Let's talk about DotA 2 and its balancing issues.

DustyDrB

Made of ticky tacky
Jan 19, 2010
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Lots of problems you're having here just stem from a lack of understanding of Dota mechanics, which I admit are often not well-explained by the game. Thankfully, the community has a bevy of info out there if you're willing to learn.

For example, tower aggro:


Gold loss on death is a feature that encourages aggression early and often, but it is also something that can be managed by the player because there are actually two types of gold in Dota: Reliable and Unreliable. Gold you gain passively, from creep kills, and from selling items is unreliable. You will lose a percentage of this gold when you die, so good players often play attention to this ammount and spend their unreliable gold ASAP in tough games (if you scroll over your gold, it breaks down what amount of reliable and unreliable gold you have. When you spend gold, unreliable gold is used up first). For heroes who often build a very expensive item as their first major item (Naga, Lone Druid, or Spectre often get a Radiance after their boots, which has a component that costs 3800 gold), dying is a huge setback to them.

As for the bit on Riki and Sniper's ultimates, I have to be blunt: Get good. Those heroes are among the worst carries at even average MMR. Riki kind of sucks at farming (his steroid doesn't even work on neutrals, since they will be facing him while he's killing them), so he often relies on snowballing off of hero kills. He's not like an Anti-Mage or a Naga, who get way more out of a few minutes of farming than most other heroes in the game and suddenly become powerful without having even fought you. Riki relies on you being unprepared. Sentries placed in crucial locations will spot him and maybe even allow a counter-gank on him. A Force Staff or Ghost Scepter (which you should be getting ASAP if you're squishy or a support) will severely hamper his ability to solo kill you, and those aren't very expensive items (~2K and 1600, respectivley). Sniper's ultimate is dodgeable, interruptible, and relies on you being somewhat out of position for him to get a kill on you with it. If you're against a Sniper and you're at low HP at the end of a teamfight, get to fog ASAP or just teleport out.

I'll admit Dota does a bad job of teaching deeper mechanics, but the info is out there. And honestly, if you don't know these things, then the people you're facing likely won't either. You don't have to have an encyclopedic knowledge of the game when you're new. Learn as you go. You'll eventually get to the point where you understand things like damage types, situational item builds, when to ward where, and the specifics of hero matchups. And if something really bugs you, look it up and try to see what you can do to get better results.
 

The Wykydtron

"Emotions are very important!"
Sep 23, 2010
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Vigormortis said:
Seems most of these "balance changes" are simply ideas coming from both a lack of knowledge and experience with Dota 2, and an attempt to "dumb-down" the game to turn it into LoL.

Every single one of your suggestions OP, save one (maybe), would fundamentally alter and ruin the core of Dota 2.

To put it simply: they're awful ideas.

No offense.

The Wykydtron said:
Bloodseeker can fuck off.
Sorry, but you lost at me this. If one of your primary examples of "imbalanced, overpowered" heroes is Bloodseeker....

Yeah, I just...don't even know what to say to that. Really.

Not even strictly about character balance either, the game engine is shockingly bad. Yes I know why, no I don't take that as an excuse for playing on what feels like 400ms all the time.
I'm sorry, but what? How is the engine even remotely bad? Especially when compared to the utterly shit-tacular excuse for an engine games like League use.

If your ping is bad, that's on you. But if your "400ms" jab is in reference to the turn speeds in Dota, then you're being ridiculous.

I could go into why, but this point's been argued ad nauseam, even around here.

Also I don't like having to pray to my hastily set up shrine to RNJesus before every single game I play as or against someone like Phantom Assassin, Spirit Breaker or Ogre Magi. How is there a pro scene for this game again? One or two lucky stuns or crits can turn the advantage from one team to another and there's nothing to say but luck.
I believe DOPO has already covered this, but I'll just add that most of the professional, e-sports teams don't rely on those heroes. Rarely, even, do they get picked. In fact, most of the pro teams avoid the mechanics reliant on "chance" all together.

Lyri said:
You think Riki's stealth is bad, have you even LOOKED at Slark's?
This is what baffles me.

How can anyone complain about Riki, and his invis, when Slark exists? I mean, seriously...

He basically has a repeatable five seconds of BKB and Shadow Blade.
Oh well if the pro scene isn't using many RNG characters then that solves absolutely every problem I had with it now doesn't it? How could I have been so blind? >.>

Also unless there's some hidden pattern i'm missing, the type of runes to spawn are close to random as well, I assume the same rune doesn't spawn twice in a row at least. About to kill someone? Nope he runs past a Haste rune and fucks right off. RNJesus strikes again. -_-'

Honestly, this is medium level play at best here, what in the world are you doing comparing us to the pro teams? I'm bloody sick of it.

