Legend of Korra: The Beifong Bunch

[Reasonable Atheist]

I loved the first series so much, and i really really want to like this one too. I have been watching every episode as they come out and I am just getting more and more pissed off. I do not know if I have ever seen a series where the protagonists could easily solve their problems so often and simply don't because that would ruin the story. FFS bolin can lava bend now? nobody else around can do that, what stops him from creating a small pool of lava under the train and just screwing up everything for kuvira? Why does nobody just metal bend kuvira's stupid armor into her chest and kill her? Why don't they just have any generic fire bender shoot a lightning bolt at her and fry her ass? Why does bolin immediately after using an earth bending tunnel to escape and exploding train, completely forget that he can do that and try to pass the earth kingdom wall at the garrison instead of just going under it? Driving me crazy.

Fair enough, but that sort of nitpicking can also easily be applied to the original show as well. I mean the entire end of the show pivots on the kinda dumb idea that Aang only won because he got hit in the exact right spot to magically cure his chakra or whatever to conveniently let him go all Avatar at the last moment. That's pretty lame.

Same with the whole moon spirit thing where super conveniently the moon spirit can be reborn in some princess because it healed her or something and blah blah how awfully convenient. And what about that whole fire nation invasion thing, why didn't Aang and his buddies ever ask the water tribe for help instead of just giving up after the Earth Kingdom fell? They have an army too and their leaders are supportive of the Avatar. Meanwhile where even are all the adults throughout this? Other than Iroh it seems every adult in The Last Airbender is either incompetent, evil, irrelevant, or another absentee parent that shows up for one or two episodes before vanishing off screen for one contrived reason or another.

Also I like how the episode after Aang goes through a massive emotional meltdown is followed up by a dance party episode, talk about inconsistency. The entire series was full of filler like that, especially the first season where it seems the creators hadn't yet decided whether they wanted to do a serious story or a silly one. Anyone remember that episode with the canyon? Man that was lame. Oh, and what about that giant drill thing attacking the Earth Kingdom city? The walls are defended by earth bender, why couldn't they just have collapsed the ground under the thing instead of only throwing rocks at it like a bunch of idiots... oh right, because they're adults, naturally it takes a bunch of prepubescent kids to solve this amazingly complex riddle of a drill being defended by a trio of teenage girls.

Speaking of which why the hell are Azula's buddies so damned overpowered? Some sort of fire academy is mentioned so I assume they all studied there together, do they teach all those moves there because if so screw having an army, why doesn't the Fire Kingdom just unleash all the angsty teenage girls on their enemies? They're obviously more capable.

Man, it's like it's a cartoon or something.

Coincidence i can stomach pretty easily, and i feel like the armies of the earth and water nation were pretty well represented in their goals mostly being just barely hanging on against the fire nation's superior forces. Azula's highly skilled buddies also dont really bother me. My biggest problem is with characters having extremely poor judgement for plot sake, in the first series i always had the feeling they were struggling the best they could against an overwhelming enemy. In korra it feels like kivira would be so much easier to defeat then the fire lord but they just dont try. Especially since shes so willing to join battle personally, they could even gang up on her but just dont take the opportunity for no discernable reason.

Also aang going from sad to happy made sense to me, after seeing all the turmoil in the lands he knew so well, visiting the fire kingdom and realizing the whole world has not been devastated, the fire nation's prosperity picks his spirit back up. He has compassion even for his enemies.

As for the adults being useless, its because their spirits have been crushed by war, they have been on the defensive for so long its all they know, and this is reinforced when the children ask for help. One of the earth nation leaders is so desperate he's risking life and limb to push aang into the aviator state to try and use him as a wmd like when he destroyed the whole fire nation fleet at the north pole. Only the members of the white lotus, and the most courageous sailors of the water nation are ready to stand up and really fight.

My biggest issue with the first series was the lack of recognition by aang and Saka of just how many people they have killed at sea and in the air.

Another big issue i have with korra is how often the characters snap at each other over seemingly petty issues after everything they have been through together and the bonds they have formed, feels like forced drama.

 

[The Madman]

Coincidence i can stomach pretty easily, and i feel like the armies of the earth and water nation were pretty well represented in their goals mostly being just barely hanging on against the fire nation's superior forces....

snipped for length

...Another big issue i have with korra is how often the characters snap at each other over seemingly petty issues after everything they have been through together and the bonds they have formed, feels like forced drama.

The entire plot of The Last Avatar is built on unlikely coincidences, everything from there being a moon princess to stumbling across Toph to how the Fire Nation are defeated and even Aang being discovered in the first place, and unlike Star Wars or various fantasy settings you can't just hand-wave it away with 'The Force' or 'Fate/God' as being the cause. It's shoddy story-telling that's overlooked because the shows characters and story are otherwise so enjoyable.

