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DreamKing

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Because of my love for RPGs, I am always excited to hear/see that my character has leveled up. Whether the game has me level up in a certain fashion or I pick my level up ablities myself, I could care less. However, there are flaws in both systems. The computer-controlled method lacks a degree of customization and (out of the games I've played) have items that improve your character, but the items don't work 100% of the time due to various restrictions. I prefer to play as a balanced character in games where I can purchase abilities (found in games similar to Fallout 3) and because of some form a level cap, my character does not become strong in really any area.

Some games with a computer-controlled level up system, like Pokemon, have solved the problem by the use of EVs, or Evolution Values (can someone confirm the correct terminology, I think this is correct but I'm not sure). When an opponent's Pokemon is defeated, your Pokemon gains an EV based in one or two stats based on the opponent's Pokemon. Collect 4 EVs, and your Pokemon will go up one point in that stat. Also the personalities affect the stats upon level up. The use of titles in Tales of Symphonia boosted stats according to what the titles bonuses are.

Some games with ability purchasing, like the Fable series, has removed the amount of prescribed level advances, instead favoring a system that allows players to have max everything. That took copious amounts of time to do in the original Fable and was made massively shorter in Fable II, not that it is a bad thing. But Fable is a small blip in the massive tide of RPGs that allowed players to purchase abilities. For example, trying to play as a balanced character in Geneforge was impossible due to the massive amount of abilities to choose from. Hack and slash and dungeon crawling RPGs allow players to choose their stats they wish to improve, but I have come across games in these subgenres where I could choose to set point distribution on autopilot, but that looked akward in game that allowed to distribute my own points upon level up.

So my question to the Escapist is: What type of leveling up do you prefer? What are the disadvantages and advantages in either system as you see them? Would you play a RPG that had a hybrid of both systems?
 

Yoshi_egg80

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Apr 1, 2009
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The EV is overly annoying espically knowing some one having a 415hp swampert just for it to have 400+hp. I don't care really as long as it makes me able to kill the next badguy.
 

Daniel Cygnus

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I think it really depends on the game, I've found I prefer custom leveling in Western RPG's and programmed leveling in JRPG's.
 

Stegofreak

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I do like to balance as best I can by whatever means the game allows. In Guild Wars for example I have two main characters that I use, both at the max level. Unfortunately though you are limited in aportioning attribute points so one om my characters has them split equally between three areas of combat while the other has maxed out two areas.

It also depends on how easy/hard it is to gain points/levels. In WWE Legends of Wrestlemania for example my character could defeat most people without improving so I upgraded him by maxing each area one after the other.

In general though I go for an even allocation of points.
 

paragon1

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Dec 8, 2008
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The computer-controlled method lacks a degree of customization and (out of the games I've played) have items that improve your character, but the items don't work 100% of the time due to various restrictions.

This sentence confuses me. What game have you played that gave you items that didn't work? The only situation I can think of where that would happen is in an MMO where there are a lot of different player classes.

To answer your question, I feel that each system has its place. In games like WoW, where the stats that would benefit you the most are predetermined, there wouldn't be much point to doing otherwise, and it keeps n00bs (such as myself) from making mistakes that would seriously screw them in the long run. I can also understand the appeal of being able to completely customize your character. If you have a problem with games not letting you max out everthing, you should know that that is intentional. Your supposed to be trying to create a character who would solve problems a certain way (hence the "role" in role playing games). Your not trying to create a character who can do everything and is basically God. You'll get more replay value from an RPG or action RPG if you do it the former way.
 

-Seraph-

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When I played Final Fantasy 2 long long ago I fell in love with it's leveling concept and think it's by far the best one for me that is. I like to call it the cause and effect stat system. If you've played FF2 you'll know how it goes, there are no levels per say, just your character stats.

If you use a sword a lot, your sword level goes up, use a bow a lot and the same will be achieved. Now if you try to multitask with every weapon all the weapon stats will be adversely affected and you will not be overly proficient in one or the other. Being really good with one can lower another. Same goes for spells but without affecting each other. Use fire or heal a lot and it will grow more potent.

Now when it comes to the stats it works by cause and effect as well. Your defense and HP will rise if you take so much damage in battle, that character will grow more resilient. You dodge a lot in battle your agility goes up. Use a lot of magic and your int goes up while you'll be a tad weaker in physical abilities. Using brute force and weapons increased strength but make you less powerful in int and magic. Although you still allow for gradual natural fixed stat accumulation to occur after so many set experiences, so essentially this cause and effect are boosters and alter your character from what would otherwise be the stock build from the fixed parameters.

