Leveling systems in games

[FatalFox]

I would like to hear what you guys think about how leveling systems are done in "RPG's", or even action games with upgradable elements.
What do you prefer, what do you dispise and what do you want to see more of?

Almost ever since pen and paper rpg's it has been about putting points into a set of attributes (health, sword damage, blocking, luck, mana etc.) but games like oblivion and skyrim did some interesting things as far as leveling goes, you do something, it raises a stat in that thing you did, and you can further spend earned level ups on perks. It's a solid system in my opinion, but it's split, some like the more traditional system while others like the newer dynamic one.
Then there are action games with upgradable skills, like deus ex: HR, mass effect 2-3 the newest Syndicate and so on, some might argue those are a bit shallow, but I feel they fit well as giving depth to a simple game instead of dumbing down a previously more complicated one.

either way I'm rambling, so to sum it up:
What's your opinion on dynamic/vs/traditonal leveling systems, and what leveling systems would you like to see in future games?

 

[Hal10k]

From a purely mechanical standpoint, I consider an RPG to be defined by a gradual increase in strength accompanied by exponential specialization. So, a leveling system alone does not designate something as an RPG. Call of Duty's multiplayer is not an RPG despite having a leveling system, because while you gradually increase in power, you are only forced to make temporary concessions to specialization. Dark Souls is an RPG because it introduces opportunity cost to the situation; specializing in one area will leave you weakened in another in the long term.

 

[Zantos]

I think more games need to take the amorphous blob of starting skills and upgrade on the fly, like Skyrim. I got really fed up of other people advising me on what classes and skills are good or bad in games, only to get to a stage where I just started again, I like being able to explore what's good or useful and upgrade accordingly, with upgrades being unlocked as I practice that skill in the game world.

The earn your xp however you like and spend it however you like system is one I'm not a fan of. You have levelled up after slaughtering monsters with a minigun and a rocket launcher, now you can be more stealthy! No, make me stealth to get more stealthy.

Though I am a big fan of an overpriced tome and a large geordie in the corner telling me how much more xp I earned for shooting my friend.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Well, the Oblivion leveling system was terrible. [http://planetelderscrolls.gamespy.com/View.php?view=Walkthroughs.Detail&id=11] The Skyrim one was less intrusive because Skyrim "streamlined" some of the RPG mechanics out.

I'm fine with spending points on stats, spending points on skills, or both. I also am a fan of less-traditional progression mechanics - a game I'm playing now with just such a progression mechanic is Brogue. Abilities are entirely based on what items you own, so the main progression mechanic is actually enchantment scrolls. You can use them to make certain items more powerful, and in doing so effectively level up your character. I.e., you can spend your scrolls on a big axe and a suit of armor to make a melee fighter, a ring of wisdom and a staff of lightning to make a wizard, and a ring of stealth and a hammer to make a guy who sneaks around and hits people with a hammer when they aren't looking. It's a cool system because it's insanely flexible.

 

[Lucem712]

I really enjoyed the system in Fallout 3/NV though, Skyrim's method actually make sense. You smith, you become more experienced in smith. I guess it's more conducive to actual 'role-playin'

 

[Smooth Operator]

I have a preference to old systems where I decide where the points go and what skills I get, but it is a minor part of the game that only shines once tightly woven into the rest.

Now while the classless automated Skyrim system sounds interesting on paper it is yawn inducing in game, I haven't even cared about the levels since the start of the game, not only does the game decide what you are on it's own but the "skills" to pick are meaningless garbage, 5% to this, 1% to that, -2% tax ... could you possibly make it more soulless.

That being said there are a whole bunch of devs that didn't grasp even skills haveto be well designed, in most games there is just a bucket of meaningless drivel, badly balanced or badly segmented.
The whole Human Revolution upgrade screen was a wall of random, I don't know if they had a monkey loose that rearranged all their diagrams but it certainly felt that way.

 

[ScaryAlmond]

I actually really enjoy the upgrade system because it add a bit of realism to a game when you first drove a car you sucked but through practice you are much better.
It also adds a much larger depth into the game and adds in a kind of curiosity when levelling up because it urges you to try out new things and develop new strategies.
It keeps me further invested working for that new upgrade i really want or try out that perk I just unlocked.

 

[Zhukov]

I like levelling systems that involve customization and personal play styles.

I am unimpressed with levelling systems that just involve getting more powerful.

I want to be able to craft my own character, not just take a existing character and make his/her numbers get bigger.

 

[FatalFox]

From a purely mechanical standpoint, I consider an RPG to be defined by a gradual increase in strength accompanied by exponential specialization. So, a leveling system alone does not designate something as an RPG. Call of Duty's multiplayer is not an RPG despite having a leveling system, because while you gradually increase in power, you are only forced to make temporary concessions to specialization. Dark Souls is an RPG because it introduces opportunity cost to the situation; specializing in one area will leave you weakened in another in the long term.

Very true, things like call of duty where you shoot shit to earn xp to get bonuses isn't really what you would call an RPG, I put it in quotes because of this, but my OT was more about singleplayer upgrading/leveling systems, I should've stated that clearer.

 

[FatalFox]

I like levelling systems that involve customization and personal play styles.

I am unimpressed with levelling systems that just involve getting more powerful.

I want to be able to craft my own character, not just take a existing character and make his/her numbers get bigger.

I definitely agree with this, so many games where you level up your character comes down to get more health/do more damage, instead of getting meaningful skills you can put to use in game.

 

[GiantRaven]

Arcanum still has my favourite leveling system. 50 levels, get a point (or two) to spend when you level up. There are a huge variety of options available so you can create of greatly differing amount of characters to play as.