I'm not even going to argue with you about the engine if you say League is the one with the bad engine. I'll give you a better example, it feels like i'm playing through treacle even though i'm always on good ping. Rule of my internet is i'm either perfectly lag free or disconnected completely. There is never an inbetween.

I suppose some of it is the turn speed but it can't just be that. Also the pathfinding can be pretty bad on occasion and some (not all) of those places on the map where you lose sight of people due to ramps or whatever are just a bit silly. "Oh shit, she's gone up three steps now I can't fire an arrow at her because of reasons" Oh and the minimap is in a really bizarre place. Why not tuck it into the side like any sensible HUD design should be? No, leave it haphazardly jutting out so you can misclick the tip of it and send yourself in the direction of the enemy base. Just add an option to move it from left to right, it can't be hard. The DOTA engine is a sea of nitpicks and annoyances that work together to make the game experience as unintuitive as possible.

The danger of river is cool though, where everyone can see you and you can see fuck all, never say I don't give credit where it's due.

As much as Bloodseeker can fuck off, my real example of a lolololol OP nerf character would just be Cancer Lancer's head on a fucking stick.
 

Vigormortis

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Nov 21, 2007
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The Wykydtron said:
Oh well if the pro scene isn't using many RNG characters then that solves absolutely every problem I had with it now doesn't it? How could I have been so blind? >.>
You make a point of complaining about abilities built around an RNG, and then question how the game has a pro scene because of it. I then tell you most pro teams avoid those abilities/mechanics, thus demonstrating why they either don't play a role in pro play or that pro teams work around them, and you come back with that facetious snark?

Really?

Also unless there's some hidden pattern i'm missing, the type of runes to spawn are close to random as well, I assume the same rune doesn't spawn twice in a row at least. About to kill someone? Nope he runs past a Haste rune and fucks right off. RNJesus strikes again. -_-'
Random Rune spawns are an issue? Seriously?

Seriously?

Honestly, this is medium level play at best here, what in the world are you doing comparing us to the pro teams? I'm bloody sick of it.
So now we're putting words in my mouth? And more than that, implying I've been doing so so often that you're "sick of it"?

I never once compared you to the "pro teams". Given your apparent lack of knowledge on why certain mechanics are even in the game I wouldn't even assume you were on one.

No offense.

I was addressing your question of "how does this game have a pro scene".

I'm not even going to argue with you about the engine if you say League is the one with the bad engine.
Yet you expect me to listen to your assertions that the Dota 2 version of Source is "shitty".

Wow.

I'll give you a better example, it feels like i'm playing through treacle even though i'm always on good ping. Rule of my internet is i'm either perfectly lag free or disconnected completely. There is never an inbetween.

I suppose some of it is the turn speed but it can't just be that.
"It can't just be that"? So you're not even sure what your complaint is, just that you want to complain?

Also the pathfinding can be pretty bad on occasion
If I had a nickel for each time this happened while playing LoL...

and some (not all) of those places on the map where you lose sight of people due to ramps or whatever are just a bit silly. "Oh shit, she's gone up three steps now I can't fire an arrow at her because of reasons"
As opposed to the bundles of tall grass in LoL?

Well, at least we're not using double standards or anything...

Oh and the minimap is in a really bizarre place. Why not tuck it into the side like any sensible HUD design should be? No, leave it haphazardly jutting out so you can misclick the tip of it and send yourself in the direction of the enemy base. Just add an option to move it from left to right, it can't be hard.
You mean this option?



The DOTA engine is a sea of nitpicks and annoyances that work together to make the game experience as unintuitive as possible.
Mmm...no. From the sounds of it you have a sea of nitpicks that render you incapable of enjoying the game. Millions of other players have no such nitpicks or issues.

The danger of river is cool though, where everyone can see you and you can see fuck all, never say I don't give credit where it's due.
. . . . .

I just don't even know what to say, really.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Look, I get it. You don't like Dota 2. And that's fine! You're welcome to like or dislike whatever the hell you want. Doesn't matter to me one way or t'other.

But don't go around making wild assertions about something that you clearly don't fully understand and not expect to get called on them.
 

