Lets talk about Iron Fist! (On Netflix)

[Dazzle Novak]

What's acceptable about a show centered around Magical Kung Fu Man with fight choreography worse than what you find on Daredevil or Into the Badlands and isn't even consistently topping Arrow or Agents of Shields?

I just watched the first episode of Jessica Jones and, Jesus, was it night-and-day. Like, I have a feeling I'd be less impressed by mere competency had I not just watched Iron Fist and might be knocking it for its generic neo-noir veneer and lead characterization seemingly indebted to Veronica Mars, but at least by the end of the episode I had a grasp of what the stakes were, who the antagonist and/or what the primary obstacle was, and why it mattered to Jessica. At least the camerawork and music was occasionally used to convey emotion (Holy shit!) At least characters behaved and reacted in a discernible and goal-oriented fashion.

Granted, I hear JJ takes a nosedive like all Netflix Marvel shows, but Iron Fist is starting off pretty middling and aimless.

Pointless aside:

Spoiler

And our "hero" being an entitled rich kid aside, by first episode's end he has 1) assaulted security guards for doing their jobs, 2) trespassed, 3) stalked and harassed a woman, 4) broken into her house, 5) stolen a car, 6) held car's owner hostage at gunpoint for having the temerity to respond to crime #5 negatively, 7) gotten swept up in a PTSD rage while driving car and almost killing both himself and hostage, 8) stalked and harassed a second woman. We're supposed to be rooting for this maniac?

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

5 episodes in and it's really not as bad as the reviews would have you believe (at least not so far).

Finn Jones is bad at kung fu, but they tend to cover that up decently well with cuts and camera angles. The worst fights are the ones where the camera is on him too long and you can see how slow he's moving and how slow everyone else is moving to accommodate him. Honestly, if they'd just sped up some of the fights in post by about 1.2x or 1.3x the fights would look a lot better. Still more interesting than any of the action in Luke Cage.

Other than that, at least it's a hell of a lot better than Arrow season 4, which was so bad it made me stop watching the show, and the action still looks better than Legion, which has action sequences that make Freddie Wongs's youtube videos look professional by comparison.

I'll reserve my opinions on the story until I've actually finished it. So far I'm unimpressed by the villains, but we'll see how things progress.

 

[Saelune]

What's acceptable about a show centered around Magical Kung Fu Man with fight choreography worse than what you find on Daredevil or Into the Badlands and isn't even consistently topping Arrow or Agents of Shields?

I just watched the first episode of Jessica Jones and, Jesus, was it night-and-day. Like, I have a feeling I'd be less impressed by mere competency had I not just watched Iron Fist and might be knocking it for its generic neo-noir veneer and lead characterization seemingly indebted to Veronica Mars, but at least by the end of the episode I had a grasp of what the stakes were, who the antagonist and/or what the primary obstacle was, and why it mattered to Jessica. At least the camerawork and music was occasionally used to convey emotion (Holy shit!) At least characters behaved and reacted in a discernible and goal-oriented fashion.

Granted, I hear JJ takes a nosedive like all Netflix Marvel shows, but Iron Fist is starting off pretty middling and aimless.

Pointless aside:

Spoiler

And our "hero" being an entitled rich kid aside, by first episode's end he has 1) assaulted security guards for doing their jobs, 2) trespassed, 3) stalked and harassed a woman, 4) broken into her house, 5) stolen a car, 6) held car's owner hostage at gunpoint for having the temerity to respond to crime #5 negatively, 7) gotten swept up in a PTSD rage while driving car and almost killing both himself and hostage, 8) stalked and harassed a second woman. We're supposed to be rooting for this maniac?

I think the show only got better as it went on, where as Jessica Jones and season 2 of Daredevil did the opposite.

Though honestly, remove Iron Fist, and I think you get a really thrilling story of a corporate family dynasty ripping itself apart. It even gets rather...dark, for a bit.

Plus man, did my opinion of most characters change constantly, and even at the end I am unsure of how I feel about each character, and I mean that in a good way.

 

[Saelune]

My favorite fight is when he fights a Drunken Master. I guess people wanting Iron Fist to be just like a Bruce Lee movie would be ultimately shafted, but I liked most of the fighting, but the fight against the Drunken Master was probably the best.

 

[Derekloffin]

3 episodes in right now, and the first impression... isn't good, but that's mostly because it played two cards in story telling that really irk me personally. The 1st episode was the whole 'hey, it's my, Danny... honest!' episode which was just chalked full of awkward moment after awkward moment. This is a type of storytelling that is very common, but also makes me personally grind my teeth. Let's just call it my trigger if you want. I don't blame the show for this as many really good shows use this type of trope and I can't stand it in them either. So for me that was a bad start. 2nd episode is the whole 'oh, now we're in a mental institute' which continues the whole awkward trend of eps 1 although a bit better, but now playing a common trope I just don't like. Thankfully it was just the 1 episode.

Ugh... however, even with that, there was bits I liked in both episodes. So, I'm on episode 3 now, and now that we're largely past the plots that I hate, I'm more into it now. Hopefully things continue like this. So, albeit a very early thing, I would place this at the bottom of the 4 series so far, but still worth a watch, and I'm hopeful thing will continue to pick up.

