Let us talk, you and I, about Blizzard

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Drake_Dercon

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Sep 13, 2010
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Refining is good, lack of creativity is not.

What is genuinely needed is for companies similar to Blizzard and similar to others so that all sides can emerge. Only everyone's indie so nobody gives a damn about profit. Because money is killing the games industry.

Once again, I am undecided on the actuality of my sarcasm.
 

Taerdin

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Scout Tactical said:
NEW SquareEnix IPs since 2006:
Gun Loco
MindJack
Front Mission Evolved
Nier
Blur
Gyromancer
Mini Ninjas
The Last Remnant
Infinite Undiscovery
Project Sylpheed
Singularity
Major Minor's Majestic March
Soul Eater
The 3rd Birthday
Lord of Arcana
Space Invaders Extreme
Odin Sphere
Dawn of Mana
Personally, I'm not a fan, but that's a lot of IPs. Innovation, in your words.
Sorry to nit pick, but a couple of those are not new IPs. Front Mission has been around for years, Front Mission 3 is one of my all time favs. The mana series is also quite old.
 

LogicNProportion

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Radoh said:
Inkidu said:
failsauce said:
Inkidu said:
Double Snip
Actually no it wouldn't. Because Blizzard is in control of when they can start weening people off of W.O.W. they have whole divisions of people dedicated to this, and are more than likely noticing the decline in W.O.W. sales. So when Blizzard "The Foremost Authority" on the M.M.O.R.P.G. speaks fans will listen.
But weening people off one MMO for another, untested MMO would be like taking out your own heart and replacing with another heart before you die and hope the new one works as a replacement, and Blizzard didn't get to where they are today with shoddy business tactics.
SWG has proven that it is possible to kill an MMO overnight. Within a week of the combat upgrade, 90% of SWG's players left. No crap.

Blizz can kill WoW on purpose, and show their new MMO is much like WoW. Those crazy WoW fans need their fix, so they'll grudgingly buy it, until they became the fanbase for that game. The new MMO brings in new blood, and Blizz can force the old blood into it as well.

Am I saying this is likely? No.

Is it possible and probably easy to do, however? YES!
 

Snotnarok

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So you're saying they shouldn't listen to the fans who've been begging for these games?
 

LogicNProportion

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Scout Tactical said:
Inkidu said:
NEW SquareEnix IPs since 2006:
Gun Loco
MindJack
Front Mission Evolved
Nier
Blur
Gyromancer
Mini Ninjas
The Last Remnant
Infinite Undiscovery
Project Sylpheed
Singularity
Major Minor's Majestic March
Soul Eater
The 3rd Birthday
Lord of Arcana
Space Invaders Extreme
Odin Sphere
Dawn of Mana
Personally, I'm not a fan, but that's a lot of IPs. Innovation, in your words.
But they change so little from game to game story-wise, aesthetically, etc.

If you reread his post, you will know that he meant new IP's are merely a part of the solution. There must also be passion and creativity in this field. Square Enix does most anything nowadays to print money as is. : /

Re-releasing REGULAR FF5 on the PSN? That's as stagnant as you can get. FF4 has had so many re-releases with updates, etc that is borders on silly...and that's still being lazy.
 

Roland07

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Apr 2, 2010
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OP's post, spoiler tagg'd for size.

Inkidu said:
Blizzard is possibly the worst thing for the video game industry today, and I sincerely wish it would fall under new management or go out of business.

I'm going to wait for the inner and outer raging to die out. So everyone who is actually interested is still here and the hardcore, never-say-die fans have left. Super.

Reason one: They've not produced anything new since 2001, and I'm being generous. By new I mean a new intellectual property (I.P.). Everything they have produced since Diablo has been a sequel expansion MMO-ification of some old property that has done successfully well. Think about it. Starcraft and its expansions, Diablo and its sequel, Warcraft and subsequent installments. Now, I'm not one to go bashing sequels. I like some of them, I hate some of them. That's not the point. The point is Blizzard is trying desperately to stay where it can make the most money for the minimum amount of creativity. I say if you're one of those people who think that games are joining the echelons of mediums that are considered art you should abandon Blizzard.

