Lessons to teach men with absent fathers

[L. Declis]

Also, did I discuss prostitution? Hell, in my posts, I constantly say that women are equal but different. Partners. Depends on them, but provide for them.
.

you know that usually means an affirmation of typical roles/stereotypes and that often doesn't come out in our favour (or mens favour in some cases either)

That's a fair point.

And I hate to slip into anecdote, but I am not the same as my fiancée. For example, I am the better cook and I am very picky about the kitchen equipment, so we let me handle the cooking. I am terrible with money, but she is great with it, so she handles that and I don't give a damn about the idea of the man running the house. We play to our strengths, if you will.

Changes from couple to couple, but as long as everyone is happy and everything is accounted for, I don't care.

I don't think gender roles are inherently bad, either. Don't get me wrong, as with anything, taken to the extreme it is a very bad thing (anything to the extreme is bad), but it does help provide a "rough guideline", if you will, which you can then alter or change to taste. Yes, it has pluses and minuses, but everything in life comes with a downside and you have to decide which ones are worth the downside.

E.g. if you're the male provider, it sucks that you're under the pressure, you can't get it wrong, divorce will screw you, people judge you by your paycheck.

But the upside is your ego and pride get a nice feeding, you know your family is taken care of, your family is taken care of, and you can treat your family nicely and know it is all worth it.

 

[Sleepy Sol]

Also, did I discuss prostitution? Hell, in my posts, I constantly say that women are equal but different. Partners. Depends on them, but provide for them.
.

you know that usually means an affirmation of typical roles/stereotypes and that often doesn't come out in our favour (or mens favour in some cases either)

I wouldn't say exercising a stereotype is harmful so much as asserting that stereotype should be the only way a particular gender should act...or only something that gender should do are.

 

[Erttheking]

Don't take offense to this, but I always hated the concept of "being a man". I don't want to "be a man" I want to be a god damn human being.

We as a society are way too attached to roles that aren't as vital as people like to pretend they are.

 

[cleric of the order]

Started off sexist? This isn't a thread saying "Hey, women are shit, right?" It's a thread that's about men, for men. Just like women can sit and exchange advice nicely, so can men. Not everything is a patriarchal attack on women. Stop watching Moviebob and seeing enemies everywhere.

Also, did I discuss prostitution? Hell, in my posts, I constantly say that women are equal but different. Partners. Depends on them, but provide for them.

Calm down. Also, one problem I have with you lot is that everyone except you should pipe down. Notice the "sexists" are willing to have a chat. You just want everyone who isn't you to shut up. You don't seem to be very nice, and while you've accused me of acting high and mighty, you've already told me to shut up twice.

You sir are a good man.

I am really kinda sick.
I mean, i came in here hoping for a discussion in the matter itself.
This...means a lot to me.
And I'm really surprised .. well not that surprised but certainly saddened by it.
This sort of shit really pisses me off. no fuck that.
This Should be a conversation for men and boys that have lacked a good father figure.
I personally Lack a good father figure through the drugs, the violence and the like.
I mean he tried to be a good father i think. Well no but well.
Shit. Fatherly wisdom is necessary, even from a drug addled violent brute like my father some good information can come.
You learn about you, the person that has sired you, the linage you are a part of you culture on his side.
To this day I really wish I knew more about Jamaica and our relatives in Indian. I wish I knew about my dad at all really, the things other then the violence, the drugs and the sleaze.
But If i can tell anyone anything.
Don't be a Hamlet, there are many father figures you can find in your life.
They might not be as close or intimate but they can be there, there can be kind men.
There can be humanity.
For a long time, I really saw no value in the masculine, in the male at all because of my relationship with my father.
And for that I am really sad.
I have to wonder how many others grow up with baggage like this.
Hating themselves, hating parts of themselves because they were in truth unwanted... I know at least I was.
Well with that saying I guess I could give some of the few good pieces of advice my dad has given me.

