Lionhead: "Piracy these days on PC is probably less problematic than second-hand sales on the Xbox"

[peter-lavalle]

Pirated games suck because the developer doesn't get paid for their work (beyond the initial copy)

Used games suck because the developer doesn't get paid for their work (beyond the initial copy)

One of these is illegal

One of these involves a customer who is willing to pay for the game, but not willing to pay the developer

*EDIT* Why is running a retail shop part of the games industry? Is the car boot sale around the corner part of the clothes and film industries?

 

[Ilikemilkshake]

No, because the former isn't illegal.

So if they made murder legal, whats worse murder or pirating? (/end obvious hyperbole)

Anyway, I still think buying used and pirating is bad, but i actually think buying used results in more money lost for the devs, most pirates probably wouldnt have bought the game anyway, not an excuse, just saying 1 download of a game isnt necessarily a lost sale.

Whereas buying used, the devs get no money, but at least some money is going back into the industry, even if its not to the people who deserve it.

 

[Ranorak]

Not to mention, If I sold a video game, chances are pretty big I'd buy a new one with that money.

This is something the game industry tends to forget when they ***** and moan about 2nd hand sales - a lot of games are sold to partially fund new purchases. If they start slapping 2nd hand sales on the head too hard they might get something of an unwanted follow on from it.

Self-entitled video game publicer;
"God damn it, they sold another copy of Fable on the second hand market!"
Yes, but you see, he bought a copy of Fallout 3 for it. That's good right?
"NO! that's not MY company's product! I want the money, me me me!"

What is it about gaming and self-entitlness.
It's not just the players it seems.

 

[Fabo Craven]

"It's just a depressing situation we're in that people don't think it's worth spending money on computer games," said West. "What they're doing is making sure there are fewer games coming out in the future and more people out of work, which is a terrible thing.

Am I the only one who is confused by these 2 lines?

How can piracy effect sales, if people won't pay in the first place?

This sounds like he is trying to blame piracy for the terrible bland games this industry is plagued with now. If consumers cannot tell what is different about your game from the multitudes of others, thye won't be interested.

Which is why demos were so nice, since i have an older computer, I'm not always willing to plop down 30-40$ on some game.If it doesnt work then im outta luck, so very few companies now get any consideration from me.

 

[spartan231490]

No, because the former isn't illegal.

No, because the former isn't stealing. Is it worse for the industry? I don't think so, used game sales have been around since the NES, the industry survived, but I don't know for sure, I'm not in the industry. But in general no, used games sales are legal, and moral, piracy is neither of these things.

Pirated games suck because the developer doesn't get paid for their work (beyond the initial copy)

Used games suck because the developer doesn't get paid for their work (beyond the initial copy)

One of these is illegal

One of these involves a customer who is willing to pay for the game, but not willing to pay the developer

Also remember that in used game sales, only one person can own the game at once, the developers still get paid once for every person currently owning the game. With piracy, that is completely untrue. One guy can buy it, crack the code, and give it to hundreds or thousands of people.

 

[Ranorak]

I do wonder, how do they go about and calculate this anyway?
Do they honestly think that every time someone bought a second hand game, it's a missed sale for them?
Do they really think that if I couldn't get that second hand copy for 10 euro, I just buy the original for 60?

I always wondered how they calculated losses of piracy as well.
You can't make these kind of predictions, Lionhead.

If I saw Fable 2 and 3 for 10 euro in the second hand part of the store, I'd buy them. But no way in hell I'm going to pay 28 euro's for fable 3. I'm just not interested in that game enough to pay that.

 

[philcelery]

"in the long-run"

I wonder what they mean by this.

 

[Ranorak]

There is of course a very simple solution to this.
Start your own second hand (web) store for your games.

No more lost profits.

 

[Ferrious]

Worse than piracy / on par with piracy? Morally, no, it's not. Financially, maybe.

Personally I try to avoid buying second-hand when I can, I've no desire to prop-up unprofitable retailers like Game when it's not helping the people I actually want to support. But until the law changes, you own that disk, you're free to sell it to any individual/organisation you like - implicitly transferring the license to the software on it.

On top of that, most people buying second-hand don't even realise that it's an issue for the developers. No pirate can honestly make that claim.

