LGBT in children's cartoons: Who did it better?

[Saetha]

Hello Escapist! Today I'm here because I'm curious about people's opinions on a very particular subject: which Western children's cartoon is the best with handling LGBT relationships? The two examples I'm fielding are.... (Drum roll, please!)

Legend of Korra vs. Steven Universe

Mostly I'd like to see discussion on these two, but before we get started, let me lay down some ground rules:

- Yes, if you don't like my examples, you can provide and discuss your own
- BUT they must be Western children's cartoons. No anime and no adult animation.
- Preferably be a canon or nearly canon relationship. No "This isn't confirmed or even supported really but I think they're cute together."

Now that that that's out of the way, let me dive into my discussion... (There will be spoilers for both series, by the way)

In this corner we have Nickelodeon's animesque juggernaut The Legend of Korra!

Spoiler

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/c094294c-0c09-4ae1-a075-48848947e586_zps7ea9920f_9005.jpg

Legend of Korra, in case you don't know (What rock have you been living under?) is about a young woman named Korra, who turns out to be the Avatar (An individual who can control all four elements, whereas most others in the series can only control one or none) Now Korra must navigate the dangerous politics of Republic City and save the world from bad guys and stuff!

Naturally, the LGBT relationship that Korra is famous for is the one between the titular character and her friend (Girlfriend, whateves) Asami.

http://assets2.ignimgs.com/2014/12/24/korra-finale-img-4jpg-c9920e_1280w.jpg

And the in the other corner, Cartoon Network's fresh-faced candy-coated Steven Universe!

Spoiler

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/steven-universe-key-art_7755.jpg

Steven Universe, in case you also don't know, is Rebecca Sugar's on-going cartoon (Currently in it's second season) about a boy named, what else, Steven Universe. It also centers around the Crystal Gems, an all-female team of gemstone-themed superheroes consisting of Garnet, Amethyst, Pearl, and Rose Quartz... or it did, until Rose fell in love with a human man, and gave up her physical form to give birth to their son Steven, who inherited her gem, the source of her power. The show's mostly about Steven's antics as he learns to mature and control his powers, but around the episode "Mirror Gem" it takes a sharp turn from a super-powered slice-of-life story to a complex and twisted tale of the Gems, their history, and their future. And they also save the world from bad guys and stuff!

The two relationships of note from SU are...

Ruby/Sapphire

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/steven-universe/images/e/e3/Ruby_and_Sapphire.png/revision/latest?cb=20150313024527

And Pearl/Rose Quartz!

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/steven-universe/images/5/54/Rose's_Scabbard_(54).PNG/revision/latest?cb=20150311195849

(For those of who think Pearl and Rose where just good friends, one of the writers confirmed Pearl's feelings were romantic. Also, c'mon, just watch Rose's Scabbard and We Need to Talk and tell me Pearl doesn't want a piece of that pink ass.)

Who do you think did it better? Who do you think had the most meaningful, most heartfelt, most engaging relationship? Or alternatively, what other, perhaps better, examples can you think up?

Spoiler: My opinion

Steven Universe wins it, hands down.

I'm going to tip my hand as to the real purpose this thread - I got into a similar debate with a friend, I said SU and she said LoK, so I wanted to get others' opinions. And obviously, I think Steven Universe did a far, far better job. Why?

Well, frankly, I feel like Korrasami was rushed, slapdash, shallow and generally unengaging. Maybe this is because they basically only had a season to build it up, maybe it's because most of Korra's development was unrelated to Asami, maybe it's because Asami (To me) was a boring-as-hell character, I dunno. I just couldn't get behind it. At the end I felt Korra was going to end up alone, and only got with Asami to A) Provide a twist and B) Because, well, that's what heroes do! They defeat the bad guy, save the day, get the girl - Bryke didn't want Korra alone because she's the hero and heroes aren't supposed to be alone in the end. They're supposed to get a reward in the form of a requited love interest, of course!