And as for bad decisions and characters creating forced drama, there was plenty of that in the original as well. Practically everything Zuko ever did, Toph and Katara arguing, Sokka being whiny and making dumb jokes, etc. Heck remember that time Katara was making Appa sick to help some town out in yet another filler episode? Or Jet and everything Jet related? There was tons of that stuff, often used as excuses for plot in filler episodes which is why it's so often overlooked.

Meanwhile saying 'the adults are tired' is a pretty poor excuse for why they're all so incompetent and useless a bunch of kids can take them all down. Heck Aang and co. took on the entire Earth Kingdom army with ease and later those same people are thoroughly outmatched by a teenager girl and her cohorts, they're worthless. How the heck that kingdom didn't fall earlier is probably only because the Fire Kingdom never considered sending their teenagers at them sooner, because obviously when giant drills are the best everyone else can think of we're clearly dealing with morons fighting more morons here. Even Stormtroopers aren't this useless. Toph herself meanwhile is a giant deus ex machina, she's so absurdly skilled and powerful she might as well be Avatar's version of Goku for how useless she makes everyone else, and just like Goku the plot has to constantly think up new reasons why she can't just kick everyone's ass all the time. Oh, it's too sandy. Oh, she's tired. Oh, she's conveniently somewhere else and can't help. Oh, Aang has to do it.

... But you know what, with all that said I still genuinely do love The Last Airbender. I really do, I don't want to seem mean-spirited. It's a fun and endearing show that I look forward to watching again and again in the future... even if I might skip a few episodes every here and there. I'm willing to overlook those problems because as with most things, nothing is perfect and for all its flaws there's enough heartwarming goodness there to make them seem petty by comparison. Toph is fun, Sokka is entertaining, Katara is sensible and endearing, Aang is endlessly likable, Zuko is an adorably misguided but kind-hearted idiot, Iroh is Iroh, and Azula is just a downright awesome villain.

For me Korra is much the same. The teenage angst in season 1 was boring, if I wanted that crap I'd watch degrassi or whatever, the lack of an overarching plot between seasons is frustrating, Season 2 was generally of poorer quality than the other seasons full of silly coincidences and Jinora acting as that seasons Toph-tastic deus ex machina, etc. But it's also done a great job of addressing some of the stuff even TLA overlooked or glossed over like Season 4's spectacular 'Korra Alone' episode where unlike Aang Korra is actually forced to deal with her issues. I love that the age of the cast is so diverse, I mean what other animated series out there has a pair of middle aged women as some of their most badass characters? Lin and Suyin are great! I like that as the series goes on and the characters grow older we get to see them learn; we've got less teenage angst and more maturity from characters like Korra. Bolin also has gone from the boring comic-relief support to a genuinely endearing and lovable goofball in my mind. It's also pretty damned mature when it wants to be, none of the ambiguity of 'it's really unclear' when the Earth Queen was murdered, the Red Lotus straight up killed her, beat the shit out of Tenzin, and poisoned Korra in one of the most intense sequence of episodes to grace the Avatar series yet. Also anyone remember that time Lin straight up stabbed a guy to death? That was badass! The action sequences, music, and art are all also downright spectacular. If nothing else Korra is always guaranteed to be a feast for the eyes and ears.

So a few foibles every here and there I'm willing to ignore or gloss over. Why hasn't anyone taken out Kuvira? Probably because in every scene in which she's confronted she's been backed up by her soldiers. Heck when Korra and her fought she literally had an entire army at her back, and it's no stretch to think there were reinforcements on their way in that fight at the canon. Sure the Beifong's might have been able to take her out and ruin the gun, but Toph doesn't strike me as the sort willing to risk sacrificing her entire family for the sake of an assassination.

In any case sorry for the long post and if it seemed aggressive, I guess I'm just tired of seeing the 'Korra sucks, TLA is amazing' debate that pops up so often when Korra is mentioned. And for once I'm actually not doing much right now so I've got time to write up giant pointless short article length posts to argue a point only three people will read.

Whatever the case Korra will be over soon enough anyway, so for those who hate the show at least it will be over soon. Me though? I'm going to be incredibly sad once it's over. I've really enjoyed both TLA and Korra and it's going to be sad to see the series end, possibly forever.

 

[MrHide-Patten]

Lots of nitpicking about "why didn't Toph destroy the gun", Ju-li has been picking apart the gun and they are constantly FIXING it. They're metal-benders, screw hammers and welding gear. Kuvira can probably glare at a dint and presto.

My only quibble of the series is that Kuvira went from, a driven if harsh leader to... Hitler basically, with the segregation of non earhbenders, slave camps, etc. With the mech's and death rays it just feels like Wolfenstein or something.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

Lots of nitpicking about "why didn't Toph destroy the gun", Ju-li has been picking apart the gun and they are constantly FIXING it. They're metal-benders, screw hammers and welding gear. Kuvira can probably glare at a dint and presto.

