LGBT in children's cartoons: Who did it better?

[Pyramid Head]

I've discussed this before on page one, but thanks for being a good example of why Korrasami went kind of underrated. You missed pretty much every bit of subtext.

Alright, enlighten me.

When Mako and Korra weren't lip-locking they were either fighting or ignoring each other.

Okay... I never said that Mako and Korra had a healthy relationship, and I'm not clear on how that makes the relationship between Korra and Asami more romantic.

The series was one of few that recognized there's a difference between a crush and a relationship, showing the initial love triangle as stupid teen crushes

Yeah, I'm clear on the fact that Mako and Korra have no actual chemistry. So Korra and Asami, then?

but trying to build up the relationship between Korra and Asami as a friendship that evolved into a relationship. They went for a subtle, more natural approach.

Which consisted of what?

Hence why it may have been better off as something other than a kids show. Even if it weren't a bisexual relationship most people would STILL miss the clues since they're too used to Disney's garbage.

I haven't been a huge Disney fan since I was a kid, and I didn't notice any distinctive romantic subtext. So either the writers took note of the fandom's raging hard-on's for the pairing and decided to go with it at the last minute, or they planned the whole thing out and like half the people watching didn't even notice.

Subtlety is not an inherently good or bad thing, it's just a tool; people nowadays have a tendency to confuse it for an end in and of itself, but being too subtle with your storytelling is just as bad as being too overt. It's a balancing act, not vertical climb.

If an important and dramatic part of your story is too subtle, it just becomes obtuse; people can't form a connection to it or learn anything from it, because they're never certain of what it's supposed to actually mean.

See, what something could be is a matter of perspective. I can most certainly imagine a basically plausible version of Legend of Korra where Asami and Korra fall in love, if I was working off of confirmation bias. But I could also imagine a version of the story in which Iroh has was secretly orchestrating the actions of the Red Lotus from the spirit world, in order to weaken Korra enough for Kuvira to take over and unify the four nations.

My favorite example of this is The End of Evangelion, the story of which was presented almost entirely via symbolism, much of which you would need to have knowledge of theology to understand. The lack of a coherent plot didn't make the story more interesting, it just made it confusing. You could interpret it any which way you wanted, but none of them are satisfying because none of them are true; none of them can be attributed to the story itself.

If Korra and Asami's sizzling romantic tension had been less subtle and more emotionally involving maybe I would have actually cared about it.

They weren't going for "Romantic" they were going for natural. And no chemistry? Aside from how well they worked together, shared senses of humor, emotional and physical support, them trusting each other more than anyone else, and the only time Korra let an argument get to her, it was one with Asami? Asami inventing excuses to hang out with Korra? Korra always behaving more intimately with Asami?

It was there, but toned down because drawing too much attention too it can (and in Katara and Aang's case did) get cheesy and saccharine. After they had their fun simultaneously sinking the Mako and Korra and Katara and Zuko ship, the creators began working on the plans for that ending since season two. But it wasn't supposed to be dramatic or overly romantic, it was part of the two characters development. Honestly as much as i like the ship, it's pretty silly in my mind that it's one of the most talked about elements of that show even though the final season had Zelda Williams as Napoleon with magical weapons and one of the most on the nose depictions of PTSD since Spec Ops: The Line.

 

[sumanoskae]

They weren't going for "Romantic" they were going for natural. And no chemistry? Aside from how well they worked together, shared senses of humor, emotional and physical support, them trusting each other more than anyone else, and the only time Korra let an argument get to her, it was one with Asami? Asami inventing excuses to hang out with Korra? Korra always behaving more intimately with Asami?

If you will refer to my comment, I think you will find that I was referring to MAKO and Korra when I commented about the lack of chemistry. I totally buy Asami and Korra as friends, I just never saw their relationship as romantic. Attraction consists of more than fondness and good communication. My friends and I do almost everything you just described; we literally fly across the country to spend time together. Just because you enjoy someone's company doesn't mean you're attracted to them.

Honesty and trust are conducive to ANY relationship with another human being.