The Wykydtron

"Emotions are very important!"
Sep 23, 2010
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Vigormortis said:
The Wykydtron said:
Oh well if the pro scene isn't using many RNG characters then that solves absolutely every problem I had with it now doesn't it? How could I have been so blind? >.>
You make a point of complaining about abilities built around an RNG, and then question how the game has a pro scene because of it. I then tell you most pro teams avoid those abilities/mechanics, thus demonstrating why they either don't play a role in pro play or that pro teams work around them, and you come back with that facetious snark?

Really?

Also unless there's some hidden pattern i'm missing, the type of runes to spawn are close to random as well, I assume the same rune doesn't spawn twice in a row at least. About to kill someone? Nope he runs past a Haste rune and fucks right off. RNJesus strikes again. -_-'
Random Rune spawns are an issue? Seriously?

Seriously?

Honestly, this is medium level play at best here, what in the world are you doing comparing us to the pro teams? I'm bloody sick of it.
So now we're putting words in my mouth? And more than that, implying I've been doing so so often that you're "sick of it"?

I never once compared you to the "pro teams". Given your apparent lack of knowledge on why certain mechanics are even in the game I wouldn't even assume you were on one.

No offense.

I was addressing your question of "how does this game have a pro scene".

I'm not even going to argue with you about the engine if you say League is the one with the bad engine.
Yet you expect me to listen to your assertions that the Dota 2 version of Source is "shitty".

Wow.

I'll give you a better example, it feels like i'm playing through treacle even though i'm always on good ping. Rule of my internet is i'm either perfectly lag free or disconnected completely. There is never an inbetween.

I suppose some of it is the turn speed but it can't just be that.
"It can't just be that"? So you're not even sure what your complaint is, just that you want to complain?

Also the pathfinding can be pretty bad on occasion
If I had a nickel for each time this happened while playing LoL...

and some (not all) of those places on the map where you lose sight of people due to ramps or whatever are just a bit silly. "Oh shit, she's gone up three steps now I can't fire an arrow at her because of reasons"
As opposed to the bundles of tall grass in LoL?

Well, at least we're not using double standards or anything...

Oh and the minimap is in a really bizarre place. Why not tuck it into the side like any sensible HUD design should be? No, leave it haphazardly jutting out so you can misclick the tip of it and send yourself in the direction of the enemy base. Just add an option to move it from left to right, it can't be hard.
You mean this option?

[sub][sub]I never made this mistake shhhhhhhhhhh[/sub][/sub]

The DOTA engine is a sea of nitpicks and annoyances that work together to make the game experience as unintuitive as possible.
Mmm...no. From the sounds of it you have a sea of nitpicks that render you incapable of enjoying the game. Millions of other players have no such nitpicks or issues.

The danger of river is cool though, where everyone can see you and you can see fuck all, never say I don't give credit where it's due.
. . . . .

I just don't even know what to say, really.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Look, I get it. You don't like Dota 2. And that's fine! You're welcome to like or dislike whatever the hell you want. Doesn't matter to me one way or t'other.

But don't go around making wild assertions about something that you clearly don't fully understand and not expect to get called on them.
Hold on, this is the internet. I should have prefaced everything with "I think" or "in my opinion" because everything I wrote was my opinion not absolute fact. Sad that that needs to be explicitly said really considering this y'know a forum about opinions. I'm not targeting you individually it's a massive problem that's been around for ages. So yes, they are *my* nitpicks, sorry if that wasn't clear. I never try to be insulting or facetious and stuff, people just take things the wrong way. Usually the Americans because they have no sense of humour

Also I wasn't implying just you were doing whatever it was with pro teams why would I, I just hear "well the pro teams do this so don't worry" about everything like it really even matters when the skill gap is so huge. It just annoys me.


I do like DOTA by the way, I just wish it liked me back. Level 24 pro here, git gud screb.

"It can't just be that"? So you're not even sure what your complaint is, just that you want to complain?"

Haha, pretty much perfect. Welcome to England, enjoy your stay. The food is shite, the government is a shambles and the weather is piss poor. XD

I never said the tall grass was better though don't you double standards me. Years later this gloriously retarded tactic still holds up.

#MLG
 

Vigormortis

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Nov 21, 2007
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The Wykydtron said:
Hold on, this is the internet. I should have prefaced everything with "I think" or "in my opinion" because everything I wrote was my opinion not absolute fact. Sad that that needs to be explicitly said really considering this y'know a forum about opinions. I'm not targeting you individually it's a massive problem that's been around for ages. So yes, they are *my* nitpicks, sorry if that wasn't clear. I never try to be insulting or facetious and stuff, people just take things the wrong way. Usually the Americans because they have no sense of humour
Well, I am an American. And, I do have a sense of humor. I just, you know, prefer to retort to snark with further snark.