My only quibble of the series is that Kuvira went from, a driven if harsh leader to... Hitler basically, with the segregation of non earthbenders, slave camps, etc. With the mech's and death rays it just feels like Wolfenstein or something.

I do hope at some point, perhaps building up to the final confrontation, we get a little more detail on exactly what Kuvira's story has been the past three years (perhaps even a whole episode from Kuvira's perspective). There's the skeleton of a really compelling villain here: A lowly soldier stepping up to repair a broken nation when no-one else was willing or able to, perhaps becoming harsher step by step through repeatedly needing to prove her strength, until eventually she lost her way and became a tyrant (this would be a fitting interpretation, tying in with that speech Toph gave earlier on about how all the villains in Korra so far have had at least somewhat noble goals, fighting against real injustices in the status quo, but being far too extreme about it). However, we're lacking a lot of that flesh right now.

What back-story we have been given certainly suggests her motives at the beginning were altruistic. She saved Tarlok's life in Book 3 and was loyal to Suyin, until Suyin refused to do anything to unite the Earth Kingdom, and eventually she decided to take matters into her own hands. However, the two big holes in her story are how she got from disagreeing with Suyin, to poisoning her own son against her and dividing the loyalties of what would appear to be a large portion of the Metal Clan (It's kind of unclear just how many metalbenders there are outside of either Zaofu or Republic City, or whether Kuvira has been training her own). Then, later on, how she went to wanting to make her own kingdom whole again, to wanting to harness spiritual energy to subjugate the whole world.

It's not like every villain needs to be relatable and human. Ozai sure as hell wasn't, but what he lacked in depth he made up for in pure menace. Despite all the posturing, Kuvira just doesn't have the same kind of presence as the guy who wanted to burn the world pretty much just 'cause he could. With that in mind, the story could really use some more detail on how she got to where she is. As much as I do commend the show for wanting to tell more complex, thought-provoking stories than it's predecessor, I often feel like the creators don't have the confidence (maybe in part because it's still under the Nickelodeon banner) to really run with that idea to the extent they need to. Kuvira is just the latest, and perhaps most glaring, example of this.

 

[Reasonable Atheist]

I think the story of avatars wan has been by far the best of korra, and i for one miss the "filler episodes" that tla had so many of, contained cool little stories kinda the way x-files and star trek had alot of. Makes the world feel more real and intriguing with all the characters with their own lives and struggles. In korra i really like Jenora and ikki, chief beifong. By far my favorite is Varrick. But i must say, I find korra to be so unlikeable, at the start of the series i thought i was going to love her, being such a prodigy at so young an age and with so much drive. I really thought she would be a more vicious take no crap from anyone ass kicking tornado of fire and rocks. She has disappointed me, but i think there is still time for her to make up for it, and i have my fingers crossed that she will show some army devastating power soon.

On a side note, i am also hoping for a new type of airbending to manifest in one of the children or boomy. Earthbending has metal and lava, fire has lighting, and water has bloodbending.

Also how cool would it be if some descendant of the destroyed fire nation fleet from the north pole tried to take revenge against the avatar's children or korra for what amounts to use of a weapon of mass destruction.

 

[balladbird]

So much this. I wanted Toph to either singlehandedly destroy the Sister Ray I mean Junon Cannon I mean spirit vine laser, or tear Kuvira to shreds. Not literally, of course, but strip her of her metal plates and swat aside all her attacks like they're nothing more than pesky flies, then just leave with family and family's boyfriend in tow, leaving her with the knowledge that the only reason she's not being dragged fighting tooth and nail along is because Toph doesn't consider her worth the effort.
.

Wow, dude, I like Toph as much as the next guy but that would have been... a terrible thing to do, story-wise. XD Talk about deflating the climax of a conflict, proving that the only reason there's a big bad this season at all is because a little old woman doesn't want to be bothered with it would have made the whole season seem kinda pointless.

does anyone know if they're gonna post the last two episodes together?

 

[MrHide-Patten]

I do hope at some point, perhaps building up to the final confrontation, we get a little more detail on exactly what Kuvira's story has been the past three years (perhaps even a whole episode from Kuvira's perspective). There's the skeleton of a really compelling villain here: A lowly soldier stepping up to repair a broken nation when no-one else was willing or able to, perhaps becoming harsher step by step through repeatedly needing to prove her strength, until eventually she lost her way and became a tyrant (this would be a fitting interpretation, tying in with that speech Toph gave earlier on about how all the villains in Korra so far have had at least somewhat noble goals, fighting against real injustices in the status quo, but being far too extreme about it). However, we're lacking a lot of that flesh right now.

