Dexter is completely different approach to story telling that hasn't been seen for a while. They actually start off slowly then build up. Everything isn't laid out in simple terms where you can see what each character is like. So far the main cast grows with each each episode, they learn and change their personality as the season progress. I know the first episode can be dull but don't expect everything to be laid out for you in a neat package in the first episode. This series is actually very engaging as it not only allows you to develop your own theories about their personality but actually grow with a character as they experience their own growing pains. Give it some more episodes.
Lets talk about Dexter
- Thread starter jim_doki
- Start date
Serial Killers tend to be very charismatic and likable. And people believe them. Dexter does a good job of this. If even the audience sympathizes with him, then imagine what the characters around him think when they DON'T see him cutting people up. People do call him on his issues, particularly his sister, about how he is very closed off from emotions. To anyone except the audience, the guy they hired to analyze blood spatter is a little strange with a morbid sense of humor. Thats really not all that surprising, especially since cops tend to have gallows humor anyways.
Now, his dad nurturing his serial killer instincts is a good twist as I see it. Its basically his way of being a vigilante. His dad feel responsible for Dexter and his condition, and knows the track hes headed for, and does not want this for him. So he has a serial killer son, and wants to clean up the streets...seems like a clever solution. A major point of Dexter is the fact that this becomes such a moral gray area. Because Dexter does, in fact, save lives, by killing people who are most definitely evil. And this gray area gets called into question even more as the series progresses. Arguably, Dexter's dad managed to save his son from a miserable life, stop him from killing innocent people, and save many lives through his killing. And, with his connections in the police department and his training, its no wonder he got the job.
Also, Dexter is not completely a monster...very slowly, he starts to develop empathy, and other human emotions. Its quite a bit of character development actually, and the shows writers are quite talented to have the patients necessary to build his character such a small piece at a time. That makes those things that you can identify in him very satisfying.
I think that the degree to which Dexter is unrealistic is far less then say, A scientist instantly figuring out how to plow through aliens with various guns and a crowbar, or even 4 rural midgets being trusted to bring a ring that could destroy the world into enemy territory. Its a good story thats may not be completely likely, but certainly likely enough to hold together and make a good story. People just like what they like, its hard to say that any particular piece of fiction is actually, "Bad"
Now, his dad nurturing his serial killer instincts is a good twist as I see it. Its basically his way of being a vigilante. His dad feel responsible for Dexter and his condition, and knows the track hes headed for, and does not want this for him. So he has a serial killer son, and wants to clean up the streets...seems like a clever solution. A major point of Dexter is the fact that this becomes such a moral gray area. Because Dexter does, in fact, save lives, by killing people who are most definitely evil. And this gray area gets called into question even more as the series progresses. Arguably, Dexter's dad managed to save his son from a miserable life, stop him from killing innocent people, and save many lives through his killing. And, with his connections in the police department and his training, its no wonder he got the job.
Also, Dexter is not completely a monster...very slowly, he starts to develop empathy, and other human emotions. Its quite a bit of character development actually, and the shows writers are quite talented to have the patients necessary to build his character such a small piece at a time. That makes those things that you can identify in him very satisfying.
I think that the degree to which Dexter is unrealistic is far less then say, A scientist instantly figuring out how to plow through aliens with various guns and a crowbar, or even 4 rural midgets being trusted to bring a ring that could destroy the world into enemy territory. Its a good story thats may not be completely likely, but certainly likely enough to hold together and make a good story. People just like what they like, its hard to say that any particular piece of fiction is actually, "Bad"
If you are talking about the the TV premiere episode of Firefly... then no it didn't have that great of a first episode. It was an hour long and used drab exposition to explain the story (as part of the DVDs a good episode, but not superb for an opening show). If you are talking about the 2 hour premiere episode that was shown at the end of the season (first on the DVDs) then, yes it was a pretty good opening episode.jim_doki said:
Only advice I can give:jim_doki said:
Talk to a cop who has lost a murder case on a technicality. While I usually side on the law as written, or intention thereof, one can easily empathize with the officers' unspoken wishes.
You're mistaking this for a cop show when its really a character drama. The core focus is Dexter's nature, how he came to be this way, and looking forward, how he changes through his interactions with the people around him: his family, co-workers and yes, his victims. You absolutely can't get that from watching just the first hour.
