Lessons to teach men with absent fathers

[Armadox]

-snip-

I agree with most of this, but not all. A lot of people I know from single parent households have a lot of piss and vinegar in them that they carry with them into young adulthood. Anger and resentment is not something to be embraced. Sure, it helps you in the short run get over the motivation hump, but in the long run, it burns out your friendships and eventually burns you out or turns you into a bitter person.

Hate to sound all new-age hippy, but the world isn't against you and believing that can actually hurt your prospects. I mean, fuck, I failed out of school and dropped off the radar for a while to do some minimum waging, and it was all because I thought the world was against me. I nursed my self-pity and it fueled my anger. It's no way to live life.

I do agree with your whole making life better for your kids though.

*raises an eyebrow, and shrugs* I don't blame you for not reading the part where I mentioned not building a shrine to your anger, it was a long rant. Nothing wrong with having "hippy ideals" either. If the world gives you a light punch, that is nothing to be ashamed of. But everybody needs to come out of the gate swinging, because you don't know what kind of beating you're about to get till you've got it. You need a plan, and the desire and focus to make that plan work out in your favor.

The trick is to know when to hammer your long swords into plow shears. Anger can drive you forward if you focus it into what you want, resentment will hold you back. Always. It's hard to tell when you're ready to stop fighting, but you'll know when that moment is or you won't stop. There is also parts where you need to figure out what friends you have that will hold you up, and which one's will knock you down. Which connections will help you in your future, and how to get them. And, yah even who you'll have to screw over when it comes, because no one gets away with succeeding without it meaning someone else didn't. It's just how things work. It's tough, but if you can make it those first few years, you'll be able to keep afloat usually.

Also, once you do make it, have the sense to help someone else out. I don't like people, but I sure as hell do work for charity when I get the chance, because you never know how close someone else is to making that first step themselves if you just tossed them a bone. Something I think we've lost track of these days...

 

[wulf3n]

In other words it is NOT in the first post you quoted since it was something you assumed.

Inferred not assumed.

Also an inference based on *tone* on the internet? You've got to be kidding me.

I am, and don't call me shirley.

Why not try one based on context. Like, say, that his issue is with society pushing gender roles on people since that is often something people complain about and thete are notable examples of people who would try to spread them to kids in this thread.

Now who's inferring.

But naaah lets base it off 'tone' that'll mostly be an assumption in and of itself. An assumption based on an assumption has *got* to be even better

I agree.

 

[Johnny Impact]

My dad wasn't around much because he was a workaholic. Didn't see him much. If I learned anything from that, it was to take it easy. You only get one life, do you want to spend the best twenty years of it working until you make yourself sick? He has several times said he'd work less if he could do it over.

There were things I didn't get to do as a result of that. For example, I never earned all my Cub Scout badges because many require parental aid (or that you operate power tools unsupervised -- not advisable for nine-year olds!). Most of the other boys got theirs.

I have always felt like.....the most succinct way to say it is I've never felt like a man. I identify as a heterosexual male, but I've always seemed to be a square peg in a round hole. I don't fit the archetypal beer-loving, dirty-joke-sharing, good-with-his-hands, sports-enthusiast image of maleness. I think this is more of a "doesn't identify with society in general" thing than a "gender identity issues" kind of thing. Still, I've always wondered if there was some intangible quality I never had the opportunity to pick up from my father.

The lessons everyone needs to know are to stand on your own two feet, treat others with respect or at least courtesy, don't lie, don't cheat, don't steal. It doesn't matter if they're taught by a father, mother, aunt, adoptive parents, priest, or community leader.

 

[Redryhno]

snip

Ok, I'm incredibly confused, how is this thread sexist? It's about guys and father-figures. There's crap that father-figures give to guys that they in most cases they won't get otherwise, same goes with mother-figures, but the poster comes from a fatherless home and wants to know about where that part of his family came from, again I ask that you calm down and stop the name-calling. The post is about guys, and just because some people have different ideas of good advice than you doesn't make them conservative knee-jerkers.

And what makes you think I was including you in the "same people always showing up" category? I don't think I've ever even seen your username before...

 

[Belaam]

My parents divorced prior to my birth and I spent two months with my dad each summer.

Frankly, I think it is a big part of my feminism. At my mom's place I'd see my mom working a job, cooking, cleaning, paying bills, mowing the lawn, scrubbing the toilets; doing everything. Then I'd go to my dad's and see my dad working a job, cooking, cleaning, paying bills, mowing the lawn, scrubbing the toilets; doing everything. The concept that one of them shouldn't or couldn't do any of those tasks was constantly negated by what I actually saw in from of me.