It was there, but toned down because drawing too much attention too it can (and in Katara and Aang's case did) get cheesy and saccharine. After they had their fun simultaneously sinking the Mako and Korra and Katara and Zuko ship, the creators began working on the plans for that ending since season two. But it wasn't supposed to be dramatic or overly romantic, it was part of the two characters development. Honestly as much as i like the ship, it's pretty silly in my mind that it's one of the most talked about elements of that show even though the final season had Zelda Williams as Napoleon with magical weapons and one of the most on the nose depictions of PTSD since Spec Ops: The Line.

Zelda Williams? *Googling*. HOLY SHIT, I NEVER KNEW THAT! 0_o

And the friendship, more or less, was natural and worked in favor of the story; the problem is, if it wasn't for that last shot, the concept of them as a couple would never have crossed my mind. It wasn't necessary and I found it contrived, for all the reasons stated above.

If they were really committed to the idea of just "Letting it show", why was it necessary for them to confirm it in the press? Why did the romance even have to be brought up? If the whole point was just to illustrate two people who cared about and trusted each other, why was romance even worked into the equation?

Would Lord of the Rings have been improved if, as Frodo and Sam were laying exhausted on the side of an erupting Mount Doom, Sam leaned over and passionately kissed him?

See, to my mind, there is a tangible and intuitively recognized difference between friendship and romance, and if you want to create an involving and meaningful romance in fiction, you have to treat the two kinds of relationships differently.

 

[Silvanus]

And the friendship, more or less, was natural and worked in favor of the story; the problem is, if it wasn't for that last shot, the concept of them as a couple would never have crossed my mind.

In fairness, that's true of a staggering number of straight romances, but they rarely prompt the same response.

 

[EvilRoy]

And the friendship, more or less, was natural and worked in favor of the story; the problem is, if it wasn't for that last shot, the concept of them as a couple would never have crossed my mind.

In fairness, that's true of a staggering number of straight romances, but they rarely prompt the same response.

True, but in this case I had the same reaction (and even after seeing the finale it was some time and a few forum threads before I believed it) for a related but different issue with the writing.

It wasn't so much that I thought there was no way K&A could possibly happen given story cues up to that point, but that it didn't make sense in the larger context of the show. That is, Mako, Bo Lin, and even to some extent the little airbender girl had huge, painfully hamfisted, very obvious we-are-going-to-get-together signals ahead of all of their relationships. Given that context it just did not even click in my mind that K&A was a thing that might happen simply because at no point had they accidentally pied eachother in the face or opened a cupboard only to have spring snakes and party streamers shoot out, leading to a hilarious gag shot and touching make-up.

Even if the romance could have had more clues or a bit better of a leadup, due to their closed lip approach it actually ended up being one of the better, more subtle and mature leadups to a romance I've seen in a kids show or elsewhere in quite some time. Which is unfortunate because in any other series this may have been really complimentary and stand-out, but in this one it comes off as an afterthought because of what I'm forced to compare it against.

 

[Redryhno]

And the friendship, more or less, was natural and worked in favor of the story; the problem is, if it wasn't for that last shot, the concept of them as a couple would never have crossed my mind.

In fairness, that's true of a staggering number of straight romances, but they rarely prompt the same response.

And to be fair, most of those are also "heat of the moment" situations.

 

[crazygameguy4ever]

korra's was just added on at the last minute to get the show publicity \.. Korra was gay.. she was straight. as for steven universe?.. never watched it outside of seeing a commercial here and there.. it's badly animated, badly written crap fest with lazy character designs and bad voice acting like most cartoons on cartoon network these days. i've never seen a cartoon with a gay character unless you count the amazing anime Bleach. that anime has opening lesbian character, Chizuru.. but she's a stereotypical gay character played for laughs not for realism

 

[sumanoskae]

And the friendship, more or less, was natural and worked in favor of the story; the problem is, if it wasn't for that last shot, the concept of them as a couple would never have crossed my mind.

In fairness, that's true of a staggering number of straight romances, but they rarely prompt the same response.

Sure. Plenty of male/female romances are just as forced, and everything I'm saying applies equally to them. I thought Mako and Korra's relationship was forced; if they were real people, I'd have pegged them as potential fuck buddies and nothing more.

I'm sure that some people reacted out of closeted homophobia; that's just a statistical probability. But I think there are also unique circumstances at play here.

First of all, the suggestion of romance literally happened at the very last few frames of the show; that's some next level asspulling.