Do yourself a favor and watch a few more. If you still don't like it, then you have a reason to complain. Till then, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Do yourself a favor and watch a few more. If you still don't like it, then you have a reason to complain. Till then, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Look, I'm sick of arguing the point here. I know you people who are devoted to this show think i'm missing something. I think i might be as well. the point i was trying to make is that as the first episode it does nothing that it should. The characters are shown, but not in any detail, making them cardboard cutouts, and I dont care what happens to cardboard cut outs. There was a hook, in that the hero is a killer working for the cops, but it wasn't explored enough to make it sharp. i concede that it was an hour long and that's not a lot of time to do this, but maybe they should have made it a two hour pilot. call me crazy, but in a show like this, with so many interesting characters and potential situations, they could have set up a little more. give me a reason to keep watching. do you understand?
*shrugs*
Yeah, I got what you were saying from the first. The one hour pilot didn't hook you.
But lets be clear here: one hour is not enough to have character development. In movies, which have about two hours of time to play with, you usually get to know a half dozen people and see changes in one or two. To develop the entire cast takes allot more than that.
If you expect serious character development in the first episode, you have unrealistic expectations and I'm wondering why you picked this show out for this criticism as all of them are guilty of that sin.
Yeah, I got what you were saying from the first. The one hour pilot didn't hook you.
But lets be clear here: one hour is not enough to have character development. In movies, which have about two hours of time to play with, you usually get to know a half dozen people and see changes in one or two. To develop the entire cast takes allot more than that.
If you expect serious character development in the first episode, you have unrealistic expectations and I'm wondering why you picked this show out for this criticism as all of them are guilty of that sin.
It's entirely reasonable that it didn't hook you - it's not for everybody. But, for whatever it's worth, the premiere episode you want is the one that the producers avoided. To give away too much too soon would have defeated the narrative structure. It's a character drama, and they specifically draw out the "reveal".
It's different tastes for different folks - the premiere episode you describe would probably have had me bored by the third or fourth episode.
I'm powerfully interested in all the different ways we tell stories - thus my Batman comparison above. What are the similarities, what are the differences, and how do we get to different stories, different structures, and different realizations from the same or similar beginnings. (Dexter is a character drama, Batman is a heroic fantasy, what are the different things we expect and require as an audience? How are these characters similar, and different? Etc.)
I'm at the most boring table in the bar, but I am enjoying myself.
It's different tastes for different folks - the premiere episode you describe would probably have had me bored by the third or fourth episode.
I'm powerfully interested in all the different ways we tell stories - thus my Batman comparison above. What are the similarities, what are the differences, and how do we get to different stories, different structures, and different realizations from the same or similar beginnings. (Dexter is a character drama, Batman is a heroic fantasy, what are the different things we expect and require as an audience? How are these characters similar, and different? Etc.)
I'm at the most boring table in the bar, but I am enjoying myself.
Thing is, each of these shows are very different to Dexter. Most of these (Heroes and Flight Of The Conchordes excluded) are generally shows that revolve around providing you with easily accessible hooks to draw the viewer in based around individual episodes with an overarching storyline. This isn't what Dexter is about- it's a slow burning character study which gains greater intensity as it continues. It doesn't really have one-off episodes either. Each episode in a series is a continued part of that series' storyline.jim_doki said:
Doggabone's right, it's intended to intrigue you but not immediately grab you as being addictive or compulsive viewing from the off. And just because it doesn't conform to your ideas of what makes a pilot good doesn't necessarily make it a bad pilot.
Apologies if this seems a bit confrontational, it isn't intended to be
See, the thing is that it being a character drama wasn't explained in the pilot. The only character we see in any depth whatsoever is Dex himself, and at this point he's not interesting enough to warrant a whole show. The only other characters we meet are given brief (at point one line) attempts to be more than living props. they didn't even tease us with possible growth of the characters.
See i would compare it to LOST. Lost is a character drama at it;s heart. I mean yeah, their stuck on an island and there's some fucked up shit going on, but the most interesting thing in the show is the backstories that let us know why characters are acting the way they are. admittedly its gone out of control, but that's not the point. See, if i was making the pilot, i'd have hinted about Dex's real dad, How his sister reacted to him when he was younger, what happened to his dad to make him flip out.