 

[hermes]

I am 4 episodes in, and I can understand the critics reaction. For context, most critic only had access to the first 3 episodes, and based on that, the series was not very well received. It is "Iron Fist" so, even someone with very tenuous knowledge of the character would go for it waiting over the top martial arts scenes and "oriental exotic" mysticism. So far, the series delivers in none of that. Instead, it spend a very large amount of its time with Danny going all "its really me, I really am a missing millionaire" and no one believing him, sometimes going to caricaturesque levels of stupidity and disbelief (specially in a world were there are confirmed sights of mythological gods, mind controlling murderers and guys in power armor). I am not a fan of the phrase "first world problems", but this is all the dramatic tension the series goes for in the first few episodes.

It doesn't really help that the stunts and edition are not very good. As I said, good fighting stunts should be paramount in a series about Iron Fist; yet Jones is very bad at action stunts, and they haphazardly hide it with fast cutting and convoluted camera angles. There is rarely a kick shown in its entirely, and no elegance to his moves. I know they are going with the street brawl style ever since Daredevil, but it makes a lot more sense in Daredevil (the son of a boxer) or Luke Cage (a bouncer whose best fighting experience comes from prison fighting), than in Iron Fist (a guy trained for years by warrior monks in all known martial arts). There should be an ballet-like elegance and ease with his moves, instead we get a guy that spend 5 minutes trying to knock down a single guy with a brass knuckle. Henwick does a little better, but mostly because the bar was set really low, and yet she also falls pray of the "lets cut the shots rapidly so no one notices the errors in continuity" practice, which is a lot more economical and easier than "lets try to shoot this sequence again, from the beginning, and make it right this time".

By chapters 4 and 5, the series improves by giving us a proper villain (instead of caricature stupid bully) and getting some distance from the "will he be able to return to his life of luxury and regain control of his billions of dollars" subplot that is more fitting for a Ricky Rich comic than a Netflix series, so I am hoping it continues to improve... But I can totally understand people that after the first 2 or 3 episodes were disillusioned of what is likely to be the weakest of the series.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

Well is it better than Luke Cage? I stopped watching that about halfway through because there was no tension or a sense of things going somewhere at all. The villain was a completely ineffectual fuck-up, Cage was just invincible and no one seemed to be able to threaten him with anything, and by the episode on which I stopped watching it seemed like everything was solved. Plus the way they tried to make the scumbag cop's death somehow dramatic fell so flat it was almost laughable. Daredevil's second season was absolute nonsense, but it at least kept up the pace and adrenaline going, whereas Luke Cage felt it was going swiftly into sweet fucking nowhere.

I haven't had any interest in this series, but neither did I have such for Daredevil, Jessica Jones or Luke Cage. I started watching them because of the good reception.

 

[Zontar]

Well is it better than Luke Cage?

Well the plot definitely moves along a bit faster, though I feel the first few episodes focus a bit too much on how New York's corporate culture sucks the life and soul out of people. That being said I'd definitly rate it about Luke Cage or Jessica Jones, but definitely below DareDevil because DareDevil was a masterpiece of pacing and story structure that's about as near perfect as you can get. And it managed to do so while being 98% faithful to the source material (the only part that wasn't was the reason Stick left him, which I really wish they'd done the 3 minutes needed for the actual reason in the comics)

 

[Saelune]

Well is it better than Luke Cage? I stopped watching that about halfway through because there was no tension or a sense of things going somewhere at all. The villain was a completely ineffectual fuck-up, Cage was just invincible and no one seemed to be able to threaten him with anything, and by the episode on which I stopped watching it seemed like everything was solved. Plus the way they tried to make the scumbag cop's death somehow dramatic fell so flat it was almost laughable. Daredevil's second season was absolute nonsense, but it at least kept up the pace and adrenaline going, whereas Luke Cage felt it was going swiftly into sweet fucking nowhere.

I haven't had any interest in this series, but neither did I have such for Daredevil, Jessica Jones or Luke Cage. I started watching them because of the good reception.

Dunno if you will like it or not then. I think the tension is there in spades personally, but I dont know if you will like it the way I did. You will probably hate the beginning episodes, since that seems to be where all the hate is, but honestly I rarely felt like I knew how alot was going to play out much of the time.

If you want a Kung-Fu series where everything is solved with kicks, then you will be disappointed, but honestly, I would have loved this series even without Iron Fist involved.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I kinda wanna watch it just to see how bad it is.

 

[SKBPinkie]

Man, I really wasn't expecting to see so many people bash Luke Cage on this thread.

I thought it was fantastic. My only issue with it was that Diamondback was completely boring. Literally all the other villains on that show were better. Cottonmouth was especially great.

The one thing I think everyone seems to agree on is that Daredevil Season 1 was the best of what we've seen so far.