 

[TheLastSamurai14]

Spoiler: Warning: This image contains the best leveling system ever

And that system belongs to Final Fantasy V.

Fucking beautiful. Square, bring back this game's leveling mechanic, please! It was the best gameplay-oriented thing you ever created!

 

[Unia]

Spoiler: Warning: This image contains the best leveling system ever

And that system belongs to Final Fantasy V.

Fucking beautiful. Square, bring back this game's leveling mechanic, please! It was the best gameplay-oriented thing you ever created!

Eurgh, I don't want to even think how long that took...other than that I agree that was my favourite mechanic out of any Final Fantasy.

The TES system of get-better-by-practice is good on paper but daunting to play. It's not really that immersive to gain experience by hopping all over the place, persuading every NPC or repeatedly casting some minor buff spell.

I like a system that rewards achieving goals, regardless of how it happens. VtM: Bloodlines did that well, and Alpha Protocol to a lesser extent. You gain nothing from killing every mook - admittedly in both games going for a bruiser build made boss battles easier. On a side note, screw bossbattles!

 

[DoPo]

I hate systems where you gain levels. And I hate classes. I'd much rather do without any of them. Alas, that is not the case, as we are bombarded with both from everywhere. Few are the RPGs that don't have levels. I don't consider games with that only have RPG elements in my generalisation (for example Prototype). Action RPGs can really get iffy, though.

Now if anybody decides to comment on that, I'd prefer it if they didn't sound stupid (I've seen people go "so what do we do if we don't gain levels, huh? Shoot everybody?" and similar idiocy). I hate levels because they feel too artificial and too restricting. I understand what they represent, I just don't think they do it well enough. I prefer point buy systems - you get XP (of some sort) and then you spend it to buy upgrades in specific areas. Batman was mentioned but I suppose the same thing goes for Prototype, inFamous and others. From the actual RPGs, take a look at Bloodlines which does it beautifully: the XP you get is for completing quests not for just ending the lives of random beings. But murder can still work, I suppose - Redemption did it - you got XP for killing stuff (in a more classic D&D-y fashion) but you still used that XP to buy attributes and powers. Same goes for Fable - kill guys, get XP, upgrade your skills. No classes at all (Fable named you something based on what you are using but you there isn't a hard class).

Classes are something I still don't like but less so than levelling - the problem is the potential for clases to restrict you more than you like. Take D&D for example and one of the many cRPGs based on it - if you don't pick a class that has Diplomacy as a class skill you'll suck at it. I can't have a well spoken fighter, my fighter can only concentrate really well (which has no use for him). If I want to fight and cast some blasty spells, I have to multiclass and to do that I have to get a good preparation beforehand - if I don't plan my build from before starting to play I can end up with a really really shit character. Take Bloodlines for example, again - halfway through the game you decide you don't want to hit other people with your fists, you'd rather shoot them instead? Well congratulations - you are not screwed.

There are some hybrid and other systems that work quite well, in fact. I enjoy them. They take the freedom and mix it slightly with some restrictions for a more streamlined gameplay. The Elder Scrolls (I'm focusing on Morrowind) is good in most regards. Or at least the intention is really good. You gain levels but they don't do much mechanically - they only give you some health and a chance to increase some attributes. And you gain a level from increasing your class stats. Erm, execution could have gone better but at the very least it's not restrictive. There is Might and Magic as well - you kill stuff to get XP but you don't level up in the middle of a slaughter - instead you have to go and train to gain a level. This is a more interesting and better (IMO) take on the traditional levelling. I can't thing of other examples from the top of my head but they are out there and they are good.

 

[Terramax]

I've yet to come across a game where levelling has been anything more than a nuisance, replacement for skill or excuse to turn a 20 hours gaming into a 40 hour one.

Accept maybe Vagrant Story, where you earn extra attacks and spells, so technically not even levelling up, just giving you variety and extra strategies.

Yeah, lets go with Vangrant Story.

 

[Ddgafd]

Honestly, I'm a sucker for skill points. I love it when I can build my own character however I want to. I love that freedom. I don't mind the "level up, get stronger" system either, but I much prefer skill points.

 

[Kahunaburger]

I've yet to come across a game where levelling has been anything more than a nuisance, replacement for skill or excuse to turn a 20 hours gaming into a 40 hour one.

Accept maybe Vagrant Story, where you earn extra attacks and spells, so technically not even levelling up, just giving you variety and extra strategies.

Yeah, lets go with Vangrant Story.

This is how progression mechanics should theoretically function, IMO. You want a system that gives the player additional options, and makes them specialize in a sub-set of those options. Progression mechanics that add zeroes on to the end of everything are unfortunately more common, because creating a system that allows players to customize their tactical options takes effort.

 

[veloper]

Any leveling system is fine, aslong as it isn't like the elder scrolls.

Boring repetition should be assumed to take place offscreen and not waste my free time. Almost as bad as 1:1 levelscaling.

 

[marobidoux]

If you get a sweet buzz in your head whenever the level up message pops, the system is done right I'm looking at you, Diablo 2

Seriously, I prefer a stat and skill point allocation system over an automatic or "realistic" approach. I want to be in complete control of how my character evolves, regardless of what I really did to get there. And if this happens in the middle of a battle, so be it!

Less realism, more fun!

 

[Mordekaien]

I love the brilliant system of Gothic (first two, haven't played the others) You basically level up, and when you do, you gain learning points. Those can be used as currency to buy skills from trainers- The great thing about it was that the skills actually had an impact on your playstyle, meaning that you could wield a one hander untrained, however you could do only a slow two hit combo. If you've trained and got better at sword, our strikes would become better, faster and you could chain more strikes together. It made sense, yet, you could use weapons even untrained in a clumsy way.