1. always check the bathrooms of a restaurant before eating there, if they can't even keep a clean bathroom....
2. If someones angry, don't let their anger rub off on you. if you can resist it it might make their day better.
3. a lewd retelling of they stumble who run fast.
4. addiction is a bad thing, seriously stay out of drugs of any kind, including alchyhal (personal experiences)
5. hopefully how to be a better father.
>be reasonable, but stern. Keep an eye out for bad behavior and stop it. spend some time with your kids, they just like to spend time with you, they fucking love you unconditionally. Don't every fucking make a appointment every time you meet your kids, and you are always responsible for your kids, they are your wards. IF something goes wrong then it's your responsibility and fault

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

Your list, in order.

My mother is the breadwinner in my family, easily makes more than three times my dad. Men are not automatically required to be the providers, nor is there any reason there should be.

Uh no I think I will. Women tend to know what women want in men a lot more than men do. I have seen men try and talk about what women want, and the sheer ignorance of it made me want to gouge my eyes out. Also call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure not having a father doesn't by default lead to confidence issues. I mean Christ, I have a dad and I have massive confidence issues. The presence of a male role model in my family did absolute jack to stop that.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger? As much as I like to joke about it when I write, pain does NOT build character. And I...just what the hell are you trying to get at in this sentence? Born of the best-WHAT!? You know, the majority of the human race didn't fight in wars, so I'm not sure where you're going with this. And you have no way of knowing that after their displays of masculinity that they weren't absolutely awful fathers.

You make an awful lot of assumptions here. I mean, a father is not something a person absolutely positively NEEDS to have in their life.

This is a stereotype about being a man that never makes me fail to make me grind my teeth in rage. Get used to it? No. Just no. I'm not gonna bottle up all my pain just because it's inconvenient for someone else. Complacency towards a problem never, and I mean NEVER solved a thing. "Get used to it" is the kind of thing that if I had told to me when I was suffering with depression in high school, it would've ended with me swinging from the roof of my room. It is the worse advice you can ever give. Period.

That just sounds like a stereotype. Firm but gentle? What if they're just apathetic?

What if they think manly things are stupid? What if they don't want to hang

No offense, but so many of the things that you say men should do are borderline stereotypical, when they're not flat out stereotypical. Your mother will not understand what's wrong with you? My mother happens to understand exactly what is wrong with me thank you very much, and I would very much appreciate it if you retracted such a blatant falsehood. In our genes? Yeah citation needed. I very much prefer my alone time to "guy" time. And I end up talking with my one very close female friend more than most guys my age. And she understands me and I understand her. Men are not from Mars and women are not from Venus. We are all human beings and there is no trick to understanding each other.

I'm honestly offended. I am offended as a man that you think that this is what I should be doing and what all other men should be doing. This advice, whether it be for a person without a father or not, is just horrifically stereotypical, based more on tradition than hard fact.

Let them be who THEY want to be.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Between two men, they'll give each other an answer along nice tits/ass. Men often discuss what they find physically attractive in a woman, I personally am an ass and legs man for example. I find long legs and a nice big butt (but not too big) exceptionally attractive. A lot of women actually don't realize a lot of men like big butts and thick thighs too, which is why the "does this make my butt look big?" question super awkward. I'm thinking "hell yeah girl it looks big and I love it" but I'm saying "Nah, you don't have a big butt." It's fucking hilarious when you think about it. If only we could be more honest with each other.

About not asking him on a "date" specifically is just because it's coming on too strong, I suppose. It's as simple as this, make it known that you want to spend time with him, just don't seem desperate about it. Women should play a little hard to get but if you play too hard to get he may give up/move on to someone else. Some men might find it emasculating, I suppose, as I said in my previous post men are the ones expected to make the first move. But any guy that feels emasculated by a woman with agency probably isn't much of a man anyway.

I don't think it's as universal as all that. However, I will say that I find it odd how many women don't believe me when I say that most men that I've talked to say they actually prefer some 'meat' as opposed to 20lbs underweight supermodels.

Anyway, I'm not so sure that second bit of advice is all that good. This is just a personal thing, but I don't want a woman who plays hard to get. I want one who is willing to say what she wants, when she wants. If that happened to be "I like you, let's go on a date." then that'd be great. But if she isn't overt about it (IE suggesting hanging out as opposed to a 'real' date), then I would assume that she isn't interested in that way and that's fine too. But being up front about things is a really undervalued skill.