Some people say, "I wish every company was like Blizzard. They refine their games, releasing only when ready so that it is perfect." Well, champ, I'm going to present to you the other edge of that sword. Refining is all well and good, but honestly if every game was like Blizzard I sincerely doubt we'd have 3-D gaming, I doubt we would have 2.5-D gaming either. Sure Blizzard's business model is pure gold. They rake in what has to be millions on a bad year. However, in innovation, in pushing the envelope, and in general Blizzard might as well be trying to fight off guns with swords. Sure it works for a little while in real life (and works really well in Final Fantasy) but eventually the guy who jumps on this newfangled gun is going to walk away a winner. Just ask Japan, Montezuma, and a whole slew of other people.

Maybe that's an unfair comparison... to the indigenous people. They didn't know this gun was out here history shows that people learned to use them really quickly. Blizzard on the other hand jams its fingers in its ears and says, "We don't need you we just need the Skinner Box!"
If any of you are wondering there is a "Extra Credits" that deals with this issue. Look it up if you're interested. Blizzard's unwillingness to change is also shown in their inability to embrace other platforms. I will cite Mr. MovieBob's "The Big Picture" episode "The P.C. Gamer is Dead--Long Live the P.C. Gamer" as supporting opinion.

I also hear tell of a new M.M.O.R.P.G. that Blizzard is working on. Now, I might be wrong, I often am. No one is perfect, but do you really think their new M.M.O.R.P.G. is going to vary greatly from W.O.W. in anything mechanical. I doubt it. Doing that would be killing the golden goose 101.

Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not advocating the selling of bad or lazily designed games. People need to remember to take pride in doing their jobs. However, not creating anything new in an artistic medium is laziness in and of itself. I'll let you guys in on a little secret. Leonardo da Vinci never finished the "Mona Lisa". Some of you might be aware of this fact, it's there for the people who aren't. Well let's see: A man left an unpolished, unfinished piece of art to the world and to this day people of all ages and origins flock to France to see it. I like my care and polish as much as the next guy, but at some point I'm going to get bored of the same game no matter how carefully planned and flawless it appears to be.

So Blizzard sticks with what's safe, they make oodles of money for it, and they hide behind the guise of polish. Okay, I can see that. However, do you think any other company could go thirteen years without release in new game and still stay in the black? I don't. Alright, so they make a lot of money from W.O.W., and this I have established is basically learned Skinner-esque behavior. If I let this slide, and for the sake of argument I will, then they're creating a billion dollars a year in revenue a year. So lets be fair. Let's take out funding for new projects, overhead, bonuses, and even though it's technically overhead costs, maintenance on servers, oh I'm feeling philanthropic as well. Let's throw in charities. Even if that leaves them with ten million dollars a year couldn't they push that into some kind of branch or independent label, a studio, something? So, yes they are the worse thing for the modern movements in gaming. EA at least has some small studios that occasionally produce something new and good. Why can't Blizzard do the same. They're like the E. Scrooge of the video game world and there's not any Jacob Marley in sight.

It's not a question of whether or not I like Blizzard games, it's not a question of are Blizzard's games good or bad. It's a question of what is Blizzard doing to move the industry forward, and I feel the answer is, nothing.
So I took the liberty of doing a find and replace on your post, and changed Blizzard to Obama, or the Obama administration, and changed the gaming context to the appropriate political terminology. Then I realized, you must be Glenn Beck! Your show script is actually just a mad lib which you recycled for gaming forums. It explains everything, all the absurd claims and nonsensical rants. The proof is in the tab!

The Obama Administration is possibly the worst thing for our country today, and I sincerely wish it would fall under new management or go out of business.

I'm going to wait for the inner and outer raging to die out. So everyone who is actually interested is still here and the hardcore, never-say-die fans have left. Super.

Reason one: They've not produced anything new since 2008, and I'm being generous. By new I mean a new policy (I.P.). Everything they have produced since Obamacare has been a socialization of some old property that has done successfully well. Think about it. Soviet Russia and its expansionism, led to Gorbachev and his successor, Obama Now, I'm not one to go bashing successor's. I like some of them, I hate some of them. That's not the point. The point is The Obama administration is trying desperately to stay where it can make the most money for the minimum amount of work. I say if you're one of those people who love their country, you should abandon Obama.