I know men today who have literally never cleaned up after their kids or made a dinner that wasn't at the grill. Another has never stayed a single night with his kids without his wife being there. And that just seems absurd to me.

But, lacking a male role model most of the time mainly just made me go looking elsewhere for male role models. Literature, film, friend's parents, etc. However, I do generally feel as though I am playing it by ear, but have sort of accepted that. When my wife was pregnant with our first child, I used to say if it was a girl, I was going to make sure I taught her how to use power tools and work with wood and if it was a boy I was going to make sure I taught him how to use a sewing machine and work with fabric. I have both skills and both have served me well and children of any gender should know both.

 

[JarinArenos]

There is always a butch and a feminine no? even then that's an interesting study.

No, no there is not. I'm sure this exists in some places, but it hasn't applied to a single homosexual couple that I've known, and that's not a particularly short list. Please don't assume that gays and lesbians always function as portrayed in their rare and badly stereotypical appearances on TV.

I'm staying out of the rest of this, because a) I haven't studied it, and b) this thread is going places I really don't want to touch.

 

[Inglorious891]

snip

Ok, I'm incredibly confused, how is this thread sexist? It's about guys and father-figures. There's crap that father-figures give to guys that they in most cases they won't get otherwise, same goes with mother-figures, but the poster comes from a fatherless home and wants to know about where that part of his family came from, again I ask that you calm down and stop the name-calling. The post is about guys, and just because some people have different ideas of good advice than you doesn't make them conservative knee-jerkers.

And what makes you think I was including you in the "same people always showing up" category? I don't think I've ever even seen your username before...

Most I could get out of his rage is that it's offensive because people are suggesting young boys need or should have some kind of father figure to provide guidence versus just some person (gender be damned) to give guidence. And this is offensive towards men because... reasons. It's offensive towards women because it implies women can't provide the type of guidence men can provide, which suggests that women may have some kind of differences from men (which we all know isn't acceptable). That's all I could get, anyway.

I have always felt like.....the most succinct way to say it is I've never felt like a man. I identify as a heterosexual male, but I've always seemed to be a square peg in a round hole. I don't fit the archetypal beer-loving, dirty-joke-sharing, good-with-his-hands, sports-enthusiast image of maleness. I think this is more of a "doesn't identify with society in general" thing than a "gender identity issues" kind of thing. Still, I've always wondered if there was some intangible quality I never had the opportunity to pick up from my father.

I get the same feeling. I've never had much of a father figure in my life, which has always made me wonder if I've been missing out on some advice or some positive life experiences that he could have given me. Because of this I've never really felt like much of a "man", mainly because I've never done any of the typical "manly" activites. Doesn't make me feel like less of a person, just like I've... missed out of a lot of things.

 

[Battenberg]

If you feel this is out of line and not constructive toward your topic just say the word and I'll delete this, but there's something about this whole "absent father" thing that I don't quite understand.

I know that there are more children in the world without fathers than without mothers. However, there seems to be an assumption that there's a direct cause-and-effect relationship between not having a father and being more likely to commit crime. My question is, is lacking a father REALLY the deciding factor here? Because for children who lack a father, or any parent at all, there are generally a lot of other things going on. Children of single parents are typically poorer and have fewer opportunities for enrichment or higher education. They're pressured to enter the workforce sooner to help out with finances. They don't get away from home as often and typically don't have a lot of enriching free-time. They don't get to participate in as many extracurricular activities at school. The parent they do have is more likely to have some kind of problem like addiction or depression.

On top of that, the concern is always for boys lacking a father figure. There's never concern for a girl who lacks a father figure. Why is that? If the father figure is somehow the authority which compels children to stay on the straight and narrow, why is this only the case for boys? I understand single dads are much rarer than single mothers, but though I've heard a thousand times how fathers are the force which prevent boys from becoming criminals, I've never heard a correlation drawn between girls and their mothers that has such a profound effect.

I guess what I'm asking is, is the lack of a father figure really what causes boys to become criminals, or is it the other circumstances which surround single parents? Poverty is a well-known and documented predictor of crime, and single parents are often poor. Is there truly a correlation between a lack of a father figure and crime at all socio-economic levels? The reason I ask is that the cynical side of me often sees this "boys need father figures so they don't become criminals" argument trotted out by social conservatives who are trying to hammer home the importance of a nuclear family to discredit nontraditional or single-parent families, and to downplay the effect poverty has on crime.

Is this not a whole other thread topic? I'm not saying it's not worth discussing but this thread already had a topic and this has sidetracked it more than a little.

 

[Buckshaft]

You are not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your fucking khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world.

Hur Hur. Pop culture reference to offset the bitchfest.