 

[chuckman1]

Between two men, they'll give each other an answer along nice tits/ass. Men often discuss what they find physically attractive in a woman, I personally am an ass and legs man for example. I find long legs and a nice big butt (but not too big) exceptionally attractive. A lot of women actually don't realize a lot of men like big butts and thick thighs too, which is why the "does this make my butt look big?" question super awkward. I'm thinking "hell yeah girl it looks big and I love it" but I'm saying "Nah, you don't have a big butt." It's fucking hilarious when you think about it. If only we could be more honest with each other.

About not asking him on a "date" specifically is just because it's coming on too strong, I suppose. It's as simple as this, make it known that you want to spend time with him, just don't seem desperate about it. Women should play a little hard to get but if you play too hard to get he may give up/move on to someone else. Some men might find it emasculating, I suppose, as I said in my previous post men are the ones expected to make the first move. But any guy that feels emasculated by a woman with agency probably isn't much of a man anyway.

I don't think it's as universal as all that. However, I will say that I find it odd how many women don't believe me when I say that most men that I've talked to say they actually prefer some 'meat' as opposed to 20lbs underweight supermodels.

Anyway, I'm not so sure that second bit of advice is all that good. This is just a personal thing, but I don't want a woman who plays hard to get. I want one who is willing to say what she wants, when she wants. If that happened to be "I like you, let's go on a date." then that'd be great. But if she isn't overt about it (IE suggesting hanging out as opposed to a 'real' date), then I would assume that she isn't interested in that way and that's fine too. But being up front about things is a really undervalued skill.

I agree if a girl asks me out on a date even if I hadn't planned on asking her I will have more respect for the fact that she stated her intentions, and probably give her a chance. I would rather a girl ask me out than me ask her out. But it's probably best to know the guy a bit first. If you don't know their name, get that first.

 

[Hagi]

I don't think having a father, or a mother for that matter, is necessary.

I do think it's important for a child to have both strong male and female role models in their direct environment, a role traditionally filled by the father and mother (not nearly always successfully). As I do believe our experiences as a child have a strong influence on our perceptions on gender and related matters (certainly not the only influence though).

There's plenty of opportunity for that role to be filled by grandparents, family friends, teachers etc. though.

 

[wulf3n]

We as a society are way too attached to roles that aren't as vital as people like to pretend they are.

Let them be who THEY want to be.

You don't see the hypocrisy in this?

 

[Thaluikhain]

Personally, I don't see why having a father matters, so long as there is a stable household with time for the kids. If you've got uncles, or two mothers, or one mother that isn't working all the time. I think there is too much concern over traditional families.

I think you'll need government intervention to make this "stable household".

Why? Why does someone who isn't the biological father need government intervention? Does this apply to adoptive fathers?

Is it a government priority to socially disenfranchise men?

You seem to be assuming that the traditional family is vital for men. Worse, that men had no social justification without it.

I've had to tell my boy many times that girls are different and delicate. Behave.

Yeah, I think that's the problem there.

 

[draigan]

I had a "Disney Land Dad" (as my Mum liked to call him) where I would go over to his house every two weeks and do nothing but fun stuff because parenting is hard.

Luckily, my Mum was incredibly capable and handled it like a champ. All the "Dad" stuff (like respecting women, don't hit unless you are forced to defend yourself, sportsmanship, how to wrestle a live grizzly bear; the usual) were handled by her.

Honestly, the only thing that she didn't really handle that would have been VERY nice to have the first time was how to (properly) shave. My poor...poor face

hahahaha

I know what that's like my first time shaving my mum handed me a bar of soap and a razor and then walked out. I learned how not to shave that day

 

[Phasmal]

The thing is, we all think what we know ourselves and what we want better than anyone else but that's almost always a product of our culture. I remember reading an article by a female dating coach once where people all said they'd prefer "authentic italian pasta sauce" but when the authentic, watery kind of sauce and a store shelf pre-jarred sauce were presented to them blindly, every person that answered "authentic" said they preferred the less watery sauce.