Some people say, "I wish every company was like Obama. They refine their games, releasing only when ready so that it is perfect." Well, champ, I'm going to present to you the other edge of that sword. Refining is all well and good, but honestly if every game was like Obama I sincerely doubt we'd have a country left, I doubt we would have any morality either. Sure Obama 's business model is pure gold. They rake in what has to be millions on a bad year. However, in innovation, in pushing the envelope, and in general Obama might as well be trying to fight off guns with swords. Sure it works for a little while in real life (and works really well in Final Fantasy) but eventually the guy who jumps on this newfangled gun is going to walk away a winner. Just ask Japan, Montezuma, and a whole slew of other people.

Maybe that's an unfair comparison... to the indigenous people. They didn't know this gun was out here history shows that people learned to use them really quickly. Obama on the other hand jams its fingers in its ears and says, "We don't need you we just need the Skinner Box!"
If any of you are wondering there is a "Founding Father " that deals with this issue. Look it up if you're interested. Obama's unwillingness to change is also shown in their inability to embrace other races. I will cite his birth cerificate as evidence he is racist against whites.

I also hear tell of a new financial policy that Obama is working on. Now, I might be wrong, I often am. No one is perfect, but do you really think their new financial policy is going to vary greatly from the previous administrations in anything mechanical? I doubt it. Doing that would be killing the golden goose 101.

Now don't misunderstand me. I'm not advocating the selling of bad or lazily designed policies. People need to remember to take pride in doing their jobs. However, not changing anything in a financial policy is laziness in and of itself. I'll let you guys in on a little secret. Leonardo da Vinci never finished the "Mona Lisa". Some of you might be aware of this fact, it's there for the people who aren't. Well let's see: A man left an unpolished, unfinished piece of art to the world and to this day people of all ages and origins flock to France to see it. I like my care and polish as much as the next guy, but at some point I'm going to get bored of the thing no matter how carefully planned and flawless it appears to be.

So Obama sticks with what's safe, they make oodles of money for it, for themselves and they hide behind the guise of elitism. Okay, I can see that. However, do you think any other company could go thirteen years without release in new game and still stay in the black? I don't. Alright, so they make a lot of money from taxes., and this I have established is basically learned Skinner-esque behavior. If I let this slide, and for the sake of argument I will, then they're creating a billion dollars a year in revenue a year. So lets be fair. Let's take out funding for new projects, overhead, bonuses, and even though it's technically overhead costs, maintenance on servers, oh I'm feeling philanthropic as well. Let's throw in charities. Even if that leaves them with ten million dollars a year couldn't they push that into to the little guy or, something? So, yes they are the worse thing for the the country. Bush at least has some small studios that occasionally produce something new and good. Why can't Obama do the same? They're like the E. Scrooge of our country and there's not any Jacob Marley in sight.

It's not a question of whether or not I like Obama, it's not a question of are Obama is good or bad. It's a question of what is Obama doing to move the country forward, and I feel the answer is, nothing.
 

Tanfastic

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bob1052 said:
Attacking Blizzard because they only have 3 IPs going at a time is pretty stupid, considering most developers only have 1 flagship IP at a time.
Until recently Blizzard was only living on one IP, Warcraft, they had big hopes and promises for "whats next in our other two!" but they were essentially dead until SC2 came out. Diablo 3 STILL hasn't come out, so at the present they're running 2.

I don't think bashing Blizzard is a good idea though, they are one of the heavy hitters (Most likely the heaviest hitter in the PC gaming world) and until they start losing money I doubt they'll change their story.
 

MajWound

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Tanfastic said:
bob1052 said:
Attacking Blizzard because they only have 3 IPs going at a time is pretty stupid, considering most developers only have 1 flagship IP at a time.
Until recently Blizzard was only living on one IP, Warcraft, they had big hopes and promises for "whats next in our other two!" but they were essentially dead until SC2 came out. Diablo 3 STILL hasn't come out, so at the present they're running 2.

I don't think bashing Blizzard is a good idea though, they are one of the heavy hitters (Most likely the heaviest hitter in the PC gaming world) and until they start losing money I doubt they'll change their story.
Starcraft and Brood Wars were MASSIVE in Korea, and still are, even after SC2.
 

wtfbbqsaucepwn

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Recently, Blizzard has left a bit to be desired with some of their expansions. Cataclysm is a joke and too easy and Starcraft II was just an updated graphics engine of Starcraft; after all, they were dabbling with it for a long time and it should have been better than it was, no excuses. They rarely listen to their players anymore which they did a ton back during the Diablo and Starcraft hey days. They sold out by merging with Activision, who has taken a dump on quality games recently, I don't think that needs to be debated. Sure their games look pretty but if you remember, there were huge differences between Diablo and Diablo II. Of course, IMO there weren't many game play changes between Warcraft and Warcraft II but a bunch of changes from WC II to WC III. I would say the SC line is following the WC line but will we honestly see a SC III in the next 10 years, let alone 5 years.

