Libyan woman who claimed rape release, is prostititute? o.O?

Bara_no_Hime

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emeraldrafael said:
-No one can verify (I'll give you that one, thats a coverup, maybe)
-Society dictates she has no say, and the fact that she decided to burst into a news conference is suspicious
-Show wont follow up with examination.
So, because she won't let some OTHER men poke her down there, she's lying?

emeraldrafael said:
Stop looking at this from the western perspective, if you do, you're imposing bias and western rule on the country.
No. I won't stop looking at this from a western perspective. I am a westerner. I live in the west. And I find it offensive when a woman is raped and people ask if she has the right to complain about it. I don't care where you live, rape is never okay.

emeraldrafael said:
And I never said she deserved it, but how reputable and in a job profession if she can complain about honor, when her job details she gave that up.
Honor is defined by an individual. She obviously feels that she has honor. Neither you, nor her society, have a right to deny her what she believes to be true.

emeraldrafael said:
But I dont want to see a war start with this woman as the poster child, watch friends who would most certainly have relatives go into that country and die only to later find out she was wrong, and martyrdom was for nothing.
So, if she's a prostitute, she's nothing? If a prostitute is abused, it isn't worth sending her help? If she was a virgin, would she be worth starting a war over? What about a newly wed? If you think her job affects whether or not we should go to war over this, then tell me how many sex partner's allowed before she's no longer worth anything? Seriously, I want to know the number.

Besides, when you start talking about her being a poster child for our war, then you're talking about our Western society, and not the one she came from. You've just proven your own argument wrong - because if she's worth going to war over in our society, then it doesn't matter what her society says because it's our western society that would be going to war.
 

Ldude893

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The last organization I'd ever trust on this matter is the Libyan government and their state-controlled media.
 

Angerwing

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Bara_no_Hime said:
emeraldrafael said:
And thats how honor is judged there?
Are you telling me, or asking me a question?

emeraldrafael said:
When you judge honor, you judge on society. So tell me where I'm wrong, when I say she loses the right to talk about honor when SOCIETY judges honor by virginity?
You asked if she had the right. She certainly has the right - she didn't choose to be raped, pissed, and crapped on (seriously, ick).

Also, I questioned if YOU could say that being a prostitute said she had no honor. She certainly believes she has honor - who are you to say she doesn't?

You seem awfully keen on this idea that she somehow deserved this. I remain offended and shocked that you would even ask such a thing. Does she have a right to be upset about being raped? Seriously? It disgusts me that you can even ask that question.
Quoted for fucking truth.

What the hell OP? What kind of bizarre logic was running through your head when you didn't think she had a right to complain about rape?

Seriously?!
 

Nova Helix

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emeraldrafael said:
(EDIT)*Should probably add this. Does she have the right to complain about rape and honor if she's a prostitute?
WTF? How is that even up for discussion? Rape is rape, there is no "asking for it" and it doesn't matter what you do for money.
 

emeraldrafael

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Bara_no_Hime said:
So, because she won't let some OTHER men poke her down there, she's lying?

There's a difference between a medical examinationa nd a rape. If you cant distinguish the two, then we'll just have ot stop, cause theres no way we can argue on an equal level.

No. I won't stop looking at this from a western perspective. I am a westerner. I live in the west. And I find it offensive when a woman is raped and people ask if she has the right to complain about it. I don't care where you live, rape is never okay.

I live in the West too. But I see cultural differences. Thats why I dont see anything wrong in the way Japanese treat non japanese, when a country's main dish is what you call a pet, or when someone has a caste system. Its something that happens there, it sucks, but thats society. Who are we to say it should be changed? And again, she's saying she is raped, but she has no proof. Its largely hersay.

Honor is defined by an individual. She obviously feels that she has honor. Neither you, nor her society, have a right to deny her what she believes to be true.

Perhaps not, but if society will judge her so, then you must look at it like that. Again, this is East meeting West, and to act on this from the western perspective is to turn society upside down. So lets have more death from this. Because we hold prostitutes int he west to SUCH a HIGH regard, dont we?

So, if she's a prostitute, she's nothing? If a prostitute is abused, it isn't worth sending her help? If she was a virgin, would she be worth starting a war over? What about a newly wed? If you think her job affects whether or not we should go to war over this, then tell me how many sex partner's allowed before she's no longer worth anything? Seriously, I want to know the number.

Besides, when you start talking about her being a poster child for our war, then you're talking about our Western society, and not the one she came from. You've just proven your own argument wrong - because if she's worth going to war over in our society, then it doesn't matter what her society says because it's our western society that would be going to war.
If its not true she was raped, then This IS nothing, and I would look down more on her for playing the world to change the country, when the country should be changing not relying on the foreign aide to take a man away and then leave a power vacuum. This whole mess started cause foreign aide jumped into to change.