I guess the problem I have with this is that a guy who wanted to go out with me a couple of years back internalised it as `women don't know what they want, so if they tell you what they want, they're wrong`.
He decided that what I wanted was for someone to open doors for me, take things out of my hands to carry them for me, someone to quote poetry at me and treat me like the delicate flower I am.

Spoiler: It didn't go well

I guess generalising too much when giving dating advice is a bad idea.

 

[San Martin]

I think people have been too quick to argue with the idea behind this thread. I'm not convinced that the father's traditional 'masculine' role is particularly important or valuable, but some people do, and they should be allowed to have a discussion about it.

I'm as sick as the next guy of conversations about women being hijacked by anti-feminists, but I don't think derailing this thread simply because it's decidedly un-feminist is a fair response.

Basically, if you disagree with the premise of the thread, isn't the polite thing just to stay out of it?

 

[TheSlothOverlord]

We as a society are way too attached to roles that aren't as vital as people like to pretend they are.

Let them be who THEY want to be.

You don't see the hypocrisy in this?

Where's the hypocrisy?

 

[someonehairy-ish]

[quote/] Seriously girls! I can't stress how surprised and impressed guys are by girls that show some agency! Just don't ask him on a "date," ask him to hang out.

why not asking him on a date? is that emasculating? or is asking to hang out freindzoning? why are men so confusssiiiiing!!?[/quote]

It's not very complicated. 'Dating' implies spending time, money and effort that we'd probably enjoy more just chilling with you on a sofa, telling stories and showing each other stupid youtube stuff and playing xbox and then maybe getting a takeaway or something.

Plus with a date there's pressure, and you generally don't know the other person that well so you have to play this stupid guessing game. 'Would she like the cinema or is that lame? Yeah it's kinda lame... okay. What restaurants are any good around here? There's a Lebanese place. Will that come across as something different and nice or just strange?' Etc. If we're going to take you somewhere nice, we'd rather know you well enough to know you'll appreciate it.

E.g. if you're the male provider, it sucks that you're under the pressure, you can't get it wrong, divorce will screw you, people judge you by your paycheck.

But the upside is your ego and pride get a nice feeding, you know your family is taken care of, your family is taken care of, and you can treat your family nicely and know it is all worth it.

I don't know about that. Something like 60% of marriages end in a divorce now, in which case the family courts will almost certainly screw you (the man), and you'll get to watch your ex-partner drive away with your kids, most of your money, and your balls to put on the wall as a trophy. I can't really imagine anything making all of that feel 'worth it'.

I'm as sick as the next guy of conversations about women being hijacked by anti-feminists, but I don't think derailing this thread simply because it's decidedly un-feminist is a fair response.

I'm curious. Why's it un-feminist?

 

[Thaluikhain]

I'm as sick as the next guy of conversations about women being hijacked by anti-feminists, but I don't think derailing this thread simply because it's decidedly un-feminist is a fair response.

I'm curious. Why's it un-feminist?

Well, it is based on the idea that there is something inherently male about being a father, that a woman can't do.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

I'm as sick as the next guy of conversations about women being hijacked by anti-feminists, but I don't think derailing this thread simply because it's decidedly un-feminist is a fair response.

I'm curious. Why's it un-feminist?

Well, it is based on the idea that there is something inherently male about being a father, that a woman can't do.

...

So if the OP had said women generally don't fill that role, rather than don't fit that role, it would be fine?

 

[L. Declis]

Masculinity is a construct, so do whatever the hell you want, but don't be a dick to people.

Yup.

Don't be a bigot, think about other people, don't hold conservative views. They are always narrow minded, hateful, and selfish. #lifehack

I would like to just say; there is a difference now between liberals, conservatives and the Escapist's favourite, the New Progressive.

Also, labelling an entire section of wanting family values, preferring a high standard of morals and ethics in their own manner, and putting community first (typical conservative values) as "hate, narrow minded and selfish" is "hateful, narrow minded and selfish" because they are not what you want.

