Let's talk about magic.

Aetrion

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Well, there is a difference between simple and stupid. The problem I have with most magic systems is that you are supposedly playing a roleplaying game, but you don't ever get to actually embody the role of the wizard and be the person who actually knows a lot of stuff or is particularly smart about things.

I mean how many games have we all played where the wizard test is basically just killing a bunch of enemies? It's never anything clever.
 

Casual Shinji

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I don't care as long as it looks cool.

I'm summoning meteors from the very heavens in Dragon's Dogma to smite my enemies. How? Because fuck yeah, that one meteor just took out three dudes! AWESOME!!!
 

RJ 17

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Aetrion said:
Lately I've sort of increasingly felt that roleplaying games are just getting lazy with the way they do magic, and the inclusion of magic for classes or plot devices really just boils down to handwaving all logic and plotholes by saying "A wizard did it".
For your entertainment:



Now, on a more serious note, I fully understand and appreciate where you're coming from...but do you fully understand what you're asking for? Judging by your OP, it seems you're looking for a Magical Studies Simulator. Would you really be entertained if you start up an RPG and instead of getting to the story you have to spend the first 40 hours simulating 30 years of magical studies in a library in some mage's tower?

Can't say I'd find that to be very compelling gameplay, myself.

Sounds like what you really want is a game where your INT stat actually affects something in the game beyond how big your numbers can get when throwing spells. There are games such as this...for instance, Planescape: Torment. The higher your intelligence stat and/or wisdom stat, the more options you have in dialogue. The same goes for the first two Fallout games on the PC. In fact, there's three ways you can beat the main boss of Fallout 2: use your charisma to convince his bodyguards to join you and fight him. Use your intelligence to hack a computer and make the automated turrets fire on him, or the good ol' fashioned way of just straight-up fighting him.

If you haven't played it yet, though, I would highly suggest looking into Planescape: Torment and going with a mage character. As your intelligence grows, more interesting things start to happen (unlocking memories and such). I think that game would probably come as close to having the sort of meaningful intelligence stat that you're looking for.
 
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Hmmm...

Well, this is how magic works in an RPG world I've created (I only have one game made in it so far, though, and I didn't get much of a chance to delve into how magic works yet as a result)

There are 2 kinds of magic in that world. Blessings and "Regular" Magic.

Blessings are powers that a God bestows upon someone they favor. However, most of the gods either don't give blessings or they're subtle. Pain doesn't give blessings, but a faction has managed to make an artificial Pain Blessing in a roundabout way. Fate only ever blesses those who fully embrace their fate (VERY Rare). And Fury only blesses those who defy their fate, and blesses them by granting them strength which matches their force of will. Only the Goddess of Mercy hands out blessings regularly, and only to the faction that worships her and does her bidding, and her blessing is along the lines of healing and protection magic. As a result, most people think that this faction is just a bunch of mages, when they're really an army of the Blessed.

As for regular magic, there are Spells and books about magic written in an incomprehensible language with ZERO hard rules to it. Nothing about the language make sense, and all magical chants needed to cast spells use this language.

However, by consistently trying to study this language some people have what's called "the Epiphany", where suddenly, everything about it makes sense and you become capable of understanding the language and thus, being able to cast spells by using it.

The more you click with it, the better you become at casting spells, with true masters able to cast simple fireballs and stuff with one or two words.

Also, it has little to do with actual Intelligence. It's got more to do with willpower and how much you want to learn magic and tap into its power. Trying to explain the language to someone is impossible.

...Oh, and there's also summoning, which most people theorize is simply "Stealing" a creature from the realm of the Gods and bringing it to the mortal plane. They're mostly right about that.

I lied. There's only one kind of magic in the world. Blessings.

I'm going to reveal in a later game that in an age long ago, there was a 5th God. The Goddess of Discord, who granted blessings to people in order to cause havok and mayhem, blessings in the form of "magic", IE the ability to do things that are physically impossible like hurl giant fireballs at people.

However, that Goddess entered the mortal plane and was killed (long story and I haven't hashed out what I want to have happened, but it's pretty epic). As she was slain, her will blanketed the world. That residual will that exists in the mortal realm is what grants Magic. By trying to wrap your heard around magic and willing yourself to master it, you allow a bit of the Goddess' shattered will into your mind until you have the Epiphany and are able to understand a tiny little fraction of her true self, and thus you essentially Bless yourself with her power.