Considering the last 3 episodes are titled; 'Kuvira's Gambit', 'Day of the Colossus' and 'The Last Stand', sounds like either 3rd last or the very last where the fleshing out will happen. Hell a last minute; 'oh, now I get it' would be strangely satisfying personally. I?m honestly looking forward to when she just snaps, and the calm demeanour just goes right out the window, and Zelda breaks out the 'fuck everything' voice (keep forgetting she does Kuvira's voice).
Although I am calling 'Day of the Colossus' is Kuvira's GIANT Mech, and that the sprit gun is just fancy pee shooters it has attached (why'd she need to cut down the giant tree and tear apart the domes for, ehhh?!).

What back-story we have been given certainly suggests her motives at the beginning were altruistic. She saved Tarlok's life in Book 3 and was loyal to Suyin, until Suyin refused to do anything to unite the Earth Kingdom, and eventually she decided to take matters into her own hands. However, the two big holes in her story are how she got from disagreeing with Suyin, to poisoning her own son against her and dividing the loyalties of what would appear to be a large portion of the Metal Clan (It's kind of unclear just how many metalbenders there are outside of either Zaofu or Republic City, or whether Kuvira has been training her own). Then, later on, how she went to wanting to make her own kingdom whole again, to wanting to harness spiritual energy to subjugate the whole world.

I'm sure there's probably something pretty dark in her history, as a lot of the people under Suyin used to be undesirables or have some sorted pasts (don't know if they've ever said how young she was when Suyin brought her in). Maybe a back-story similar to Bolin's and Mako's, other benders offing her parents, giving her a biased 'racism' against the other benders.
During the last episode it was great to see junior trying to save Opal, suggesting that Batar will be torn in the final episodes, when Kuvira wants him to go all Macbeth on his family.

It's not like every villain needs to be relatable and human. Ozai sure as hell wasn't, but what he lacked in depth he made up for in pure menace. Despite all the posturing, Kuvira just doesn't have the same kind of presence as the guy who wanted to burn the world pretty much just 'cause he could. With that in mind, the story could really use some more detail on how she got to where she is. As much as I do commend the show for wanting to tell more complex, thought-provoking stories than it's predecessor, I often feel like the creators don't have the confidence (maybe in part because it's still under the Nickelodeon banner) to really run with that idea to the extent they need to. Kuvira is just the latest, and perhaps most glaring, example of this.

Well a lot of Ozai's characterisation came in part from Zuko, as he was for most of the series, a Threshold guardian. He was also a product of the families "history" becoming tyrannical, or as the quote goes; 'Absolute power corrupts absolutely' and seeing as how the Fire nation pretty much owned everything at that point, that's a lot of power.
Although Zaheer is nice contrast, as he wasn't just the evil archetype, even helping Korra an episode ago (which I found rather neat). It was when the whole; 'yeah we gotta kill ya in one of the most agonising way possible' when he sort of made his: I'm the Bad Guy shift.

Although I'm just curious as to how this is all going to close up, as this is the final, FINAL Avatar (especially with the show?s creators being in the mind of; 'yeah, think we're done with the whole Avatar Universe now'). There's obviously a lot of pressure to top or eclipse the finally of the original series

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

snip

One things for certain, if they don't tie off the Avatar Universe in a permanent way, the pressure to keep going back to it will be strong. I mean, I wouldn't want them to keep writing stories after they'd lost all passion for the project, because that would suck, but a part of me is still admittedly rooting for them to carry on in some form or another, at least until we've had an Avatar from each nation get their own story. On the other hand, tying in to what I said before about confidence... the show has been asking the question this season particularly of whether or not the world 'needs' the Avatar any more, or if it ever did. For all the teasing though, I don't see them having the guts (regardless of whether or not it would be a good idea) to end Korra's run by answering that question with a "No. I guess that's that then."

I mean, could you imagine the rage if they did that?! That might even top Mass Effect 3, in terms of endings that fans interpreted as flipping them the bird at the last minute, and telling them that nothing they got invested in really mattered.

The ultimate choice of what to do with the universe will always be down to them, and if they don't carry on then they don't carry on. However, I'm pretty certain that Korra will end fairly traditionally, with the Bad Guys losing, and the Avatar's place in the world being affirmed, even if Korra herself dies in the process (which would be an especially big cock-tease if they don't plan on following any more Avatars (I'm not saying that's likely to happen btw, just acknowledging it as an outside possibility)).

 

[happyninja42]

Kind of a bullshit copout that the greatest earthbender there ever was did nothing more than give the big bad a stern talking to.

Your family is in danger and you choose not to wreck the doomsday rail gun? Yeah a'reet, seems legit.

Did you not watch the end of the episode? She says exactly why she's not fighting. She isn't in phenomenal shape like Bumi was. She probably would've seriously hurt herself doing something on that scale.

So it's better to leave the uber death ray machine to wreak havoc on the world? I'm pretty sure that Korra and the Korraites are going to risk seriously hurting themselves to stop the weapon when it's inevitably pointed at Republic City at the climax. No reason other than "We can't have Toph be the badass she is, because she will upstage Korra" makes any sense.

