's rights or the TOS agreements of using the developers' product, unless someone is a complete fucking moron with serious entitlement issues.

But hey, I can see you like analogies, I like em to, here's another one for ya:

Stating software piracy is like lending a book to a friend is like saying abortions are murdering a child. It's literally functionally equivalent, a human organism is prevented from getting any older.

Seriously, if you can't see the difference between lending someone a book and making a digital copy of software and letting thousands, potentially millions access a copy of that, thereby making thousands or millions of copies of the product at nothing going to the people who made the product.... What the hell? Are you just trolling? Is there someone that stupid on the planet? I mean, I shouldn't be surprised, but, I guess I'm just surprised someone that retarded could manage to figure out how to use a computer at all, let alone happen to post here at this forum.
 

MoNKeyYy

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Jun 29, 2010
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LilithSlave said:
but in the meantime it means a financial loss for the developer
NO, it does not. That logic is incredibly erroneous.
If you're playing their game without a sale going to them it represents a financial loss. One used game represents one sale to them and then the owners of the property doing what they will with it. A pirated copy represnts one sale copied hundreds or thousands of times and distrubuted for free or at low cost, with hundreds of copies distributed but one sale going to the publisher/developer. That's a financial loss, plain and simple.

Even if you go into more broad economic terms, pirated copies (especially 2-3 million in the case of Crysis 2 or the Witcher 2) means a significant increase in supply with a drop in demand, which leads to reduced cost and less money in the pockets of developers and publishers.

Kwil said:
TheMadJack said:
I currently own almost 200 games on Steam (plus uncounted boxed games, both old and new titles) and I'll admit I have pirated games.

Why have I done it? Titles that look fun but have a dubious feel to it; I usually end up testing for a couple of hours (more or less) then make a decision if I want to acquire it or not based on fun-factor.

Bulletstorm is the lastest I have gotten (Not long after release and I was both horrified and relieved). Horrified at the dullness of it. Relieved that I hadn't spent 40, 50$ bucks for it.

Now, understand that if there were demo versions of those dubious games in the first place I wouldn't even have to download all that data. I would be happy to download a smaller set of the game itself, test it out; the mechanics, the fun I'm having and replayability potential, to finally be able to make a decision based on personal values I find important in a game.

In the last two years I might have downloaded 5-6 games and bought NONE of them. But you know what, I didn't even finish any either. I played a couple of hours, didn't like my experience then uninstalled/deleted the whole thing.

I do not, again, DO NOT, get pirated games because I'm a cheap ass customer. I do it because I want to have fun for the money I'm spending. Nothing else. Sadly, that doesn't represent the state of mind of most "pirates".
You do it because you're a lazy-ass gamer, who puts your own immediate needs ahead of those who actually did the work to make the game.

Case in point: http://www.joystiq.com/2011/04/04/bulletstorm-pc-demo-now-out-on-steam-and-gfwl/

There ARE demo versions, you were just too damned lazy/impatient to bother finding them.
Agreed. By your logic, when I go see a movie the most sensible thing to do is to sneak in and watch the first half or maybe the whole movie before I make a decision regarding whether or not I want to pay to see the movie, then going to the box office and buying a ticket afterwards.
 

Exile714

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You know, there's a better argument against piracy that would appeal to many posters here: it hurts PC GAMING.

Console gamers pirate less than PC gamers. That's why all the money is going to console games.

Quit arguing law and morality with these people, it doesn't get through to them. Just tell them that their vaunted "gaming rigs" are going to see less games over time because they keep pirating. Nothing else seems to work.

Or, just stop developing for PC's cold turkey and put major DRM on the consoles themselves such that modders are easy to catch. /piracy