This was before the humans of that world truly rose into prominence, so there's practically no evidence of this having happened.

In the end, though, I like magic in most game worlds just BECAUSE of the fact that I enjoy playing classes that can dream up a fireball out of sheer imagination and then nuke stuff with it. It's a form of power and strength that does not come from just raw physical power, and I like that.
 

Schadrach

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Evil Smurf said:
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke. I'd like a game based on tech so advanced it's like magic.
There's a pen and paper system built entirely on this concept called Numenera. There's a PC game in development in that setting that is also a spiritual successor to Planescape: Torment. It's titled Torment: Tides of Numenera.



Was going to throw in another vote for Arx Fatalis. My biggest complaint about it's magic system is that it gave you too many of the spell formulas. I would have liked it better if they'd only given you enough formulas to guess what the rune meant and experiment.

Also spell interactions in Arx were awesome. Cast an Aam-Yok-Tarr and while the fireball is powering up in front of you (or while it's airborne but still close) you could throw out an Aam-Yok to "ignite" the fireball just like any other flammable object (this increases it's damage by a bit, and stacks with itself).

Also, Mega-Mega-Mega-Aam-Vitae-Tera. Enough said.



If you aren't necessarily limiting yourself to video games, there's a CCG called Serpent's Tongue that captures the effect, in no small part because it includes a constructed language and expects you to perform verbal and somatic components for spells you play or waste the turn. This ranges from spelling a few letters for a simple effect to chanting a phrase while moving a handsign in a pattern for a higher end spell -- the handsigns and movements follow a straightforward pattern wherein the handsign is linked to the school and the motion to the category of effect. Some spells have multiple versions at different strength.

For example the level 2 version of the "Mark of Kain" spell might require saying Ithnal (literally "mark") and making the handsign of a clenched fist, while the level 3 version of the same spell is Shen'kain Ithnal (literally "of Kain, mark") and requires moving the handsign in a square pattern. If a level 1 version of the spell existed, it would likely be the names of the letters Th-N-L with no handsign.
 

happyninja42

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If you are talking about video games, you're kind of doomed from the start. What you seem to be asking is for the game developers to make the magic system be more complex for you as the player. And that's just not all that feasible. It's still going to boil down to pressing buttons. So I don't really know how to resolve your problem.

If you are just talking about having the magic system make more sense in the context of the game world, well that's up to the developers to flesh it out. Sadly, as you point out, many don't.

I personally fell that video games are always handicapped when it comes to conveying a vibrant magic system, because you are forever restricted by what the game devs coded. In tabletop roleplaying games, like Mage from White Wolf, it's waaay more flexible. You can create pretty much whatever spell you want, within some parameters. But really, your creativity and imagination are the only limits to what you can do in most cases. Video games, just simply don't have this luxury. So I would give them a little slack when it comes to having a lackluster magic system.
 

Zhukov

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Magic in game sucks, at least for me, for two reasons:

1. Thematically uninventive as all fuck. I'm trying and failing to think of the last game where magic didn't boil down to lights coming out of someone's hands and miscellaneous glowing crap.

2. Games, or rather gameplay mechanics, require that things be systematized. Spells, levels, mana, whatever. Once you systematize magic then it's not magical. It's dull. It's just a weapon and/or toolbox where everything has "magykal" names that I would probably be slightly embarrassed to say out loud.
 

TranshumanistG

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The way I see application of Intelligence to Magic in D&D, where wizards need to re-memorize spells every day before being able to cast them is that Intelligence is closely tied to learning ability and retention. All spells have this magic(duh) property about them that they're volatile, i.e., it's hard to keep them in memory, they constantly try to escape it and escape it completely, full bit overwrite, particularly when they are actually being recalled -- during the moment of casting. So, individuals who have a better ability to absorb and retain knowledge are better at resisting this effect. This ties in neatly with the notion that wizards are scholars who constantly exercise their mind.

Other sentiment I've seen here is that the intellectual nature of magic often is not reflected in gameplay, mitigating spell preparation and casting to almost purely manual labour. In some games I've seen this being mitigated a bit by allowing to combine spells for a different effect. This reminds me of shell scripting, where you usually chain together simple programs made by others that do specific stuff, having learned about how to use them and what effects can be achieved with them, but usually not delving into how exactly they are implemented.