1. always check the bathrooms of a restaurant before eating there, if they can't even keep a clean bathroom....
2. If someones angry, don't let their anger rub off on you. if you can resist it it might make their day better.
3. a lewd retelling of they stumble who run fast.
4. addiction is a bad thing, seriously stay out of drugs of any kind, including alchyhal (personal experiences)
5. hopefully how to be a better father.
>be reasonable, but stern. Keep an eye out for bad behavior and stop it. spend some time with your kids, they just like to spend time with you, they fucking love you unconditionally. Don't every fucking make a appointment every time you meet your kids, and you are always responsible for your kids, they are your wards. IF something goes wrong then it's your responsibility and fault

Thank fuck, someone can understand what I mean in good faith.

Very much like the toilet rule, shall put that under my belt. And the last one is something I intend to do with my children.

Snip

Your list, in order.

My list of your list, in order.

Listception, if you will.

My mother is the breadwinner in my family, easily makes more than three times my dad. Men are not automatically required to be the providers, nor is there any reason there should be.

I would once again ask you to read my post. You should provide if possible, but depend on each other. Partners, equal. I didn't say you HAVE to, but if you can, you should. Family comes first.

Uh no I think I will. Women tend to know what women want in men a lot more than men do. I have seen men try and talk about what women want, and the sheer ignorance of it made me want to gouge my eyes out. Also call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure not having a father doesn't by default lead to confidence issues. I mean Christ, I have a dad and I have massive confidence issues. The presence of a male role model in my family did absolute jack to stop that.

So you have a father? So you don't know what you're talking about? Check your privilege, as they say.

And I'm not saying that men are better. I'm just saying that women don't know either. Have you seen how women discuss men who act like Hugh Grant? Not kindly, shall we say.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger? As much as I like to joke about it when I write, pain does NOT build character. And I...just what the hell are you trying to get at in this sentence? Born of the best-WHAT!? You know, the majority of the human race didn't fight in wars, so I'm not sure where you're going with this. And you have no way of knowing that after their displays of masculinity that they weren't absolutely awful fathers.

Maybe what I am saying is that you will feel the pain of having no father, and not to let that hurt you and bring you down, but instead rise beyond it.

Remember that you are awesome, and you come from awesome genes. That's the kind of message I'm giving. I don't feel the need to bring everyone down, sometimes I like to make people feel better about themselves rather than attack them like many here on the Escapist.

You make an awful lot of assumptions here. I mean, a father is not something a person absolutely positively NEEDS to have in their life.

Indeed. But it does leave a hole, and it does feel shitty. At least it does for me. I want to help anyone else feeling that pain. Like above, or the O.P. I don't believe that everyone should subscribe to what I think, and this is advice, not 10 Commands from on high.

Also, I make a lot of assumptions? Pots and kettles, takes one to know one, yeah I make assumptions, but I don't want to be writing "Section 1.8b) If you have x, y or z, disregard paragraphs 9-13gh". It's a forum post, not an all inclusive legal bill.

This is a stereotype about being a man that never makes me fail to make me grind my teeth in rage. Get used to it? No. Just no. I'm not gonna bottle up all my pain just because it's inconvenient for someone else. Complacency towards a problem never, and I mean NEVER solved a thing. "Get used to it" is the kind of thing that if I had told to me when I was suffering with depression in high school, it would've ended with me swinging from the roof of my room. It is the worse advice you can ever give. Period.

I believe that this new idea that everyone's feelings are more important and must be shouted at everyone to be equally toxic; people just cannot accept their feelings are their own and it's not everyone else's job to deal with it. The whole "I would have committed suicide" attempt to shame me into not talking, don't care. I had depression too, so did most people. I got over it with a lot of work, and I will be damned if I sink into self-pity again.

Also, the worst advice ever? "Join the Nazis" "Is that bad?" "Well, if you really want to do something bad, you could get used to it."

Godwin's Law, great since 1938.

That just sounds like a stereotype. Firm but gentle? What if they're just apathetic?

What if they think manly things are stupid? What if they don't want to hang

Hang what?