Yeah, My dad was abusive/absent. One lesson I can offer? Don't shut yourself off. Talk to people.

 

[chuckman1]

My message to all the people saying I am sexist and women can teach men EVERYTHING.

What does a woman tell her son when:
He gets his first boner
He wants to have sex with someone
He wants dating advice
He has his first homosexual thoughts (possible)
He wants to try "manscaping"
He has just discovered masturbation.
He wants "the sex talk"
He wonders where he can find porn?

Almost half of these were too awkward to ever talk to my mom about

 

[Armadox]

My message to all the people saying I am sexist and women can teach men EVERYTHING.

What does a woman tell her son when:
He gets his first boner
He wants to have sex with someone
He wants dating advice
He has his first homosexual thoughts (possible)
He wants to try "manscaping"
He has just discovered masturbation.
He wants "the sex talk"
He wonders where he can find porn?

Almost half of these were too awkward to ever talk to my mom about

Genuinely, out of pure curiosity, what did peoples dads tell them in these situations?

"I bought you an internet connection, and I taught you how to not get a virus. You're on your own.."

 

[Vault101]

He gets his first boner

that's called an erection...when you're body is ready for sex, although it doesn't nessicaryly mean you want sex its just a reaction, its perfectly normal and nothing to freak out over (ok I'll admit with this one my knowledge of how erections work is limited....but hey we got google)

[quote/]He wants to have sex with someone[/quote]
use a condom...make sure you KNOW how to use one...that reservoir tip is very important, be considerate sex is not like porn, take note of her responses and for gods sake if there is any shadow of a doubt as to consent don't do it!...no drunken party sex

[quote/]He wants dating advice[/quote]
stay away from that PUA stuff

[quote/]He has his first homosexual thoughts (possible)[/quote]
that's perfectly fine, it doesn't nessicaryly mean you're gay...if you ever do feel the need to experiment please be safe

[quote/]He wants to try "manscaping"[/quote]
I wouldn't recommend fully shaving nor do I trust you with a razor...try trimming

[quote/]He has just discovered masturbation.[/quote]
here's some proper lube...don't make a mess and don't over do it

[quote/]He wants "the sex talk"[/quote]
well the reason men and woman have different parts...

[quote/]He wonders where he can find porn?[/quote]
why are you asking me? and no...youll give the computer a virus

[quote/]Almost half of these were too awkward to ever talk to my mom about[/quote]
well if he doesn't want to ask his mother he might ask someone else, though its her responsibility to least tell him important stuff

 

[Thaluikhain]

Almost half of these were too awkward to ever talk to my mom about

For you, and your mother, sure. (Though one wonders if you could ask your dad).

That's not to say for everyone.

 

[manic_depressive13]

My message to all the people saying I am sexist and women can teach men EVERYTHING.

What does a woman tell her son when:
He gets his first boner
He wants to have sex with someone
He wants dating advice
He has his first homosexual thoughts (possible)
He wants to try "manscaping"
He has just discovered masturbation.
He wants "the sex talk"
He wonders where he can find porn?

Almost half of these were too awkward to ever talk to my mom about

I'm sorry you didn't feel comfortable talking to your mum about these, but there's no reason a woman wouldn't be able to help you with all of these issues. The problem lies in how open and knowledgeable your parents happen to be, and in many cases the answer for both the mother and father is "not very". In reality I don't know anyone who would or could discuss most of these things with their parents.

 

[the December King]

This thread has given me the vague and rather sad impression that a lot of people think that men aren't needed to raise kids at all.

In chuckman1's example, there IS a reason that a man would be a far more optimal choice than a mother, the fact that the father has been through all of these issues, personally. It's not a matter of looking it up on google, or rattling off facts in a forum about condoms. It was an experience, and that can be related.

Having said that, if there is no male-father figure present, then a son will have to make do with what he can glean from the mother figure, or possibly a surrogate male role model/ trusted party. It would be the same if a daughter only had a father to talk about menstruation, for example- not ideal, but hopefully sufficient, and further enhanced with an Aunt or another party.

 

[Elijah Newton]

The gold on these forums is worth the dross. And there's a lot of dross. But good stuff jumped out at me even relatively late in this discussion's life - stuff by these folks, condensed for space :

So my advice to anyone who grows up sans any parent? Don't ever be too proud to admit that you need help or to accept it if it is given.

Pretty much everything Piscian said, highlighting common sense stuff that gets overlooked :

G. Even though it seems dumb, at least once every day go out and sit or stand in the sun. Science has proven sunlight will make life better.

H. Eat fruits and vegetables everyday. If you can't try drinking Naked or Odwalla drinks. Your health is the most important and finite thing you have.