Well to be fair, Kuvira's forces built the damn thing pretty quick, and destroying it wouldn't destroy the knowledge of how to build it. All it would achieve is Kuvira would probably rock up to Rebublic City with a reinforced version.

If the end of the series isn't going to focus around actually destroying that gun, I would agree with you. But it will, we both know it will. That's going to be the climactic scene. The guns going to be pointed at Republic City, and it's going to be powering up, and Korra and the gang are going to have to stop it. They're not going to deal with the "knowledge of it is out there", the show is going to pivot around destroying the gun in time to save the day, then queue the resolution. Saying there's no point in destroying the gun seems wrong to me, even if it delayed them, that gives the good guys more time to try and stop Kuvira. And it doesn't matter that they're metal benders, it still takes them time to fix it. Ju Li's sabotages of very minor things is a clear example of how long it takes them to fix it. She would break one or two tiny things, and they'd be shut down for like a day or two to fix it. If Toph had crumpled that thing like a beer can, it would've set them back to square one, which means more delays, which means more time for the good guys.

There isn't any scenario where leaving the weapon intact is a good thing for the good guys. They didn't have her smash it because the show isn't The Legend of Toph, even though I would enjoy that show way more.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

If the end of the series isn't going to focus around actually destroying that gun, I would agree with you. But it will, we both know it will. That's going to be the climactic scene. The guns going to be pointed at Republic City, and it's going to be powering up, and Korra and the gang are going to have to stop it. They're not going to deal with the "knowledge of it is out there", the show is going to pivot around destroying the gun in time to save the day, then queue the resolution.

Not necessarily. I'm inclined to throw my lot in with MrHide-Patten here, and guess that the currently rail-mounted, fixed canon is little more than a test platform for something far bigger. As big as that canon is, it doesn't look like all the metal in the domes of Zaofu went into making it.

Saying there's no point in destroying the gun seems wrong to me, even if it delayed them, that gives the good guys more time to try and stop Kuvira. And it doesn't matter that they're metal benders, it still takes them time to fix it. Ju Li's sabotages of very minor things is a clear example of how long it takes them to fix it. She would break one or two tiny things, and they'd be shut down for like a day or two to fix it. If Toph had crumpled that thing like a beer can, it would've set them back to square one, which means more delays, which means more time for the good guys.

Going after the little things is the best way to go when you want to sabotage heavy machinery, because the people in control of it have to find the needle in the haystack before they can fix it. That's the hard part. Damage, even massive damage, to a machines super-structure is always little more than superficial. What components can't be ironed out can be easily replaced.

They didn't have her smash it because the show isn't The Legend of Toph, even though I would enjoy that show way more.

Well... I applaud your honesty, and in all seriousness, sign me up for a full-on Toph spin-off if they ever make one. But you're right, as I said earlier in the thread, the show is Legend of Korra, and if Korra is ever going to grow beyond it's parent series in any respect, the original cast can't just show up clad in fan-approved plot-armour to solve the problem whenever it would be convenient or cool. It's not their show. In this instance, the writers could have certainly been less blatant about hand-waving that, but however they may have tried to spin it, it is what it is.

 

[happyninja42]

Not necessarily. I'm inclined to throw my lot in with MrHide-Patten here, and guess that the currently rail-mounted, fixed canon is little more than a test platform for something far bigger. As big as that canon is, it doesn't look like all the metal in the domes of Zaofu went into making it.

No, the metal also went into making the rail line the gun is on. But granted, perhaps they're going to reveal it's just a test weapon, however given how Kuvira acts about it, and defends it, I get the impression it actually is The Gun. Also, if this gun isn't The Gun, then having Toph destroy it would be perfectly fine. They could have Kuvira standing in front of the ruins, her husband being like "I'm sorry my love, I've failed you." close up on Kuvira's Evil Face "Don't worry my dear...that was just a test, DEPLOY THE REAL GUN!" and then they open up some panel and reveal the big damn gun. But they didn't. They left the gun intact, implying it needs to be saved so Korra can destroy it later. And come on, given the way they are so blatantly having Kuvira be Mustache Twirling Evil in this show, that's a perfect Evil Overlord moment wasted.

Going after the little things is the best way to go when you want to sabotage heavy machinery, because the people in control of it have to find the needle in the haystack before they can fix it. That's the hard part. Damage, even massive damage, to a machines super-structure is always little more than superficial. What components can't be ironed out can be easily replaced.

If they actually showed them taking forever finding the stuff Ju Li sabotaged, you might have a point. However both cases of sabotage were located immediately, like the exact same scene in the show. They didn't take 3 weeks to find the faulty part, and then quickly replace it, they found it immediately, and then took forever replacing it. So crushing the entire device, and I said like a beer can, not just the exterior shell, but the entire thing flattened like a pancake, (because let's be honest, Toph could totally do that to the gun), would set them back even further.