Secondly, the show itself was ambiguous enough that lots of people were still not sure if the subtext was romantic when it was over; the creator actually had to confirm it via the press.

I get that they might have had it all planned in their heads, but from the outside, I can see why some people could think it was pandering fan service, or some kind of publicity stunt.

I disagree; I think it's just plain old sub-par writing, but I understand the argument.

 

[Gengisgame]

Never watched Steven Universe but the gay thing with Korra shows you how fickle most of the media is.

Great show that gets very little publicity and they stick in gay subtext at the end and suddenly it's the best show EVA with coverage when it doesn't matter anymore.

 

[Silvanus]

Sure. Plenty of male/female romances are just as forced, and everything I'm saying applies equally to them. I thought Mako and Korra's relationship was forced; if they were real people, I'd have pegged them as potential fuck buddies and nothing more.

I'm sure that some people reacted out of closeted homophobia; that's just a statistical probability. But I think there are also unique circumstances at play here.

First of all, the suggestion of romance literally happened at the very last few frames of the show; that's some next level asspulling.

Secondly, the show itself was ambiguous enough that lots of people were still not sure if the subtext was romantic when it was over; the creator actually had to confirm it via the press.

I get that they might have had it all planned in their heads, but from the outside, I can see why some people could think it was pandering fan service, or some kind of publicity stunt.

I disagree; I think it's just plain old sub-par writing, but I understand the argument.

You've made a fair case. Just to clarify, my point was not solely about closeted homophobia (though partly); I was also making the case that people may be holding gay relationships to a higher standard, without intending to do so, which may be due to a host of reasons aside from homophobia (including a frustrated wish to see better-written ones).

Just clarifying to make sure you didn't think I was being unduly harsh.

 

[NemotheElvenPanda]

Steven Universe hands down. It took the literal last minute and a post-ending Word of Gay to confirm that Korrasami is real and not just some hoyay fan baiting. It's also the only queer content in a four season series that's not going to get anymore limelight since Korra is over. Don't get me wrong, I love LoK and was (and still is) happy that Korra and Asami are together since I love the two characters to death, but it looked and felt like a total ass pull at the last possible moment to me.

SU universe in comparison makes it abundantly clear that Garnet is a literal embodiment of love between two individuals that appear and identify as feminine, that the very feminine Pearl has a massive, probably past-borderline obsession with Steve's mother, and because Stevonnie exists and that the gems don't have biological sex (sans Rose maybe) but they do actively identify as feminine, there's a lot of room for transgenderism. I don't see how them being sentient rocks discredits the show being LGBT friendly since that's kind of like saying that a man being in a relationship with a transmen isn't a homosexual one. The Gems act and look like women, including the ability to bear children.

 

[Pyramid Head]

If you will refer to my comment, I think you will find that I was referring to MAKO and Korra when I commented about the lack of chemistry. I totally buy Asami and Korra as friends, I just never saw their relationship as romantic. Attraction consists of more than fondness and good communication. My friends and I do almost everything you just described; we literally fly across the country to spend time together. Just because you enjoy someone's company doesn't mean you're attracted to them.

Honesty and trust are conducive to ANY relationship with another human being.

That one was kind of hard to make obvious. The only hints they got past the radar was them complimenting each other and Korra blushing in response in season four, and there may have been a moment in season three where Korra was staring at Asami's ass. Less could have been more in making the attraction apparent, but... yeah, you're right that they were too light with it.

Zelda Williams? *Googling*. HOLY SHIT, I NEVER KNEW THAT! 0_o

Henry Rollins was also the voice of Zaheer, Lisa Edlestein of House M.D fame was Kya, and J.K Simmons who needs no introduction was Tenzin. They managed to get an all star cast for Legend of Korra. Another funny bit of trivia? Asami's voice was Princess Yue in the Shyamalan abomination The Last Airbender, and in addition to redeeming herself to the Avatar franchise, she also went on to get work with Spielberg.

And the friendship, more or less, was natural and worked in favor of the story; the problem is, if it wasn't for that last shot, the concept of them as a couple would never have crossed my mind. It wasn't necessary and I found it contrived, for all the reasons stated above.