Do whatever you want. Just do it with men. Get some guy friends. Bond. It helps a lot. Again, advice.

No offense, but so many of the things that you say men should do are borderline stereotypical, when they're not flat out stereotypical. Your mother will not understand what's wrong with you? My mother happens to understand exactly what is wrong with me thank you very much, and I would very much appreciate it if you retracted such a blatant falsehood. In our genes? Yeah citation needed. I very much prefer my alone time to "guy" time. And I end up talking with my one very close female friend more than most guys my age. And she understands me and I understand her. Men are not from Mars and women are not from Venus. We are all human beings and there is no trick to understanding each other.

I love the phrase "no offence". Say what you want about Loonyyy, at least he had the guts to flat out tell me he thought I was scum.

Right, we can now only speak in utterly literal terms. No more using emotive language. It may hurt feelings or cause misunderstandings. Honestly, I'm just beginning to bore of trying to talk to you lot with respect when all you do is hurl shit my way. But let's continue.

Yes, we are all humans. No, there is no difference. At all. We are all exactly uniform. Please enjoy your 1984 utopia, collect your non-descript uniform at the door.

I'm honestly offended. I am offended as a man that you think that this is what I should be doing and what all other men should be doing. This advice, whether it be for a person without a father or not, is just horrifically stereotypical, based more on tradition than hard fact.

You're offended? So what?

Get used to it. If you were used to it, you wouldn't be offended. Grow a thicker skin. Je Suis Charlie.

I don't care if you're male or female. But I don't respect people who insult me and then demand I apologise for their hurt feelings.

Let them be who THEY want to be.

Did I say must? Or did I give advice?

I believe you're the person who is telling everyone what they must do, apologise for this, stop saying that, do not speak of this, do not give advice.

 

[gorfias]

Personally, I don't see why having a father matters, so long as there is a stable household with time for the kids. If you've got uncles, or two mothers, or one mother that isn't working all the time. I think there is too much concern over traditional families.

I think you'll need government intervention to make this "stable household".

Why? Why does someone who isn't the biological father need government intervention? Does this apply to adoptive fathers?

Because as a matter of social convention, I don't expect, in any broad sense, for the alternative, to be something typically other than a single mom. One woman, by herself will, in relative terms, need subsidy to keep up with traditional, "stable" homes.

Other arrangements, as you suggest, are possible. I just have no expectation of them. You write you cannot see why having a father matters. Some ideas: they bring money into the house. They have an easier time opening pickle jars and doing other heavy lifting chores. And they teach young males about socialization, and teach daughters about what they should demand from a man.

I have no expectation, that in broad terms, someone else can pick up this slack. That, to me, makes the institution of father important.

I've had to tell my boy many times that girls are different and delicate. Behave.

Yeah, I think that's the problem there.

What? That a father has to break up physical fights between his son and daughter on a regular basis for several of their early years? And, being a good dad, lecture the boy why he must not hit back? Yeah. Sucks. Happens. Expect it if you have kids. Again, a mom can do it, but instructing the boy not to hit the girl sounds more self serving coming from a woman. I expect the difference to result in a decline in gentlemen. Agreed?

 

[Thaluikhain]

So if the OP had said women generally don't fill that role, rather than don't fit that role, it would be fine?

That's still talking about gender roles, though. It's saying that there is something wrong with not having a father, because that role is going unfulfilled.

Because as a matter of social convention, I don't expect, in any broad sense, for the alternative, to be something typically other than a single mom.

Ah, ok, if you are going to equate "lack of father" to "single mother". I'd say it's important not to do this, because there are plenty of alternatives, though, yes, that does seem to be the most common one.

One woman, by herself will, in relative terms, need subsidy to keep up with traditional, "stable" homes.

All else being equal, though, which is hardly a given. Middle class single mothers may well be earning more than low class traditional families.

I expect the difference to result in a decline in gentlemen. Agreed?

You first have to define "gentlemen" and explain why it is important, though.

If the definition is socially different from what women are expected to be (that is, except as a reaction to a society that views them as different), there's a problem there.