But SU - not only did it do what Korra did, it did it twice and it did it ten times better. Okay, yeah, Steven Universe has an advantage in that both of it's relationships are pre-existing, whereas Korrasami had to be built up, but in the end I feel like there's a good reason that they're there. They give depth and complexity. Let's look at them:

First we have Ruby and Sapphire, who are revealed to be two Gems that are not only hopelessly in love with one another, they're so compatible that they make a long-term gem fusion which produces our main character Garnet. We don't see much of them, but it's obvious from the first that they're close. As well as that, the nature of their existence is well fore-shadowed, and it adds a whole new depth to Garnet's character, her views on fusion, and on fusion in general. Also in the season finale she sings a really neat song about being the embodiment of Ruby and Sapphire's love is what makes her strong enough to kick the villain's ass. Look!


And then we have Pearl and Rose Quartz and... okay, so it might be a stretch to call this a relationship, given the Rose isn't shown to have feelings and ultimately fell in love with Greg (And is implied to have taken other human lovers) But I want to examine it more from Pearl's end. Like with Garnet, it feels meaningful, not some random love subplot thrown in because that's how it goes. Pearl is logical, collected, unemotional - except when it comes to Rose. Her love (or obsession, maybe) shows a whole different side to her, one that's jealous, heart-felt, irrational. It makes Pearl's story so much sadder, that she gave up the homeworld to stay by Rose's side, only to lose her to love, and is now tasked with the responsibility of raising the son she died for.

It's just so... interesting. Both of them add to the story, rather than simply wrapping it up. And where I was indifferent to Korrasami, I actually really feel for Ruby, Sapphire, and Pearl.

And noooooowww.... Fight!

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I mean can it really be up for debate? Avatar kinda danced around the issue and the only reason we know it is because the writer flat out told us after the show was done. Steven Universe, everything is right in the show itself and it's blatant.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

I must say that Korrasami came out of the left field. Just because they had been writing only each other for a long time does not a couple make.

And I haven't watched Steven Universe.

 

[Zhukov]

Korra didn't really commit to it. Just kinda threw it in at the end.

I don't have a problem with that, but I'm also not about to hold it up as a paragon of progressive inclusion or whatnot.

Never seen, or even heard of, Steven Universe. That clip was pretty sweet though.

 

[Veldel]

Wonder of that one guy who thinks it's all misunderstood will show up over korra.


OT: Havnt seen Steven Universe yet but iv heard good things but it's awesome to see other shows showing it.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

Steven Universe, no doubt about it for basically all the same reasons you explained OP.
The relationships in SU were planned if not from the beginning, very early on and they were executed accordingly with all the right notes and it makes them really feel like they have impact.

Spoiler: I mean look at it

Korrasami felt very sloppy, there's build up, but no commitment until the very end, there wasn't even any official confirmation until Bryke wrote a hasty blog post after the finale.

It's like the difference between a Marvel and DC film, one is just planned out better than the other and the extra effort shines.

----------------------

On the subject of LGBT in other cartoons, Gravity Falls was going to feature a same sex couple of little old grannies in the Love God episode, but Disney said no.

Spoiler

Spoiler: Though an argument could be made for the two cops

Why Sheriff Blubs and Deputy Durland are okay, but the two grannies are not, I have no idea.

Regardless, this makes at least one show from each major kids network (Disney, Cartoon Network, Nickelodeon). I'll take what I can get, it's a step.

 

[Something Amyss]

I mean can it really be up for debate? Avatar kinda danced around the issue and the only reason we know it is because the writer flat out told us after the show was done. Steven Universe, everything is right in the show itself and it's blatant.

Yeah, I know almost nothing about Steven Universe, but it wins almost by default here.

 

[WanderingFool]

I must say that Korrasami came out of the left field. Just because they had been writing only each other for a long time does not a couple make.

And I haven't watched Steven Universe.

Same deal with me. Havent watch Steven Universe, though Good GAWD!!! its like I cant step three paces online without hearing about it...

As for Avatar, yeah, it really does look to have been thrown in at the last minute...

 

[Terminal Blue]

I'm not a fan of either show so part of me feels I shouldn't comment.. but I just want to sketch out a broader point and one which I've discussed quite extensively with friends.

I think a major problem is the assumption that same-sex romance always or even normatively follows exactly the same path as heterosexual romance. We all know what a heterosexual romantic arc looks like and a lot of times representation of same-sex romance comes down to a partially genderflipped version of that..