I view them as a stagnant pond currently; happily sucking away on the cash cow called World of Warcraft. However, being bad for gaming is a hard idea to go with since they established and raised the MMO bar that was initially put in place by Everquest. That hardly counts as being a bad thing. The only bad thing they did that I will never forgive them for is merging with Activision.
 

timeadept

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Inkidu said:
You keep trying to make Blizzard out to be some cowardly, miserly, soulless corporation. But for what it's worth they didn't get where they are now by playing it safe. I may be wrong but i don't think it's much of a stretch to say that they created the RTS. I'm going on the preconception that Warcraft was the first of its kind and if not it certainly generated a lot of previously non-existant excitement for the genera. Blizz also gave us the MMO, and no one has been able to give us a better one yet. When i say that i'm talking straight numbers and unless you want to count face book games as mmos, there are none as popular as WoW and even facebook games don't generate as much money as WoW.

But that's all in the past right? It doesn't matter what they've done it matters what they're doing now. Well lets extend that to encompass recent accomplishments for the sake of argument. Most recently, yes it has been sequels and expansions. Now i want to put it out there that it's impossible to invent a new genera with every game, (Blizzard has had an enormous effect on 2 genera already though) so it makes scene to stick to a few that you're good at. This logic alone doesn't excuse the sequels and expansions though. What does excuse them is that Blizzard continues to innovate within each expansion (i don't want to add sequel because I've never played either starcraft or either diablo).

So i'll speak from my experience with WoW. They've done quite a bit of work on that game, it's very different from when it was released. My experience with the game starts with the release of Burning Crusade, and ends just below the level cap of Cataclysm. I replayed a nice chunk of the 1-60 content on a new toon as well.

I started to write an in-depth analysis of raids and instances, and by the time i got half a paragraph on just the affects of changing the number of players i decided it would be much more efficient to list the significant changes and you can ask if you don't understand why i picked them.

I tried to focus on changes from the original version to the present one.

1. The number of players required for a raid reduced from 40 to 10-25
2. The difficulty of raids is adjustable from normal to hard
3. The length of instances significantly reduced and condensed
4. Instance bosses now usually have a unique ability that must be accounted for, especially in lesser geared groups, there are much fewer Tank & Spank bosses
5. Ability to join random groups for instances across realms without waiting at the summoning stone
6. Quests have become much more varied in type
7. Quests have been centralized into distinct hubs scattered across zones with linear progression from one to the next (there were and are always a few different questing zones to choose from at most levels if you get bored)
8. Leveling speed is constantly being modified to be most appropriate to the current state of the game
9. Battlegrounds were created for PvP
10. PvP zones with (potentially) whole server battles were created (Winter's Grasp and the concept was tested in BC)
11. PvP quests and daily quests were implemented (although to debatable success)
12. PvP arenas were created, along with the rating system
13. Entire zones were re-imagined in order to benefit from past lessons
14. Guild achievements and leveling were implemented (but i'm unsure exactly what their intention was, i have little experience with them)

Well there, 14 reasons off the top of my head, not in any particular order but generally Raids, then Quests, then PvP. WoW is a constantly evolving game, and is helping to push the Genera forward by fine-tuning the unique dynamics that were created with the MMO. Yes, the core game-play is the same, and i got bored with it eventually. But the core game-play cannot be changed without starting from scratch. From what little Blizz has said about the game, I believe that the Titan project will be significantly different from WoW. They see the two games able to Co-exist, neither competing a significant amount with the other. I believe them, Blizzard knows how to make games, and they see potential in the MMO market that many of us don't(is it there?). They're not going to make a second WoW. It would be incredibly stupid. No WoW clone has done as well as the original, and though i have no doubt that Blizzard could make a WoW clone that is also a WoW killer, who would be STUPID enough to do that!?! I mean seriously? Kill your own game? (i want to go on a tangent about the longevity of an MMO being important but i won't.) No, they are aiming to expand the market, they want to put out a new game, and fix some of the flaws WoW has simply by virtue of being WoW (and believe me, they ARE there). They want a game that will appeal to new people, and possibly to customers that have simply gotten tired of WoW.