I've also been entertaining in my head the idea of advanced magic mechanics (basically, reverse Clarke's law [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SufficientlyAnalyzedMagic]) where you design spells yourself and fine-tune them to the resources available and situations where you will use them. Something in the direction of Spellcraft: Aspects of Valor, where you create spells by combining alchemycal ingredients in specific proportions and a magic domain, but even deeper. I'm thinking of wizards being able to create and manipulate atomic 'elements' that have specific properties about them, but don't do much by themselves and building spells out of them.

For example, to create an energy bolt you first need an element that will receive the mana and store it for consumption. Then you need an element that converts mana to explosive force and wire it to the previous one to receive mana from it. Since the resulting spell would just immediately explode in caster's hands, you need to add a mana-impeding element between the two previous ones, which can control the flow of mana. To this one you need to wire up a two-element combination: a shell that envelops the spell and a sensor element wired to it so that when the shell breaks, the mana impedance gate is opened. Now the spell explodes on sufficient impact.

Now what's left is to put it to add another output to the mana storage element -- an element that will keeps converts mana to momentum, so that it's launched off the caster's hand. But the spell's not yet ready. One last step is to add another mana impedance gate between the mana storage element and the momentum element, so that the mana flow is limited to specific amount per time unit, limiting the maximum momentum and leaving some mana in storage. Now the spell is ready! The wizard creates all the elements, which naturally requires time and mana. Upon finishing, the caster starts pooling mana into the mana storage element, which in turn supplies it to the momentum element and the spell takes off, presumably towards the target. As the spell hits the target, the shell breaks and mana impedance gate to the explosive element is released, causing an explosion of magical energy at point blank range!

Since each element requires mana just to create it and its attributes(i.e., shell hardness, maximum storage) depend on supplied mana and after some amount of time the element will just dissolve if it not supplied additional mana to sustain it, designing spells would require careful consideration. This of course wouldn't be the past-time for everyone, but you could make it possible to trade spell blueprints and enchant items with them, allowing those not interested in intellectual exercises to enjoy their effects, while rewarding those who are with money and combat advantage.

A far as the platform for implementation of the mechanic goes, I think it's too complicated for a pen&paper game, so a computer is an only option. Computation of spell behaviour with these mechanics sounds to me like a large overhead, so most likely visual would have to be greatly sacrificed, possibly even other aspects of gameplay, even if some hard limits on spell complexity are imposed. One idea for optimisation I have is to heuristically calculate spell effects from some number of 'training' casts and after that apply this 'pre-calculated' effect in future instances of casting, without computing the whole mechanics again. Not sure how well this would work with non-trivial spells.
 

DrownedAmmet

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I've always wondered why mages always have a staff and robes. If they're trying to be Gandalf, he did it to pass off as an old man
Are mages all just so weak kneed they need a staff to walk? And what are they hiding under those robes??
 

EyeReaper

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Well, The first game that came to mind is a quaint little game called Magical Diary.

If you aren't turned off by it's Visual Novel/Dating Sim appearance, you'll find a magic system that I truly adore. Basically how it works is, there are five colors of magic Red, Blue, Green, White, and Black (cough MtG cough) and, as you progress through your wizard school year, you have to choose which courses you'll study per week. The more you take a certain color's class, the higher level of spells you learn for the dungeon crawling exams, and certain story events can change if you know the right spells (like using a force push to cheat at a crane game, or Spirit-Vision when at a ghost ceremony)

The real cool part is that at certain levels of study, you can combine elements for a multi-color spell, for example, red is your standard fireball lightning bolt stuff, and black is for manipulating matter and creating glyphs. At a high enough Black/Red state, you can create trap glyphs that erupt fire when stepped on.
 

Aetrion

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DrownedAmmet said:
I've always wondered why mages always have a staff and robes. If they're trying to be Gandalf, he did it to pass off as an old man
Gandalf's staff wasn't just for show, it's the source of all his power. The gods made his power into a staff as a constant reminder that he is meant to be a traveler and walk all over middle earth. The reason why Gandalf ultimately became the most powerful wizard is because he was the only one that didn't eventually forsake this calling. All the others had settled down, while Gandalf kept on traveling. When his staff gets broken in the last fight he knows that his time as a traveler and wizard is over, so he leaves middle earth with the elves.
 