They didn't have her smash it because the show isn't The Legend of Toph, even though I would enjoy that show way more.

Well... I applaud your honesty, and in all seriousness, sign me up for a full-on Toph spin-off if they ever make one. But you're right, as I said earlier in the thread, the show is Legend of Korra, and if Korra is ever going to grow beyond it's parent series in any respect, the original cast can't just show up clad in fan-approved plot-armour to solve the problem whenever it would be convenient or cool. It's not their show. In this instance, the writers could have certainly been less blatant about hand-waving that, but however they may have tried to spin it, it is what it is.

On this we agree. Having Toph still be alive makes for all kinds of problems on why some things went so bad. They basically had to chalk it up to "Meh, Toph just doesn't give a shit." And that's not her personality. She does give a shit, she did in the original show, and also when she decided to become a cop in Republic City. So now, having her suddenly be like "meh, whatevs, lol, I'mma sit in this bog and just chill, kthxbye" seems very un-Toph. If they had clearly shown her being too old and frail to fight and earthbend at all, then it would be fine, but they decided to have her still be strong enough to easily kick Korra's ass in the swamp, in typical Toph fashion. So if she's strong enough to do that, she's strong enough to smash that gun. And yet they can't have her smash that gun.


However I did like it when Toph told Kuvira she gives metal-benders a bad name. The comment actually looked like it bothered Kuvira somewhat. To have Toph, Toph of all people say that you are being a douche about metalbending, is like having King Arthur show up to you and say you are a shitty Knight of the Crown. xD I'd like to think that comment will actually have an impact on Kuvira, but I doubt it. They need her to still be Mustache Twirling Evil so Korra can be justified in unleashing her unfocused rage on her.

 

[Ashley Blalock]

I think it was good to use the old age excuse because there was the glaring problem of Toph being so powerful that she could pretty much end it by herself and then what is there for Korra to do?

 

[DugMachine]

While I would really love to see Toph just wreck everyones shit I understand the reasoning for the "Oh my back hurts" "Gotta leave it to the kids" as it would just take away the spotlight on Korra and the gang. I'm hoping Bolin goes ham with his lavabending in the final battle.. and I have a small hope that toph will still contribute somehow without taking away all the glory. I JUST WANNA SEE SOME GOD TIER EARTHBENDING PLS

 

[Henkie36]

Suyin vs Kuvira is instantly one of the top fights so far, even if it's less then a minute long. That being said, I liked how this episode felt like the start of the finale of TLA, in a good way. It moved the plot and characters forward, while also moving the pieces into position AND delivering one hell of a good fight scene in the process. I'm literally realizing this as I'm writing this, but this is one of the best written episodes so far.

I've argued since the beginning of Book 4 that this is the best season so far, and I still stand by it. If anything, this episode made me realize that all the more.

 

[NinjaDeathSlap]

I only have a couple particular bones of contention left, and I really need a nap before I get on with assignment work later, so I'll keep this short...

If they actually showed them taking forever finding the stuff Ju Li sabotaged, you might have a point. However both cases of sabotage were located immediately, like the exact same scene in the show. They didn't take 3 weeks to find the faulty part, and then quickly replace it, they found it immediately, and then took forever replacing it.

They didn't actually take forever replacing it. They took forever examining it to make sure there were no more faulty components because things keep going wrong (something they mention when Kuvira shows up) and they can't afford any more mistakes. This is proof of how Jhu Li's sabotage is having a collaborative effect of slowing down the development of the weapon. As for Bataar Jnr. quickly detecting the problems... The man may be a little naive, but he's not stupid. He made a point of learning as much as he could about the technology from Varrick and has been overseeing construction from the get go. Jhu Li may have an edge on him, but it makes a certain amount of sense that he'd get better at detecting and solving her sabotage attempts the more of them she made. So, while the delays may force him to go slower and slower, each one buys Jhu Li a little less time.

So crushing the entire device, and I said like a beer can, not just the exterior shell, but the entire thing flattened like a pancake, (because let's be honest, Toph could totally do that to the gun), would set them back even further.

I'm not sure we have to take it as gospel that she could, actually. There's precedent that even the most powerful benders can grow weaker with age. Zuko's firebending in Book 3 really wasn't up to all that much, after all (though I admit, Bumi and Roku seem like two glaring exceptions to this rule). Putting an out of shape and unfocussed Korra on her ass, and crumpling about a hundred tonnes of metal whilst simultaneously fending off a platoon of Kuvira's soldiers, and maybe even Kuvira herself, are two different ball games.