You can probably see what I'm getting at here with the whole cause and effect concept. I love it because it's realistic in a way and can really shape your character in some interesting ways. I really want more RPG's to feature this type of stat/level system. I think it's just brilliant and it feels less artificial. No more exp per say but your literal experiences in battle truly shape your character. I guess fable (not played it) took some of these ideas but I really wanna see this in more RPG's of any sort, just put some fail safes in to prevent cheating the system.
 

Flying-Emu

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-Seraph- said:
When I played Final Fantasy 2 long long ago I fell in love with it's leveling concept and think it's by far the best one for me that is. I like to call it the cause and effect stat system. If you've played FF2 you'll know how it goes, there are no levels per say, just your character stats.

If you use a sword a lot, your sword level goes up, use a bow a lot and the same will be achieved. Now if you try to multitask with every weapon all the weapon stats will be adversely affected and you will not be overly proficient in one or the other. Being really good with one can lower another. Same goes for spells but without affecting each other. Use fire or heal a lot and it will grow more potent.

Now when it comes to the stats it works by cause and effect as well. Your defense and HP will rise if you take so much damage in battle, that character will grow more resilient. You dodge a lot in battle your agility goes up. Use a lot of magic and your int goes up while you'll be a tad weaker in physical abilities. Using brute force and weapons increased strength but make you less powerful in int and magic. Although you still allow for gradual natural fixed stat accumulation to occur after so many set experiences, so essentially this cause and effect are boosters and alter your character from what would otherwise be the stock build from the fixed parameters.

You can probably see what I'm getting at here with the whole cause and effect concept. I love it because it's realistic in a way and can really shape your character in some interesting ways. I really want more RPG's to feature this type of stat/level system. I think it's just brilliant and it feels less artificial. No more exp per say but your literal experiences in battle truly shape your character. I guess fable (not played it) took some of these ideas but I really wanna see this in more RPG's of any sort, just put some fail safes in to prevent cheating the system.
Except there's one problem with that.

You get Ultima, and you have to grind for DAYS to make it half as powerful as your level 9 Fire spell.

Also, fists were the best proficiency in that game. You never had to buy new weapons, and they became so incredibly powerful that my Fist character was showing up my Excalibur/Superaxe (can't remember best axe's name) user in terms of damage.

Admittedly, his health was SHIT, but he killed everything so fast... it didn't matter.
 

-Seraph-

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Flying-Emu said:
Except there's one problem with that.

You get Ultima, and you have to grind for DAYS to make it half as powerful as your level 9 Fire spell.

Also, fists were the best proficiency in that game. You never had to buy new weapons, and they became so incredibly powerful that my Fist character was showing up my Excalibur/Superaxe (can't remember best axe's name) user in terms of damage.

Admittedly, his health was SHIT, but he killed everything so fast... it didn't matter.
Well keep in mind this is the CONCEPT that I adore. Yea the game was kinda bugged and could be cheated but this concept itself was great. Like I said, put some fail safes in so to keep little problems like that balanced. If you got Ultima it was already uber powerful because it's supposed to be the best spell so it's level 1 power is still retardedly strong. Fists being more damaging and powerful than your sword stat pretty much means your a monk type guy ya know. Anyways I still think the actual concept itself is solid and with some tweaks added to it, I would be all over that RPG.
 

Flying-Emu

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-Seraph- said:
Flying-Emu said:
Except there's one problem with that.

You get Ultima, and you have to grind for DAYS to make it half as powerful as your level 9 Fire spell.

Also, fists were the best proficiency in that game. You never had to buy new weapons, and they became so incredibly powerful that my Fist character was showing up my Excalibur/Superaxe (can't remember best axe's name) user in terms of damage.

Admittedly, his health was SHIT, but he killed everything so fast... it didn't matter.
Well keep in mind this is the CONCEPT that I adore. Yea the game was kinda bugged and could be cheated but this concept itself was great. Like I said, put some fail safes in so to keep little problems like that balanced. If you got Ultima it was already uber powerful because it's supposed to be the best spell so it's level 1 power is still retardedly strong. Fists being more damaging and powerful than your sword stat pretty much means your a monk type guy ya know. Anyways I still think the actual concept itself is solid and with some tweaks added to it, I would be all over that RPG.
Oh, I agree. With a little tweaking that could be the best system ever.

Although I never got Ultima past level Four. I just got sick of killing Antlions and those big worm things in the desert.
 

-Seraph-

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Flying-Emu said:
Oh, I agree. With a little tweaking that could be the best system ever.