 

[ObsidianJones_v1legacy]

Well is it better than Luke Cage? I stopped watching that about halfway through because there was no tension or a sense of things going somewhere at all. The villain was a completely ineffectual fuck-up, Cage was just invincible and no one seemed to be able to threaten him with anything, and by the episode on which I stopped watching it seemed like everything was solved. Plus the way they tried to make the scumbag cop's death somehow dramatic fell so flat it was almost laughable. Daredevil's second season was absolute nonsense, but it at least kept up the pace and adrenaline going, whereas Luke Cage felt it was going swiftly into sweet fucking nowhere.

I haven't had any interest in this series, but neither did I have such for Daredevil, Jessica Jones or Luke Cage. I started watching them because of the good reception.

Actually, Luke Cage goes into hyperdrive right after the point you seemed to stop. The entire dynamic changes pretty quickly.

I always thought of him as the anti-Daredevil and they played that up well. Daredevil was almost bred to be the warrior he is. Luke Cage wanted nothing to do with anything but his own life. But due to other people's meddling, he was thrust into the change of Human History as one of the 'Heavy' Hitters.

That's why he's a Hero for Hire. While a good man, he doesn't go out of his way to right wrongs at first.

There is a serious threat to Luke Cage later on. In fact, it does a lot to make him less Super. But still, it's there.

I'm 4 episodes deep as well, and I'm enjoying it. It's not amazing, but it's solid.
I don't get the hate.

I can't answer that, but I can tell you the very bad and shallow reason I'm not going to watch it. As a martial artist, seeing a guy who is supposed to be one of the premier martial artists in the marvel universe being played by a guy who isn't as good as I was when I was a Tae Kwon Do white belt is severely offputting.

 

[LostCrusader]

I'm having trouble finishing the first episode. Its been pretty boring so far, and everyone except the martial arts instructor seems to be batshit insane. Seems like its not going to be worth my time.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

I sure appreciate Coleen in that workout gear, unf dat ass.

But seriously It was good but maybe could have been better. I really wanted more fights and I wish they could have slipped in a bit of Daredevil. Why wouldnt you call him dammit? They teased it happening so damn hard too!

 

[Kajin]

I really wanted more fights and I wish they could have slipped in a bit of Daredevil. Why wouldnt you call him dammit? They teased it happening so damn hard too!

Probably nods to The Defenders show that's coming down the line where all the TV Marvel heroes team up.

 

[Zontar]

It's not fair. It's not fucking fair.

Spoiler

They had Misty in Luke Cage, she is in the setting, she left the force when that was over. Why? Why do this to us?

 

[Saelune]

It's not fair. It's not fucking fair.

Spoiler

They had Misty in Luke Cage, she is in the setting, she left the force when that was over. Why? Why do this to us?

Im hoping after Cage and Danny meet in The Defenders, they make a Heroes for Hire series and that is when characters like Misty and Colleen get to know eachother and all that.

 

[Kyrian007]

I... I thought it was good. But I did have some issues with it.

They provided a complex villain, then swerved him 2 more times to being more complex... then less again... and dropped him by the end. And they still somehow scrapped an interesting villain to replace him with a less interesting one, which was also problem with Luke Cage and DD 2. Yeah, they brought the interesting one back... but still.

People have talked about the pacing. But it was just a slower boil than DD, JJ, or LC. Its not a problem really, unless it doesn't pay off. And it doesn't always pay off well in IF, but it pays off.

Some of the "connections" are really starting to wear thin. I'd stop short of saying Claire should not have been in IF, but not by much. Leaving her out would explain why she wouldn't get in touch with Matt Murdoch when she knows that Danny is up against the Hand. Instead of just the immersion breaking "well, we're saving that for the Defenders" reason. The connections really don't need to be there just to keep the viewers interest, just telling a good story in an interesting universe will do that. They don't need to keep running into the same cops, the same nurse, the same lawyer... New York is freaking huge. Every time one of these "connections" pops up, its making the show seem like its happening all in the same 5 or 6 blocks.

So it wasn't perfect. But it added to the worldbuilding well. And one thing I thought it really nailed... it really contrasted Luke and Danny. One of the things that made Heroes for Hire work so well is that Danny and Luke have almost NOTHING in common. And yet somehow they gel very naturally. And although they haven't met yet so time will still tell... it seems like they've at least set that up right.

 

[Chimpzy_v1legacy]

It's alright, I guess. I'm seen the first five episodes, which did make me roll my eyes quite a few times, but things improved a little when the actual plot started kicking in. It is the weakest of the Netflix MCU so far, but I haven't seen anything that would make me believe the show is unsalvageable.

The fight scenes are my greatest complaint with the series. Comics Danny Rand is supposed to one of the most skilled martial artists in the Marvel universe, someone who could go up against the likes of Captain America or Wolverine and give them a good run for their money. Even considering he had to be careful not to keep his surroundings safe, MCU Danny Rand had trouble with a single mook, apparently for no real reason other than the plot requiring it (and a pointless plot point at that, because that x-ray turned out not to be all that vital at all), when by all accounts he should've wiped the floor with him in no time flat.

And we know the Netflix MCU can do better, because we've seen it in Daredevil. That had some great fight scenes with visceral choreography and good camerawork. The most impressive martials arts I've seen in Iron Fist so far is the sometimes janky CGI in the title sequence. The action is serviceable so far, but I expect good to great martial arts in a series about a great martial artist.