As I've said before, part of the reason Toph was nigh-unstoppable in the original show, was because only she could metalbend at the time. It was her trump card that nothing else could answer. Decades later, and it seems there are at least hundreds of people who are at least competent at it, and a student will always best the master at some point. In any case, the advantage she had has been severely diluted by her teaching the technique to others.

 

[happyninja42]

They didn't actually take forever replacing it. They took forever examining it to make sure there were no more faulty components because things keep going wrong (something they mention when Kuvira shows up) and they can't afford any more mistakes. This is proof of how Jhu Li's sabotage is having a collaborative effect of slowing down the development of the weapon. As for Bataar Jnr. quickly detecting the problems... The man may be a little naive, but he's not stupid. He made a point of learning as much as he could about the technology from Varrick and has been overseeing construction from the get go. Jhu Li may have an edge on him, but it makes a certain amount of sense that he'd get better at detecting and solving her sabotage attempts the more of them she made. So, while the delays may force him to go slower and slower, each one buys Jhu Li a little less time.

Well if they spent all the time examining the device, your point still doesn't hold up. In fact, messing with small items was apparently less and less effective as you say. So, messing up a tiny component, and also smashing up the entire device would be more effective. I still say that totally wrecking the device would've slowed them down much more than simply replacing a part or two, and then running diagnostics. We seem to disagree on the fact that total destruction = takes time to fix, but whatever.

I'm not sure we have to take it as gospel that she could, actually. There's precedent that even the most powerful benders can grow weaker with age. Zuko's firebending in Book 3 really wasn't up to all that much, after all (though I admit, Bumi and Roku seem like two glaring exceptions to this rule). Putting an out of shape and unfocussed Korra on her ass, and crumpling about a hundred tonnes of metal whilst simultaneously fending off a platoon of Kuvira's soldiers, and maybe even Kuvira herself, are two different ball games.

Actually I can't think of a single old bender that wasn't still a badass. Both shows are full of examples of geriatric people still kicking ass. Not just Bumi, but Uncle Iroh, all the old members of the White Lotus Society, hell even the swordmaster who wasn't a bender were still highly capable warriors. So I'm not buying the idea that Toph couldn't still fight.

As I've said before, part of the reason Toph was nigh-unstoppable in the original show, was because only she could metalbend at the time. It was her trump card that nothing else could answer. Decades later, and it seems there are at least hundreds of people who are at least competent at it, and a student will always best the master at some point. In any case, the advantage she had has been severely diluted by her teaching the technique to others.

I think you and I saw a different show, if you think the only reason Toph was unstoppable was metal bending. She could do things with regular earth bending that were insane, and demonstrated it the entire series. Metal bending was just an extra little quirk, that she honestly didn't use very much. Most of the time, she was a badass because of what she did with regular earthbending.

 

[gandhi the peacemake]

Spoiler tags for a long post.

Spoiler: balladbird

Wow, dude, I like Toph as much as the next guy but that would have been... a terrible thing to do, story-wise. XD Talk about deflating the climax of a conflict, proving that the only reason there's a big bad this season at all is because a little old woman doesn't want to be bothered with it would have made the whole season seem kinda pointless.

Well, would it REALLY have been terrible, or would it have been the payoff everyone from the audience to the creators to the actual characters wanted? Remember, everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) had been hyping up Toph since that episode in Season 3 when she was confirmed to still be alive. The only way for them to effectively pay off all that hype is to have her wipe the floor with the main baddie only to stop short of total victory because her priorities lie elsewhere.

Toph is hardly "a little old woman." Well, she is, but that's like saying the spirit laser is "metal with vegetation in it." It's missing the big picture.

As for the season seeming pointless, well, I'd have to say that it's already kind of pointless, the entire series has been kind of pointless, but that's a different matter entirely.

Spoiler: The Madman

As for why Toph didn't take on Kuvira and all her troops? Because Toph is old, that's why.
...
The entire reason she's even there to begin with was to rescue her daughter after all, not get involved in a war she's repeatedly said she has no interest in getting involved with.

I don't buy the "she's too old and frail" argument. She never showed any signs of deterioration due to age, mostly just apathy. She certainly seems perfectly capable of doing most all the things she did when she was still a kid.

As for saving her daughter without getting involved in the war, that comes across as a fairly lame excuse on the writers' part. Suyin IS a part of the war, and Toph saving her WILL involve herself in the war. In any other story, anyway. In this one, the writers just decided to be lazy about it.

Same with the whole moon spirit thing where super conveniently the moon spirit can be reborn in some princess because it healed her or something and blah blah how awfully convenient.

This isn't so much convenient as it is building the world and mythology. It's also paying homage to or drawing inspiration from or what have you the Asian cultural influences. You might have found it convenient, but I found it particularly eloquent.