Although I never got Ultima past level Four. I just got sick of killing Antlions and those big worm things in the desert.
Oh yea the grind could be terrible sometimes, although I actually enjoyed it because every choice I made really did make a critical difference...even if I DID cheat a few times lol. Oh and that desert is EVIL!! I remember accidentally freeing my chocobo while in the middle of it and it took forever for me to get home because I kept getting fucking killed...I was low level and still exploring lol.
 

quiet_samurai

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Apr 24, 2009
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i like lvling up in WoW, that DUUUUUNGGG and ray of heavenly light was so gratifying. Too bad you can only experience it 80 times on one character. If there was a vendor that did nothing but cast that on you as a fun little add, I guarantee he would be the richest NPC on the net.
 

Rigs83

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Feb 10, 2009
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I prefer a laser level. They keep my frames nice and level. After that I prefer unlimited levels for single player just because I am a narcissist and want my avatar to be as omnipotent as I am impotent.
 

Jettling

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May 27, 2009
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I rather liked Oblivion's levling system because you can get level 100 odd without killing a single thing, using mercentile, speachcraft and skills that don't inclued killing =D
 

randommaster

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Yoshi_egg80 said:
The EV is overly annoying espically knowing some one having a 415hp swampert just for it to have 400+hp. I don't care really as long as it makes me able to kill the next badguy.
What are you talking about? The EV/IV system alows for aso much more customization than other games. knowing what you can get each of your pekemon to outrun is a huge benefit to strategy, and makes non-standard distributiuons more surprising.
-Seraph- said:
When I played Final Fantasy 2 long long ago I fell in love with it's leveling concept and think it's by far the best one for me that is. I like to call it the cause and effect stat system. If you've played FF2 you'll know how it goes, there are no levels per say, just your character stats.
The only problem with this system is that it is really easy to cheat the system. What I did the first time I started playing was put everyone except the girl in the back. I ended the game with her having rediculous evasion and magic defence, so much so, that even with only her alive I could revive the rest of my teamwithout her dying. The game ceases to be hard when you have an indestructable mage that has maxed out agility.
Flying-Emu said:
Except there's one problem with that.

You get Ultima, and you have to grind for DAYS to make it half as powerful as your level 9 Fire spell.

Also, fists were the best proficiency in that game. You never had to buy new weapons, and they became so incredibly powerful that my Fist character was showing up my Excalibur/Superaxe (can't remember best axe's name) user in terms of damage.

Admittedly, his health was SHIT, but he killed everything so fast... it didn't matter.
Forget Ultima, Flare got the job done and was available much earlier.

I purposely didn't teach anyone Ultima because the aforementioned healer didn't need to become more overpowered. RPG's cease to be fun when you can one-shot everything, so I try to keep "ultimate" things from actually being used. I actually kind of skrewed myself over in FFII for the GBA because I would always unequip everything from temporary characters, so when the Soul of Rebirth portion came around, Half my party had no equipment or spells.
 

NeutralDrow

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quiet_samurai said:
i like lvling up in WoW, that DUUUUUNGGG and ray of heavenly light was so gratifying. Too bad you can only experience it 80 times on one character. If there was a vendor that did nothing but cast that on you as a fun little add, I guarantee he would be the richest NPC on the net.
I solve that problem by using more than one character willingly. ^_^

Not to say I wouldn't patronize an NPC who did that, of course!
 

randommaster

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NeutralDrow said:
quiet_samurai said:
i like lvling up in WoW, that DUUUUUNGGG and ray of heavenly light was so gratifying. Too bad you can only experience it 80 times on one character. If there was a vendor that did nothing but cast that on you as a fun little add, I guarantee he would be the richest NPC on the net.
I solve that problem by using more than one character willingly. ^_^

Not to say I wouldn't patronize an NPC who did that, of course!
What about multiboxing and hearing that sound in stereo?
 

Lord Beautiful

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Aug 13, 2008
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I suppose I endorse Morrowind's and Oblivion's level-up systems. Given that you put in the time and effort, you can master everything.
 

NeutralDrow

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randommaster said:
NeutralDrow said:
quiet_samurai said:
i like lvling up in WoW, that DUUUUUNGGG and ray of heavenly light was so gratifying. Too bad you can only experience it 80 times on one character. If there was a vendor that did nothing but cast that on you as a fun little add, I guarantee he would be the richest NPC on the net.
I solve that problem by using more than one character willingly. ^_^

Not to say I wouldn't patronize an NPC who did that, of course!
What about multiboxing and hearing that sound in stereo?
Maybe...*pulls out a fiddle* if I were a rich man.

(<url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBHZFYpQ6nc>Yubby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dum!)