I'd boil Amadox's best bits down to this :

the lesson at the end of it all is; Life is going to be hard, and you're job is to make it less hard for someone else.

Oh, and learn to bloody cook.

My two cents is : This is a lot like not hesitating to ask for help, but I'd add : don't hesitate to pick out a surrogate dad. Maybe this isn't something to celebrate but you have the advantage of not being tied to one person. Think about what you're learning. Evaluate whether or not their version of common sense works for you. To paraphrase Ben Franklin from back in the day, you learn from observing anyone : some folks teach you how to behave, other folks teach you how not to behave.

*shrug* Good advice for folks with father figures, too, really.

Personally, my dad gave me an appreciation for common sense. This isn't gendered knowledge, but sometimes its easier to accept when coming from a father (or father figure).

Also, I'd underscore learning how to cook. If you're just desperate for good food you might end up with someone who's not right for you. (I hold there's truth to the aphorism about the road to a man's heart?). Also it's good to know how to spend time making something you like, file it under self-reliance if this seems too fru-fru to accept at face value. Also, psychologically it's healthy to feel confident in your ability to take care of yourself. Also, like building a fire, crafting even something temporary/disposable like food creates a sense of accomplishment. Learn to make what you like. For me it was mac and cheese from scratch. A single friend of mine obsessed about getting baklava just right. Find your thing.

 

[Thaluikhain]

This thread has given me the vague and rather sad impression that a lot of people think that men aren't needed to raise kids at all.

...

Having said that, if there is no male-father figure present, then a son will have to make do with what he can glean from the mother figure, or possibly a surrogate male role model/ trusted party. It would be the same if a daughter only had a father to talk about menstruation, for example- not ideal, but hopefully sufficient, and further enhanced with an Aunt or another party.

Doesn't the latter part contradict the former? If they can be sufficient without them, then they aren't needed.

 

[Redryhno]

This thread has given me the vague and rather sad impression that a lot of people think that men aren't needed to raise kids at all.

...

Having said that, if there is no male-father figure present, then a son will have to make do with what he can glean from the mother figure, or possibly a surrogate male role model/ trusted party. It would be the same if a daughter only had a father to talk about menstruation, for example- not ideal, but hopefully sufficient, and further enhanced with an Aunt or another party.

Doesn't the latter part contradict the former? If they can be sufficient without them, then they aren't needed.

No,not necessarily. Past birth, mothers aren't needed either. The whole point is that having both gives the kid more opportunities and people to rely on for advice as well as experiences that parallel their own they can relate to and build better bonds through.

The latter part of the post holds up as much for a mother figure absent as it does for a father, but since this thread was supposed to be about fathers(-figures) and sons(before it immediately fell into typical Escapist derail for this kind of topic), that's what they're talking about.

 

[the December King]

This thread has given me the vague and rather sad impression that a lot of people think that men aren't needed to raise kids at all.

...

Having said that, if there is no male-father figure present, then a son will have to make do with what he can glean from the mother figure, or possibly a surrogate male role model/ trusted party. It would be the same if a daughter only had a father to talk about menstruation, for example- not ideal, but hopefully sufficient, and further enhanced with an Aunt or another party.

Doesn't the latter part contradict the former? If they can be sufficient without them, then they aren't needed.

Touche- I reckon what I said could be taken that way, darn my wordlessness- I was hoping that someone would help me encourage the notion that it is better for men to participate in raising their kids, and not reinforce a notion that they are unnecessary/useless.

It's a quality of life I'm concerned with, I guess. I loved my father for what he was and what he taught me about being a man, and those were lessons that my mother could not teach me. Their participation in my life made me what I am. And despite what I like to throw around in my humour, I do like myself, and how I turned out.

I still would have most likely 'survived' without my father/father figure, that is true... but I would have missed a great deal. I mean, sons survive without mothers, as well. But I think that 'making do' is not optimal.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Touche- I reckon what I said could be taken that way, darn my wordlessness- I was hoping that someone would help me encourage the notion that it is better for men to participate in raising their kids, and not reinforce a notion that they are unnecessary/useless.

It's a quality of life I'm concerned with, I guess. I loved my father for what he was and what he taught me about being a man, and those were lessons that my mother could not teach me. Their participation in my life made me what I am. And despite what I like to throw around in my humour, I do like myself, and how I turned out.

I still would have most likely 'survived' without my father/father figure, that is true... but I would have missed a great deal. I mean, sons survive without mothers, as well. But I think that 'making do' is not optimal.

Well...I'd hardly say they were useless (barrings individuals that were useless), but on the other hand, praising fatherhood blurs over into condemning non-traditional families.