And of course, you have ot mention it from the western side for that. If I told you from there portion of the world, then they wouldnt care. The guy (although he comes from the gov) that lives in that country said that she had betrayed what their society treats as honor. I tend to think he knows a bit more about his corner of the world then you are I.


And personally to me, if you've had 1000 sex partners, I tend to think that your words on honor (which in a small part equals or includes dignity) should be taken with something of a grain of salt. There are more honorable things that you can do then selling your body. But then again, thats just me, and I'm sure if you said someone had a 1000 sexual partners, then they would get some looks and the brush off, or is that not true?
 

JohnnyDelRay

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There's a bit too much political implication here to see between the lines and clearly see who's lying. Of course everyone here agrees that rape is still rape, no matter what your profession is, that's like a black & white case with, probably 90% or more of the people on this site. What people are missing though, is the whole "idea" of rape in these cultures.

Remember, if a woman is raped, it's almost always "her" fault, hence the people accusing her of slander and such, and being violent towards her and accusing of treachery. I know it's fucked up, but that's probably the reason why her case wasn't received in a way it would be anywhere else in the country - the fingers are pointed at her, even more so the fact that she's a prostitute, as irrelevant and unrelated as that is.

Yes, there's also the slight possibility that she has been around with all those soldiers and is looking to tarnish that administration's reputation, but like I said, there are too many political implications to arrive at any clear answer. Fucking soldiers raping civilians though, I thought our human race was above that by now =( too much of that shit went down in the past.
 

fulano

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emeraldrafael said:
Yeah... Not sure what to say about it. I guess if its true, does a Prostitute get the right to complain about rape, but thats the only thing I can say.* With her not taking a medical test, it raises suspicion.

So... thoughs?

(EDIT)*Should probably add this. Does she have the right to complain about rape and honor if she's a prostitute?
Let us assume the woman is a prostitute...and so what?

Sometimes I wonder what is wrong with people that they bold facedly comoe out with such garbage arguments.
 

RedEyesBlackGamer

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Imperator_DK said:
Why would rape be a less serious offence against a prostitute?

And who would trust the validity of information from the current Libyan administration, which dragged her off in the first place?

EDIT:

As far as I can see, it's the government representative who complain about the family honour of the attackers, saying that it's against Libyan custom (presumably the clan system) that she publicly named them.

Though I find a notion that prostitutes should automatically be without entitlement to "honour" to be utterly despicable. Certainly anyone who'd deny the worth of others merely because of their harmless choices in life - perhaps even made in dire circumstances - are the lowest creatures of all; what honour have they?
This. What kind of twisted sense of "honor" doesn't let you name your attackers? This is sickening.
 

MasterChief892039

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Prostitutes can be raped, simple as. Also, I fail to see the comparison between her "line of work" and having (potentially) 15 men force themselves on her. The kind of damage that would do to a person's genitalia would be irreparable and excruciatingly painful (without even taking into account the mental damage).

Anyone else suspicious that they may have just called her a prostitute so they could get away with their crime?
 

StBishop

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emeraldrafael said:
Yeah... Not sure what to say about it. I guess if its true, does a Prostitute get the right to complain about rape, but thats the only thing I can say.* With her not taking a medical test, it raises suspicion.

So... thoughs?

(EDIT)*Should probably add this. Does she have the right to complain about rape and honor if she's a prostitute?
What the fuck dude? Yes.

Just because they get paid to do something doesn't mean you can force them to do it.

Does someone who works on a farm have the right to being forced into slavery to do the exact same thing under horrible conditions?

Does a person who get's married have the right to complain about being abducted and forced to marry someone they hate?

That logic is horrible and it makes me wonder why you have (what seems like) a loathing of prostitutes, or a severe underestimation of the enormity of rape.

Edit: want to clarify the marriage one. Consenting to do something with one person (or even a million people) doesn't imply consent with everyone.
 

Valanthe

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What her proffession is or isn't is irrelevent. What is interesting is that she refused a medical examination, raises some doubts on the validity of her story.

That being said, cases of women who've been legitimately raped refusing medical exams is not uncommon, we don't know the full story, and thanks to sensationalism in the news, likely never will. Perhaps the doctors/nurses made her feel uncomfortable, perhaps she still felt threatened, we'll likely never know.

In short: If she was raped, then yes she has every right to complain about it.
 

Therumancer

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Imperator_DK said:
Why would rape be a less serious offence against a prostitute?

And who would trust the validity of information from the current Libyan administration, which dragged her off in the first place?