But people forget that there is one major difference between gay/bi/queer/trans and straight people, the former have to come out. A lot of the time, the process of coming out is simply glossed over or assumed to be already in the past, but when you're wring for children that's kind of weird.. because from a child's perspective there is no past, there is no space for a child to come out except in the present, and that has to occur under a necessary haze of ambiguity and uncertainty in which friendship and romance are not clearly distinguished.

In short, while Korrasami doesn't seem to make much sense to most straight people I know, I also know quite a few LGBT people and especially LB women who have outright praised it as much more representative of their own experiences growing up, and something which they felt was more authentic in its ambiguity than a more overt and traditional love story might have been. We seem to be at the stage in media right now where you can show LGBT romance (or at least, same-sex romance).. but only if it's overt, confident and overwhelmingly adult romance. I'm very grateful for that, but it isn't the sum total of LGBT experience.

 

[Politrukk]

Korra didn't really commit to it. Just kinda threw it in at the end.

I don't have a problem with that, but I'm also not about to hold it up as a paragon of progressive inclusion or whatnot.

Never seen, or even heard of, Steven Universe. That clip was pretty sweet though.

Well there were hints, I think Korra's story if you look at it this way was sort of the "awkward coming out" without the actual cherry on top that was say an on-screen kiss because they may have found it too edgy still.

Although it was a step forward of course.

This Steven Universe thing just seems very on-the-nose with it if you know what you're looking at.

Therefore I vote for Korra because it's more realistic in that way and it mirrored the slow change in society that we have now and basically proved how difficult that shift is by not going full throttle.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

This Steven Universe thing just seems very on-the-nose with it if you know what you're looking at.

Therefore I vote for Korra because it's more realistic in that way and it mirrored the slow change in society that we have now and basically proved how difficult that shift is by not going full throttle.

Steven Universe though is also realistic in the sense of relationship dynamics.
Pearl loves Rose Quartz, but Rose Quartz chose Greg.

Pearl, while we're accustomed to seeing a very responsible, if a little overally protective character, showed some very relatable jealousy toward Greg when her love went unrequited and her arc involves her dealing with that.

To the show's benefit or disadvantage, depending on how you look at it, these relationships are already established, though the series is still young and they're getting more and more into the backstory, so they may yet write how things progressed into what they are.

Steven Universe also takes place in a modern day setting where LGBT is more accepted than in the style of era Korra is supposed to take place in [footnote]though I could argue that's no excuse considering Korra doesn't take place on Earth, so isn't subject to Earth's rules, but that's a topic for another time.[/footnote]

 

[Ishal]

Steven Universe, no doubt about it for basically all the same reasons you explained OP.
The relationships in SU were planned if not from the beginning, very early on and they were executed accordingly with all the right notes and it makes them really feel like they have impact.

Spoiler: I mean look at it

Korrasami felt very sloppy, there's build up, but no commitment until the very end, there wasn't even any official confirmation until Bryke wrote a hasty blog post after the finale.

It's like the difference between a Marvel and DC film, one is just planned out better than the other and the extra effort shines.

This.

The best writing is planned from the beginning almost always. Additions can be made here and there, same with subtractions. Sometimes it works out, but it'll never have the same effect as something that was heavily foreshadowed or alluded to in advance. Long term planning tends to always pay dividends, especially when it comes to specific character arcs. It's one of the many reasons TLA shits all over Korra.

And in a way, I'm kinda glad Bryke never really explored the romance and only really "showed" it in the finale. Because if they did, well... let's just say history shows romance in Korra was never really a strong suit.

- Korra and Mako was horrible because Korra constantly threw a fit whenever Mako said something that didn?t agree with her, and when Korra got her mind wiped Mako lied to her about their breakup
- Mako and Asami was horrible because Mako kept constantly going behind Asami?s back trying to win over Korra, and Korra goes along with it and ends up stealing Mako from Asami at the end of Book One.
- Bolin and Eska was an abusive relationship that was played for laughs
- Bolin and Opal started out decent enough but then Opal started acting like such a huge ***** towards Bolin in Book Four all because he willingly decided to work for Kuvira
- Varrick and Zhu Li another horrible abusive relationship that was played for laughs
- Pema and Tenzin are only together because Pema is a homewrecker and snatched him away from Lin.

Now, I'm no expert on relationships, but I feel like people generally expect better stuff than that.