Blizzard isn't stagnating, not from what i can see. I believe the company still has what it takes to make a great game and they are not simply relying on past success to pull them forward. It may take them a while to get there, but when they do i think that Blizzard will have some great games for us. And frankly i don't care if they take place in existing universes. Gameplay has always been #1 for me, after all, it's what we use to define genera, not story, or subject matter, not even the quality of graphics. Yeah some of thous matter more than others, some more to different people, but you would be a fool to call Warcraft and WoW the same game.

oh, and i see nothing "desperate" about them, they take their sweet sweet time and they know they can.
*edit* well this is embarrassing i've completely forgotten Ever Quest and the fact that it was an MMO before WoW. Call me lazy but please accept my acknowledgement of this fact and ignore some of my invalidated points accordingly, i'm too lazy to go back to fix them now. (it cost a lot of mana to summon that thing...)
 

Verbage

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Also since 2001, they have released 3 games, WC3 WOW and SC2 (and X number of expansions). Also the thoughts of WOW being the same IP and a sequel to WC3 is debateable both whether it is, and also that if it is does it have the same affect within your argument as other sequels such as SC2. Now i dont know economics, but wouldnt the EAsports/COD model of 1 game every year be a much larger money making scheme?

That blizzard doesnt inovate also seems incorrect. SC2's match making, league system, and single player capaign were all massive leaps in the RTS genre. WOW as far as MMO accessability and playability must be considered inovative.

I dont think blizzard are flawless, but i think they stand far above other companies who you should be hating on.
 

Jefferist

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Doesn't seem like trolling to me, so it's definetly not obvious. I hate it how people who disagree with others seem to stamp "Troll" on their forehead to avoid confrontation and dismiss other ideas as foolish.
 

Plurralbles

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you're saying words but I dont' give a fuck.

SCII isn't what we all wanted, but there's still two expansions and possible patching so.. yeah.

ACTIVISION is the worst thing to happent o video games... Becuase it ruined Blizzard. Blizzard is still awesome.
 

dyre

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Regarding Blizzard having only two or three projects:
Don't blame Blizzard; blame gamers. They're the ones who create the insane demand for WoW and Starcraft. A company that purposely ignores the demands of its consumers is both irresponsible and stupid. You do realize that corporations are made to make a profit, not "move the industry forward," right? Moving the industry forward is a result of competition, and it's not really Blizzard's fault that most of the MMORPG competition is such garbage...

Regarding WoW just being a glorified Skinner Box:
I saw that particular Extra Credits episode on the Skinner Box, and I must say it doesn't describe WoW as much as you might think it does. I played WoW for about 4 months, and although they do a pretty standard "kill some bad guys, earn some gear, repeat" stuff, it's also definitely inherently (as opposed to instrumentally) rewarding to winning a PvP Arena (forgot exactly what it's called) match or winning a raid.

Basically, when it comes to RPGs, you either reward people with a good storyline (go Bioware), good gear (Skinner Box), or just make the gameplay fun enough that people want to do it anyway. And while Blizzard does have good gear as a big incentive to complete quests/dungeons, I think it puts a solid effort into making it inherently fun.

To be honest, it seems like most of your post is basically just regurgitating Extra Credits stuff. It's a nice show, but it really tends to oversimplify games/developers that it doesn't like.
 

MetallicaRulez0

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Inkidu said:
Unless you post a disagreement on their forum. Then they ban you.
If you got banned from their forums, then you did something to deserve it. I have never heard of anyone being wrongfully banned from the official WoW forums. You were likely posting something similar to the OP, which is nothing but a biased hate speech. That sort of thing should get you banned, particularly on the very forums of the company you are spouting non-sense about.
 

Azaraxzealot

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Rylot said:
It seems like you're saying Blizz shouldn't make games anymore because they aren't pushing the envelope; isn't that kinda like saying a painter who's making a living off of selling his paintings and is generally well respected in the art community should just stop because he isn't Da Vinci?
and even then, Da Vinci was more of an inventor than a painter.

honestly, yes, blizzard only has 3 core IPs and a development schedule that must be built around glaciers circumnavigating the globe.

but they are REALLY good at what they do, and i wouldn't knock them for it. just like no one EVER knocks Valve for never having made anything other than shooters or games to show off the source engine.