EDIT:

As far as I can see, it's the government representative who complain about the family honour of the attackers, saying that it's against Libyan custom (presumably the clan system) that she publicly named them.

Though I find a notion that prostitutes should automatically be without entitlement to "honour" to be utterly despicable. Certainly anyone who'd deny the worth of others merely because of their harmless choices in life - perhaps even made in dire circumstances - are the lowest creatures of all; what honour have they?
Actually I can see their point to some extent. The nature of the sex trade is one where agreements are typically made verbally, and it can be difficult to say what someone agreed to or accepted money for, especially after the fact.

Some girl accepts money from a kinko, or to be entertainment at a party, and some kind of disagreement arises or she sees an angle on it, it's very easy for her to claim she was raped even if she wasn't. The situation can also become quite interesting when your dealing with things like bondage, S&M, or BDSM (or any variation thereof), if someone accepts money to be tied up and tortured as a matter of routine, it does put a reasonable doubt on any claims they might make on having been molested. Such cases rapidly coming down to a he-said, she-said type arguement without any real hope of resolution especially if what happened was in private as most sexually oriented stuff tends to be.

Honestly, this is a big part of why I don't support legalized protitution. Most people think in terms of "well it's her body, she can do with it what she wants" but don't tend to think in terms of the other kinds of issues that go along with it. Not allowing prostitution tends to avoid having to try and deal with these kinds of things, or spend tons of money in the legal system bringing cases to trial that are in many cases going to be almost impossible to resolve accuratly.

In this paticular case, I do notice that she went to the US media. The US being well known for it's civil liberties policies, and also we made a big deal about wanting to bring women's rights to The Middle East even if we ultimatly failed. Her claims could simply be an attempt to get five minutes of fame, and perhaps if she becomes well known and capture's the public eye, it will make it easier for her to obtain immigration. From the way it sounds, it doesn't seem like she even really went to the authorities. Even if her problem was with the authorities there is STILL a chain of command she could move up to make a complaint.

What's more, as much as I dislike Libya, they also have a point about naming names in the media that way. In the US we very much have an innocent until proven guilty policy, and when accusations are made in most cases the authorities DO make an effort to protect the identities of the accused, especially when nothing is yet known. This is why in many cases you hear "the police are interrogating suspects" or "have suspects in custody" without any names being mentioned if it can be avoided. I'm sure things are differant down there on a lot of levels, but that's still kind of a common sense thing, above and beyond any tribal issues. Just being accused of rape, even if it's totally false, is going to put a public stain on someone that is never going to fully go away.

Sounds like a messed up situation, so all I can say is that we'll see what happens. If the reporters found her it would be one thing, but with her approaching them it gives me the wrong vibe for some reason.

Besides, as "unfair" as it might be, just because she got tied up and had 15 guys have sex with her along with water sports and fecaphillia does not mean it's rape. That's a fairly typical "extreme gang bang" situation and you find women who get paid to do that kind of thing on video all the time. If she's known to be a professional, and do that kind of thing, it's not so much making her "sub human" to treat such claims with doubt, as simply applying common sense, especially when thre is something (media attention) to be gained.

But then again, as I said, I prefer not to go there, which is why I prefer not to support the idea of legalized prostitution, the adult film industry can be considered similar, but I think that has enough eyes on it (one way or another) and enough differances where it doesn't raise quite the same questions in of itself. Largely because if a "porn star" is doing something like this it's typically under contract and documented, not typically the result of some word of mouth/handshake agreement in a bar or on a street corner, or at least not to my knowlege, I'm hardly an expert. Any deals that might be being cut under the table though, well that's differant, and aren't protected the way "art films" are, which to my way of thinking is a good thing.
 

StBishop

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emeraldrafael said:
Maybe it's worth re-editing your OP to properly explain your viewpoint.

from what I've seen you actually aren't asking if she has a right to complain, and you're mostly worried that she's made the whole thing up.
I can understand that you're sceptical because she can't/won't/hasn't given any evidence to back up her claim but implying that a prostitute deserves rape (which your OP did) is fucking disgusting.
There's no other way to describe it, humans always deserve rights.

I would probably put something to the effect of, "This woman can't/won't/hasn't given evidence and I'm concerned that a war will start, what if she's working for the rebels to start a war?"

It just seems in the OP that you're saying this.

"She's a prostitute therefore, can't be raped. She's had sex with a lot of people, this makes her dishonourable."

Which is rubbing people up the wrong way.
You need to be careful what you say about rape because it's a really horrible thing, and for plenty of people it's a reality not just some far off construct that happens to other people.