Essentially i think that they got muddled up in their concept about making him a psycho cop as apposed to just a psycho. I think that while it's a cool concept in theory, it falls down when you realise that instead of focusing on the psycho part, they needed to bring the cop element through stronger, making it seem like a cop show. does that make ANY sense?
See i would compare it to LOST. Lost is a character drama at it;s heart. I mean yeah, their stuck on an island and there's some fucked up shit going on, but the most interesting thing in the show is the backstories that let us know why characters are acting the way they are. admittedly its gone out of control, but that's not the point. See, if i was making the pilot, i'd have hinted about Dex's real dad, How his sister reacted to him when he was younger, what happened to his dad to make him flip out.
Essentially i think that they got muddled up in their concept about making him a psycho cop as apposed to just a psycho. I think that while it's a cool concept in theory, it falls down when you realise that instead of focusing on the psycho part, they needed to bring the cop element through stronger, making it seem like a cop show. does that make ANY sense?
Here's some more food for thought: (if someone already pointed this out, my bad, I'm too lazy to do much but skim) the show is based off a trio of books. So the producers of the show most likely expected the key audience to have read at least one of the books and know the characters and other such things already.
Stopped reading there (well, I skimmed over the rest, but...)jim_doki said:
It's ok to critique a show, and I'm willing to let judging three seasons worth of a tv show by the pilot (though, if you know anything about television pilots they're almost always just the rough sketch of what the actual show turns out to be.)
What I don't think is ok is to sound like an annoying prick about it.
Go watch Twin Peaks, I have a feeling you'd like it more (certainly my favorite show next to Carnivale and the Adventures of Pete and Pete.)
a heartwarming welcome to the escapist as well. had you have read ALL of the review you would probably be of the assumption i was wrong, but at least it would be for the right reasons. you will learn that most of the reviews here are abrasive but well thought out, and make sense. Read the whole review, THEN tell me im a prickPiston Effesca said:
I've read the escapist and perused it's forum for a year or so actually, I don't post much for my own reasons (I'm assuming you pre-judged me by my post-count, which is interesting because it's at the heart of the whole matter.)jim_doki said:
I remarked against your review based on the first two paragraphs because you reviewed a television series based on the pilot episode. I personally go back and forth on wether initial impressions against a work are valid or not (I feel people critiquing BG&E2 as a bad game based on two screenshots, a video, and the fact that Peyj looks "realistic" to be reactionary and negative. However I think Mirror's Edge plot has completely ruined the game, even though I only know the premise.)
Also, I find most reviews on the Escapist to be childish and ignorant, and most threads here to be reactionary and pretentious. But I digress.
I've read your review at your request, and I see I was right to prejudge it, as it represents an ironic reaction to your post. You spend time critiquing the ideas in the show without understanding their application. If you understood the application of those ideas and still think it's crap then I'd agree with you.
Dexter is able to avoid being detected because he (like most serial killers) appears normal and sociable in public, not to mention his father taught him how police investigations work, and he spends a good amount of time hanging out with the police and seeing how they work in regards to murders. The REAL question is "how come no one notices the people being killed by Dexter?" but since it's the pilot I'm willing to shut up and wait to see further episodes where it will (hopefully) be explained.
The line,
is stretching like Luffy fucking Gumby in the bathroom at Stretch Armstrong's coming out party, and it's at this point that any surrogate credibility towards your review fell apart. The term "missed the point" isn't as strong enough to describe it.
The rest about the characters is equally invalid, since this is only one episode, and hardly enough time to get to know any of the characters. Not to mention your reasons as to why the characters are "moronic" are on a one-way ticket to ad-hominem special hell. You support these claims by passively assuming the reader knows why said characters are "moronic."
Lastly, you don't have to connect with a character to enjoy them (although, in a way I find I connect with Dexter in a sympathetic way. He has problems relating to other people. I have problems relating with people, I just don't kill murderers on the side.) Back to my main point, to wrap things up quickly and pretty decisively, see exhibit A [http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=Cloud+Strife&word2=Sephiroth]. (I know it's not the strongest of evidence but, definitely shows something I feel is important.)
P.S. I too have never seen more than the pilot episode of Dexter, and I personally think Death Note or Twin Peaks are much better series in a similar vein. Despite my own problems with Dexter I'm willing to hold off judgement of the entire work until I witness it. I can say though, that for a pilot Dexter is lacking in character development, but that's to be expected as it's only the beginning. If after 5 episodes it's still bad then I'd agree with you.