If they were really committed to the idea of just "Letting it show", why was it necessary for them to confirm it in the press? Why did the romance even have to be brought up? If the whole point was just to illustrate two people who cared about and trusted each other, why was romance even worked into the equation?

Actually there is a legitimate reason for why they had to just come out and say it. Bryke had a reputation for trolling the fans. They intentionally put a lot of Zutara teases in even though Katara and Aang were the official couple in Avatar: The Last Airbender, some think Mako and Korra was more Zutara by proxy, and they knew that even if they could get Korra and Asami to make out on screen, there would STILL be debate among fans.

Would Lord of the Rings have been improved if, as Frodo and Sam were laying exhausted on the side of an erupting Mount Doom, Sam leaned over and passionately kissed him?

Fuck no. After the shit he pulled in Sin City, NO Elijah Wood character deserves romance.
Besides, it wouldn't work. They shoehorned in a couple of mentions of someone Sam had a crush on as minor reminders that Rudy wasn't gay.
Now Gimli and Legolas? Maybe as a one-sided thing with Legolas wanting to brush Gimli's beard.

See, to my mind, there is a tangible and intuitively recognized difference between friendship and romance, and if you want to create an involving and meaningful romance in fiction, you have to treat the two kinds of relationships differently.

Not TOO differently. If things are overblown like they were with Katara and Aang, it can get to be saccharine. And worse, when people are afraid to let one transition into the other, you get shit like Disney and Twilight which completely fail to establish chemistry to begin with. Could Korrasami have been handled better if they had more time and looser rules? Yes. Was it the wrong way to do things? No.

 

[sumanoskae]

Sure. Plenty of male/female romances are just as forced, and everything I'm saying applies equally to them. I thought Mako and Korra's relationship was forced; if they were real people, I'd have pegged them as potential fuck buddies and nothing more.

I'm sure that some people reacted out of closeted homophobia; that's just a statistical probability. But I think there are also unique circumstances at play here.

First of all, the suggestion of romance literally happened at the very last few frames of the show; that's some next level asspulling.

Secondly, the show itself was ambiguous enough that lots of people were still not sure if the subtext was romantic when it was over; the creator actually had to confirm it via the press.

I get that they might have had it all planned in their heads, but from the outside, I can see why some people could think it was pandering fan service, or some kind of publicity stunt.

I disagree; I think it's just plain old sub-par writing, but I understand the argument.

You've made a fair case. Just to clarify, my point was not solely about closeted homophobia (though partly); I was also making the case that people may be holding gay relationships to a higher standard, without intending to do so, which may be due to a host of reasons aside from homophobia (including a frustrated wish to see better-written ones).

Just clarifying to make sure you didn't think I was being unduly harsh.

I... did not consider that possibility; it's a good point. Perhaps we as a culture need to be more wary of looking a gift horse in the mouth, so to speak.

 

[sumanoskae]

Not TOO differently. If things are overblown like they were with Katara and Aang, it can get to be saccharine. And worse, when people are afraid to let one transition into the other, you get shit like Disney and Twilight which completely fail to establish chemistry to begin with. Could Korrasami have been handled better if they had more time and looser rules? Yes. Was it the wrong way to do things? No.

My problem on a conceptual level with the handling of the relationship is that it feels more like you're watching a courtship from afar, instead of being personally involved. Protagonists are typically audience inserts to some degree, and the fact that the series conditions a cold reaction to what is supposed to be becoming one the most important things in Korra's life has a strange alienating effect.

Even if I look at the few hints that are dropped with confirmation bias, I get no information about the unique nature of the relationship or exactly how close these two are becoming. I can just infer that they MIGHT be into each other on a basic level.

Twatlight doesn't fall flat due to lack of subtly; subtly is not synonymous with depth or character development. You could have dropped all the obtuse hints that Shovel Face and Paper Bag wanted to jump bones you wanted; they have no chemistry because they have no character.

I've never been in love, but I hear it does a number on your fuckin' heartstrings. It's not something you sort of take notice of in the background. Subtly is appropriate in some situations; IMHO, this was not one of them.

Given how little I was emotionally involved with the main cast of Legend of Korra on the whole, some blistering romantic tension might have been a welcome addition.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Haven't watched either but it sounds like Korra's (the show's) thing was more baity than substantial.