Spoiler: NinjaDeathSlap

I do love Toph. She was my favourite character from LoA. However, Korra is it's own damn show with it's own cast of characters, most of whom more than stand up on their own merits. Sure, I'll nit-pick comparisons to the original show like any other fanboy, and the occasional callback is always good. That said, I'll also admit that the absolute worst thing they could have done with Korra is to make it all about the old cast and not give the new blood any room to grow. If they did that, then the overriding impression Korra would leave in the long term would be just "Hey, remember this other show you liked better?"

I for one think it was extremely not smart of the writers to set the show exactly one Avatar cycle away from TLA. It's invited, as you say, "nit-pick comparisons to the original show," and the impression LoK has left so far HAS been mostly just "Hey remember this other show etc. etc.", at least as far as I'm personally concerned. A spiritual sequel (either of the literal sequel variety or the literal spiritual variety) would have provided enough distance for the new cast to shine in their own rights and not have to constantly compare to their predecessors.

Spoiler: Happyninja42

I think you and I saw a different show, if you think the only reason Toph was unstoppable was metal bending. She could do things with regular earth bending that were insane, and demonstrated it the entire series. Metal bending was just an extra little quirk, that she honestly didn't use very much. Most of the time, she was a badass because of what she did with regular earthbending.

To put it another way: "She was a metalbender because she was a great earthbender, not the other way around."

 

[balladbird]

Snip!

Oh, I do know that they were putting a ton of hype into her, and it does feel like they fizzled out on her a bit, though it was likely them trolling their fans, the same way they did with the "real" father of Lin, but timing would have been important. For Toph to deliver on her hype, it would have had to come during the final fight, like what happened with Bumi in the first show, rather than before it, honestly, I just feel like it was a waste to have her do her part this early.

 

[gandhi the peacemake]

Oh, I do know that they were putting a ton of hype into her, and it does feel like they fizzled out on her a bit, though it was likely them trolling their fans, the same way they did with the "real" father of Lin,

I don't know, I think they share just as much fondness for her as their fans do, but they were, as... you, I think, though it may have been someone else... said, trying to let the new characters shine on their own. So they dialed her back, but they still wanted her in there, and in trying to balance things out, they just kind of flubbed it.

As for Lin and Suyin's fathers, they were never very important anyway, the way I see it. They certainly weren't as important to Suyin and Lin's character growth as, say, Katara's mother or Zuko's mother were to them. They were mentioned more to serve Toph/Suyin/Lin's characters than their own. Toph: She's not a family person. Suyin: She became a family person. Lin: Part of her wants to be like her mom, and part of her wants what Suyin has.

 

[The Madman]

I don't buy the "she's too old and frail" argument. She never showed any signs of deterioration due to age, mostly just apathy. She certainly seems perfectly capable of doing most all the things she did when she was still a kid.

You're right, there's no signs whatsoever of her being old and less sprightly than she used to be... aside from Toph outright saying she is and that her back is killing her anyway.

As for the whole fish thing, I guess I must be missing something because I think it's stupid. So the moon is a spirit that's also a fish, whatever, symbolism. Anyway it heals the princess as a baby for some reason. How does it heal her? Don't know. Does it regularly heal people or just her, and if so why? Never explained. Maybe because it sees the future or something and knows it will need to be reborn? No, because only a few episodes earlier Aang has to explain the concept of forests regrowing to a forest spirit so obviously spirit aren't particular omniscient, or bright in some cases for that matter. We never see any other spirit showing signs of foresight or anything particularly mystical in that respect either... but I'm getting caught up here. Anyway, fish saves girl when she was a baby, whatever.

The fish is killed because it's a harmless fish, which really seems like a bit of a flaw is this spirits planning but again whatever. This kills the moon (?) and allows Aang to turn into a giant spirit fish monster in a move that was never foreshadowed, implied, and is pretty much never mentioned or brought up again, presumably having been empowered by the other fish spirit present. Really might have wanted to pull that move before the moon was killed buddy, just a thought. So Godzilla Aang totally doesn't kill anyone as he sinks ships and fights the fire army while it turns out the moon can be brought back because a piece of it is in the princess because it healed her as a child, and wouldn't you know it, she just happens to be standing right there and Iroh conveniently happens to also be there to explain all this having himself learned it from... stuff. Whatever. Again never explained.

Princess sacrifices herself turning into a fish/moon/spirit thing, fire army retreats, and none of this is EVER brought up again save for recap episodes and joking references. You'd think that knowing he can be empowered by the moon to turn into a giant fish monster would be a pretty handy trick, especially now that he knows the moon personally, but again it's never brought up or explained so maybe it was a one-time thing. Whatever. Frankly the entire first season and the fact there's an entire nation with a standing army and everything is forgotten as well.

Spoiler: But it did give us this amazing line though, so that's awesome. No, seriously, I love this scene.

This is all very eloquent, but the thought that maybe Toph feels old and doesn't want to risk her families lives? That's just ridiculous.

..

I don't understand Avatar fans.