Pyrian

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The indie game I'm making has a couple interesting takes. The spells are druidic and almost entirely about controlling the battlefield. The spell selection "evolves" with each casting; when you cast, you lose access to that spell for the cooldown period, but that cooldown unlocks additional spells. So selecting a spell isn't just about what you want to do now, but also about what you want to be able to do in the next five turns.

Smooth Operator said:
If you want a real world simulator try the real world...
Sadly, the magic system sucks.
 

BoogieManFL

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I agree that it's lazy making it all so reliant on intelligence. Sure, being intelligent can make just about anything easier to accomplish but if such a thing existed, or I made a game that had magic in it, it would be an innate talent or inclination.

Some people can naturally sing pretty well, while others are just terrible. Imagine a world where a witless thug could rise to power because they had magical inclination and had no moral objection with abusing that power.

And that robe and cloth armor stuff? That only exists to "balance" them. If magic users like we see in game were real, they would not be stopped by a Warrior or a Rogue (unless the magic user was disadvantaged somehow) because if someone could throw fireballs, freeze you, and all manner of deadly stuff at you, you're gonna die. Being more muscled or agile wouldn't make so much a difference. Combined with their common mind altering powers, magic users would rule their world. Other "normal" people would end up as pawns in their games against each other.



Instead, most Wizardly characters have a lot in common regardless of if they are good or evil aligned.
 

Tilly

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Aren't Biotics in Mass Effect supposed to be science somehow. Like their quantum entanglement communicators and whatnot. Just base it on some existing idea and ignore the real-world technicalities.
 
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I'd second Magicka, but you've already played that game.

I share most of your gripes though, and I'd say that most of my issues extend into a lot of books, shows and movies as well. The thing that annoys me the most is when the system just ends up being a vanilla D&D magic system. Not integrated into the world, no real background, it's just there because you have magic in these sort of games.

The worst of it to me is the Oblivion/Skyrim style (Although Skyrim isn't as bad for this) magic where everything is just magical bullets that do different things when they hit the enemy. Even if everything just deals damage, I like the spells to interact differently, and in interesting ways. Because of that, I like the magic system in Phantasy Star Online a lot. Each spell has a shape, a delay, etc... so that they each look interesting and distinct. The best skyrim got stuff like this was with the shouts, I wish stuff like that was worked into the magic system too.

That being said, I wish that nonlethal magic was more common, stuff like freezing enemies, knocking them back, interposing walls and such. Bascially the stuff you do in Magicka.

aegix drakan said:
Cool system, I love reading what people come up with for magic systems. Tends to be a lot more inspired than what companies end up churning out.

That's it, I'm starting a thread for this
 

MetalShadowChaos

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I quite like how Fromsoft's recent staple games(Souls, Bloodborne etc) have handled magic, as it's always been quite rooted in some fantastical 'reality' if you will, it all makes logical sense. Plus they like to delve into magical politics, schools of magic and distinguishing miracles from spells and forbidden magic. Hell, Dark Souls 2 even explored the possibility of a magic spell becoming sentient, which draws a fascinating parallel with the 'sufficiently advanced technology' quote that I love so much, by having a magical equivalent of AI.

Bloodborne is possibly the most rooted in reality, even if it means the system for 'magic' has been replaced with simple items with requirements. See, there are 'spells' in Bloodborne, but only in a technical sense. They're all items with special abilities. Weird invertebrate shells that secrete form's staple White Sticky stuff for weapon buffs, or open portals between worlds, and the severed claw of a beast that you can borrow the power of to emit a devastating roar that knocks everything around you back. Essentially it merges the spell with the catalyst, and allows the two to be more representative of each other, rather than keeping them separate, which is interesting in a new way.
 

Aetrion

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There is a certain merit to the idea that humans can't actually do magic, they can only borrow magic from other sources, since that lets you have the aspect of needing knowledge to "do magic" without having to actually explain the magic. You just need to be able to explain how you get your hands on some spirit's powers for a short time by entrapping it somehow or how you can harvest a magical reagent from a slain beast or something. In the Supernatural TV show they do a pretty good job of showing magic like that. Humans can cast spells in the show, but only supernatural creatures have actual innate supernatural powers. Humans just borrow some of that power.