Jefferist said:
Doesn't seem like trolling to me, so it's definetly not obvious. I hate it how people who disagree with others seem to stamp "Troll" on their forehead to avoid confrontation and dismiss other ideas as foolish.
yep. that happens to me all the time. usually that pisses me off so much that i end up on probation :(

yet whenever i report others for saying worse things than me or having lower-content or even MORE meaningless posts they never get in trouble :,(
 

Azaraxzealot

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Plurralbles said:
you're saying words but I dont' give a fuck.

SCII isn't what we all wanted, but there's still two expansions and possible patching so.. yeah.

ACTIVISION is the worst thing to happent o video games... Becuase it ruined Blizzard. Blizzard is still awesome.
hear hear.

DAMN THEM FOR REMOVING LAN JUST TO "COMBAT PIRACY!" :mad:

makes me never want to buy the game... even though the map editor is REALLY FUCKING TEMPTING!

(p.s. i only buy blizzard games to mod them)
 

timeadept

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LogicNProportion said:
Radoh said:
Inkidu said:
failsauce said:
Inkidu said:
Double Snip
Actually no it wouldn't. Because Blizzard is in control of when they can start weening people off of W.O.W. they have whole divisions of people dedicated to this, and are more than likely noticing the decline in W.O.W. sales. So when Blizzard "The Foremost Authority" on the M.M.O.R.P.G. speaks fans will listen.
But weening people off one MMO for another, untested MMO would be like taking out your own heart and replacing with another heart before you die and hope the new one works as a replacement, and Blizzard didn't get to where they are today with shoddy business tactics.
SWG has proven that it is possible to kill an MMO overnight. Within a week of the combat upgrade, 90% of SWG's players left. No crap.

Blizz can kill WoW on purpose, and show their new MMO is much like WoW. Those crazy WoW fans need their fix, so they'll grudgingly buy it, until they became the fanbase for that game. The new MMO brings in new blood, and Blizz can force the old blood into it as well.

Am I saying this is likely? No.

Is it possible and probably easy to do, however? YES!
If Blizz kills WoW intentionally and does what you're suggesting, do you think the players that left them would trust them enough to buy their new game? They might all go to LotRO or something(GW2 should be out by then too...). Even if Blizzard can pull it off subtly i think they would risk a great deal of their current fanbase wandering and trying something new by a different company.

(fun fact, you know that anti-spam thing with the random words? Well i wish i could imbed this screenshot but i just had to type "Lord porkstr")
 

timeadept

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dyre said:
Regarding Blizzard having only two or three projects:
Don't blame Blizzard; blame gamers. They're the ones who create the insane demand for WoW and Starcraft. A company that purposely ignores the demands of its consumers is both irresponsible and stupid. You do realize that corporations are made to make a profit, not "move the industry forward," right? Moving the industry forward is a result of competition, and it's not really Blizzard's fault that most of the MMORPG competition is such garbage...

Regarding WoW just being a glorified Skinner Box:
I saw that particular Extra Credits episode on the Skinner Box, and I must say it doesn't describe WoW as much as you might think it does. I played WoW for about 4 months, and although they do a pretty standard "kill some bad guys, earn some gear, repeat" stuff, it's also definitely inherently (as opposed to instrumentally) rewarding to winning a PvP Arena (forgot exactly what it's called) match or winning a raid.

Basically, when it comes to RPGs, you either reward people with a good storyline (go Bioware), good gear (Skinner Box), or just make the gameplay fun enough that people want to do it anyway. And while Blizzard does have good gear as a big incentive to complete quests/dungeons, I think it puts a solid effort into making it inherently fun.

To be honest, it seems like most of your post is basically just regurgitating Extra Credits stuff. It's a nice show, but it really tends to oversimplify games/developers that it doesn't like.
I have to agree with the skinner box thing, though i didn't include it when i summoned that wall of text back there. Yeah my main reason for playing WoW was that when i got done lvling and building my character, the main thing i wanted to do was use him in PvP. I wanted to test my build and skills against others. Unfortunately though, those are the two things that matter the least when it comes to PvP. They're nothing if you don't have the gear. Trying... so... hard... to resist... going into that rant... *PHEW!*