Only seems fair. ;)

Also I wasn't implying just you were doing whatever it was with pro teams why would I, I just hear "well the pro teams do this so don't worry" about everything like it really even matters when the skill gap is so huge. It just annoys me.
Which is a fair point, but it wasn't what I was saying. I was only responding a very specific question. Wasn't referencing Dota 2 as a whole.

Level 24 pro here, git gud screb.
Psh. Shows what you know. The proper, contemporary term is "scrab".

Lern 2 demean.

Haha, pretty much perfect. Welcome to England, enjoy your stay. The food is shite, the government is a shambles and the weather is piss poor. XD
Been to. Am friends with several from. Guess I should have seen that bit from the last post comin'.

Guess I'm off my game.

I'm such a "scrab".

I never said the tall grass was better though don't you double standards me. Years later this gloriously retarded tactic still holds up.

#MLG
The wording of your post made it seem like your issue was with the mechanic existing in Dota 2, not LoL. If you've issue with it in both instances, then that's different.

For me, I don't mind the reduction of visual information due to line-of-sight rules. It makes positional awareness, planning, and team communication vastly more crucial to the game.

I do like DOTA by the way, I just wish it liked me back.
Perhaps it does.

Perhaps it's an unspoken, rough love? Maybe it's a love scorned?

Have you tried buying Dota 2 some flowers? Taken it for a night on the town?

Have you tried telling it it's pretty?
 

The Wykydtron

"Emotions are very important!"
Sep 23, 2010
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Vigormortis said:
The Wykydtron said:
I do like DOTA by the way, I just wish it liked me back.
Perhaps it does.

Perhaps it's an unspoken, rough love? Maybe it's a love scorned?

Have you tried buying Dota 2 some flowers? Taken it for a night on the town?

Have you tried telling it it's pretty?
I did take her out to town the once, she insisted on buying loads of really cheap hats, hoods, cowls and capes for some reason, some of them didn't even match. Things got a bit awkward between us when I mentioned that I really like Antimage though, I think I touched a nerve.


Hates magic but is clearly a magician. How has he never acknowledged this in the slightest? I guess he would just selfdestruct if he (shock twist) admitted he was actually a mage himself.
 

Vigormortis

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Nov 21, 2007
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The Wykydtron said:
I did take her out to town the once, she insisted on buying loads of really cheap hats, hoods, cowls and capes for some reason, some of them didn't even match. Things got a bit awkward between us when I mentioned that I really like Antimage though, I think I touched a nerve.
To be fair, that's not exactly the kind of thing you admit to on the first date. So I can kind of understand her animosity.

Hates magic but is clearly a magician. How has he never acknowledged this in the slightest? I guess he would just selfdestruct if he (shock twist) admitted he was actually a mage himself.
I suppose he lives by the mantra, "Fight fire with fire." So maybe it's not a complete contradiction? Could be he's a self-hating mage, too. He hates himself so much he takes it out on others.

Or maybe he's just a hypocritical douche.

Based on his haircut alone, I'mma go with the latter.
 

IBlackKiteI

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Mar 12, 2010
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I think its more to do with how the game just works than any imbalance. In Dota mistakes made (or shit, just being fucked over by a poor team comp, lack of coordination, just being unlucky etc.) will haunt you throughout the match at least a fair bit. Practically any character will begin to snowball frighteningly fast with just a couple early kills or farm gain though it is definitely more prominent with some characters than others, which is again just how the game works.

I've been playing a fair bit of both it and LoL lately and while I find Dota a lot more complex and overall interesting than League, in League you'll more frequently get actual matches with both sides potentially making big comebacks rather than just ridiculous one sided slaughter-fests. In LoL when your getting your ass kicked unless the other side has an insane advantage overall you can usually pinpoint whatever is screwing your team over the most and have a decent shot at neutralizing it. The utter steam rolls more common (at least in my experience) to Dota suck to be involved in, even if your winning they're often so ridiculous the match isn't even fun anymore.
 

DustyDrB

Made of ticky tacky
Jan 19, 2010
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The Wykydtron said:
Hates magic but is clearly a magician. How has he never acknowledged this in the slightest? I guess he would just selfdestruct if he (shock twist) admitted he was actually a mage himself.
I'm pretty sure he'd use this mantra.. [http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/dota2.gamepedia.com/7/70/Anti_respawn_07.mp3]