Also, I think that you might want to consider that regardless of how a nation perceives honour generally, an individual can set their own standard, perhaps her's was "No one ever shat on me, or pissed on me, or degraded me, or I've never been in a 16 way, or it's always been 'clean sex'" fill in what ever definition you want for clean sex as I don't mean to imply anything is inherently unclean. Maybe she just means that she's never been raped.

Just like you're saying that we don't understand how her country defines honour, I'm saying is, we don't know how she defines honour and that she obviously feels like her honour has been ruined.

I think it's not dishonourable to lie to a stranger, but I believe it's dishonourable to steal from a stranger. Different people will disagree with that and that's ok.
 

Bara_no_Hime

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emeraldrafael said:
And again, she's saying she is raped, but she has no proof. Its largely hersay.

Perhaps not, but if society will judge her so, then you must look at it like that. Again, this is East meeting West, and to act on this from the western perspective is to turn society upside down.
What is your obsession with this east/west thing? Why did you bring up Japan - it has nothing at all to do with this.

It sounds to me like what you really want to make a thread about is western interference in the world. If so, fine, make a thread about that - just don't accuse women of pretending to be raped, or claim that prostitutes don't have a right to be upset about rape. Pretty much everyone who's posted here says you're offensive for even asking that question.

emeraldrafael said:
The guy (although he comes from the gov) that lives in that country said that she had betrayed what their society treats as honor. I tend to think he knows a bit more about his corner of the world then you are I.
Are you even paying attention? He said that about her revealing the names of those that raped her.

emeraldrafael said:
And personally to me, if you've had 1000 sex partners, I tend to think that your words on honor (which in a small part equals or includes dignity) should be taken with something of a grain of salt. There are more honorable things that you can do then selling your body. But then again, thats just me, and I'm sure if you said someone had a 1000 sexual partners, then they would get some looks and the brush off, or is that not true?
Good for you? Although I'd bet you wouldn't say that about men who've had lots of sex partners. But even if you would, that's your opinion. Not society, east or west, but you personally. If you're all about not imposing "wester" views on people, then why impose your personal views on them?

Anyway, I'm done. As far as I'm concerned, this discussion is over.

Everyone - the OP is clearly trolling. I say ignore him.
 

Dags90

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ravensheart18 said:
Yeah, I was actually thinking of that as a possible alternative, but since it was a business transaction the breach of contract seemed correct. Also fraud requires an element of provable deception in order to create a gain (eg-someone pretending to be a star in order to get someone to sleep with them who otherwise wouldn't sleep with them). Just not paying isn't enough to trigger fraud in a normal case. So unless that fraud statute is substantially different, it wouldn't seem to qualify as fraud.
I don't see how obtaining consent by pretending that you're going to pay is substantially different from pretending to be a celebrity or someone's twin brother.

Of course, if TV has taught me anything about prostitution it's "Always get the money upfront".
 

Littlee300

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Imperator_DK said:
liquidangry said:
Imperator_DK said:
Why would rape be a less serious offence against a prostitute?
Um, duh. You forfeit all human rights when you become a ho. Didn't you read the fine print in my pimptract?
Must have missed that particular passage, all the bling bling kind of blinded me.

Littlee300 said:
Imperator_DK said:
Why would rape be a less serious offence against a prostitute?
Now it is shoplifting instead of rape.
Good luck finding a judge who'll agree to that legal qualification...

Beating up a boxer outside the ring is violence too, not a free surprise training session.
It is more like hiring a guy to fight the boxer and watching and it is not heavily watched like boxing normally is along with weight restrictions which will not be including in hiring a guy to fight the boxer. Boxing guarantees physical damage later in life unlike prostitution.

Why am I defending a joke...
 

ZydrateDealer

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emeraldrafael said:
ZydrateDealer said:
emeraldrafael said:
Does she have the right to complain about rape and honor if she's a prostitute?
Yes...what did you think it was a sketchy morally grey area? If they abused her in this terrible way (not unlikely) then they should be punished regardless of her profession. Remember we all pay for sex at least hookers are honest about the price...that said she may not even be a prostitute you see in politics they have these things called smear campaigns, or to the layman they're making her seem dishonest and wrong in order to justify their acts...if said acts occurred.
My hang up is on the Honor part of society (I know the west wants to change the world, but really, things like societal views should be left alone), and mainly how she refuses to have it backed up.

I know the Libyan Government is corrupt and in need of change at the moment, I really do. But its these sorta things that justify war, because then its fighting for the people, where now its fighting for the idea of freedom.
What? It's like you had another conversation entirely...so are you suggesting that we shouldn't see this as a travesty if she's a hooker? No one ever mentioned changing societal views, but since you mention it yes societal views should be changed if they're wrong. Like that whole hookers are dirty things that have no honour and deserve bad things to happen to them...it's just not true.