And then there's the blog post... The "heteronormative lens" comment was poor. And that's the nicest way I'm going to put that. It's just another variant of an author having to justify or explain something outside the story. "He was a morman." If one has to clarify something outside the story, then they failed. And even if we're to take the heteronormative lens comment seriously, that just means that Bryke should have known and planned accordingly. The whole point of storytelling is to convey a point to the audience. And if said audience is viewing through a certain lens, for better or for worse, then that should be taken into account. And no, no amount of "b-b-but Nickelodeon" is going to justify it.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

I think the way to do it it right is to not make it obvious to the point of being insultingly obvious. There is subtext to relationships, if they don't do it right, then it comes off more as an effort to say; "We we're the first to do it!"

 

[Something Amyss]

Given Korra was dealing with Nickelodeon and the 'loving look into each others eyes' at the end was pretty much all they could get away with, I'm gonna cut them a *little* slack in that regard.

I'll give them slack in terms of spelling it out (Nick already had so much of an issue with A GIRL being the lead character), but it's still pretty weak as far as LGBT characters go.

I would agree, however, that rather than being unplanned, this is the best they could get away with.

 

[Pyramid Head]

I actually lean more towards Korrasami. The hints were rampant for the last two seasons, but because the creators wanted it to feel natural a lot of people who don't know what to look for missed the hints because they were pretty subtle compared to a group of insane anarchists causing an entire nation's government to collapse, one of the characters losing her mind for years, and a military dictator.

Korrasami is one of... maybe three relationships that i remember animation being done well (worth noting is that i've only seen clips of SU and may change my tone a little when i see that) because Bryke did play it subtle. We saw how saccharine things got with Aang and Katara at times and aside from a few stupid teenagers, pretty much everyone groaned at Mako's shit, so them keeping it at two close friends advancing their relationship was the right way to go. It could have been done a little better if they got Nickolodeon's approval BEFORE they were almost done with season four because they held back fearing retaliation from the network. Still, saying it's out of left field just towards the end is wrong. It was being suggested in the opening episode of season three to be starting, and the end of season three had a few heavy handed suggestions that Asami was already in love with Korra but smart enough not to drop that on someone who was dealing with some major issues at the time.


That said... one more detail...
Aren't the Crystal Gems like the Asari? Aren't they ALL female? Does it even count as a lesbian relationship when it's how the species always behaved and the exception was a relationship with a human?

 

[Silence]

Korra didn't even deal with it. The writers decided halfway through they rather go for bisexual characters, then couldn't show it because of Nickelodeon. Well, probably, that's what it felt like.

The other one is surely better.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

That said... one more detail...
Aren't the Crystal Gems like the Asari? Aren't they ALL female? Does it even count as a lesbian relationship when it's how the species always behaved and the exception was a relationship with a human?

*as I understand it*

They are non-binary, present female and accept female pronouns.
Basically, they came to Earth, people called them female and they rolled with it.[footnote]They probably didn't give too many shits about what the people of Earth thought of them considering they presumably came in order to conquer or consume our resources[/footnote]

What gems look like to each other is a different story, but they apparently seem to identify by gem type "A pearl" as in there is more than one pearl and less emphasis on individuality. There was an episode with a homeworld gem who mistook Steven for his mother, because presumably they identify each other by looking at the gem type rather than by looking at the face or body.

As for how gems reproduce, the show hasn't gone into detail on that yet though they are (as seen with Steven) able to change their biology enough to produce offspring with humans (they have shape-shifting abilities to an extent), though that is shown as being almost unheard of in gem society.

Hey it's a fun show to over analyze okay

 

[Pyramid Head]

Korra didn't even deal with it. The writers decided halfway through they rather go for bisexual characters, then couldn't show it because of Nickelodeon. Well, probably, that's what it felt like.

The other one is surely better.

You're half right, They original plan was for it to end with Korra on her own and decided to go with Asami because the creators fell in love with her character after managing to trick fans who thought she'd turn out evil so they decided during the planning of season two that they'd bury the Mako shit, something they threw in when they thought they'd only have one season, and spent a lot of season three and four hinting at it. But in the end them holding hands was the best they could do, the network explicitly forbade them kissing on screen. Mind you the implications that Asami was taking care of Korra after the Red Lotus attack speak a little more loudly than a kiss, and they did hint it almost every time they were on screen together. It's just that they both wanted to and thought they absolutely had to keep it subtle.