 

[Dense_Electric]

A surprisingly large number of people in here seem to be under the impression that legality and morality are somehow one in the same... I've got news for you guys, the law is not the supreme authority of right and wrong, whatever it may think of itself. You know that appealing to legality is a recognized logical fallacy, yes? Look it up. (And before some idiot calls me on it, no, I'm not arguing that piracy is morally justified. Just that you should stop treating a country's laws as if it were the supreme word of the Lord God Almighty).

And no, used game sales are no better than piracy as far as the developers go. If one person buys a game, then another person pirates it, the developer is only seeing money from one of those two people. Now if one person buys a game, then another person buys their copy, the developer is still only seeing money from one of those two people. Either way they're only getting 50% of what they should be getting. From the standpoint of getting money to the people who created the game, neither is inherently worse than the other.

Now of course there may be (and probably are) more people buying used games than pirating them, and by that logic used sales probably do hurt developers more than piracy.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

I do wonder, how do they go about and calculate this anyway?

A scientific method known as 'numeric rectal extraction'.

Do they honestly think that every time someone bought a second hand game, it's a missed sale for them?

No but they're hoping that if they say it repeatedly enough gullible people will start to believe it.

Do they really think that if I couldn't get that second hand copy for 10 euro, I just buy the original for 60?

No, but they hope to guilt some people into doing just that.

I always wondered how they calculated losses of piracy as well.

Oh, they count the number of times all the various torrents they can find for an IP have been started (not completed because that's always a smaller number) and count each time as a lost sale. Number of lost sales multiplied by the cash they make from an actual single unit sale to get 'estimated loss'.

 

[onilinksword]

To everyone who is saying "pirating is illegal thus worse than buying a second-hand game" let me direct you to Kohlberg's stages of moral development. To sum it up in this quick post, a lower "Conventional" level of thinking focuses on law and order or social norms rather than what is morally right or wrong. A higher "post-Conventional" level of thinking focuses more on universal ethical principles. Moral rights are more important than an unjust law.

Now, I am not defending pirating. I am pointing out a basic flaw in the logic that "because something is illegal, it is worse." Following that logic, it's worse for a woman to drive in a housecoat in California than owning a credit shark company that charges 35% compound interest. Makes perfect sense, right?

 

[Ilikemilkshake]

Most pirates probably wouldnt have bought the game anyway.

I really hate that argument. Although you stated you feel it isn't an excuse (and I agree completely) I disagree that most pirates wouldn't buy the game; if there was no way to pirate games or steal them or what have you, I'm willing to bet all those millions upon millions of people who pirate wouldn't drop the hobby. Sure, some people steal because they want something they can't afford, but the majority simply don't wanna pay.

Oh, and that 'I can't afford video games, they are so expensive' stuff is so transparent it's sad. You mean to tell me you can't save up $10 for a used game or something off Steam? Wanting something doesn't give you the right to steal it.

/rant

Sorry. That wasn't really aimed at you at all, but you accidentally knocked the valve off and it all came out, lol.

I know what you're saying, and i agree completely but its completely unrealistic to assume every download is a lost sale. Say im a pirate, and today i downloaded, Borderlands, Dragon age origins, Dragon age 2, mass effect, mass effect 2, left 4 dead, left 4 dead 2, portal, portal 2 and team fortress 2*

Now thats 10 games ive obtained illegally, but that doesnt necessarily mean 10 lost sales, in all likely hood, i would have only been able to afford 1, so thats 1 lost sale, and 9 other downloads.

Then say tomorrow i download another 10 games, i still cant afford them, but ive downloaded another 10 games, but its not lost sales because i couldnt buy them anyway.

Im not saying all downloads arent lost sales, im just saying in my opinion, i dont believe that every download could possibly be a lost sale (whereas buying used most definatly is)

* = Im not really a pirate, and i infact own all of those games legally

 

[lumenadducere]

There is of course a very simple solution to this.
Start your own second hand (web) store for your games.

No more lost profits.

I suspect that the costs of running a store would outweigh any potential profit they'd make off of participating in the used-game market themselves. Which really just makes me wonder just how much they're losing if the amount isn't enough to make them want to create such a store.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of either piracy or used game sales, but analysts enter very murky waters when they try and think about the number of people in those groups who would be customers. I think the used game market may be one such circumstance, although I'm sure there are smarter people than me who've looked at this stuff and said otherwise.

 

[Andrew_C]

I would like the people who think it is somehow morally wrong to buy second hand game to explain their reasoning, because I for one cannot see any logic to it. Is it morally wrong to buy a second hand car? To buy second hand clothes? To buy second hand books and DVDs?

 

[Frostbite3789]

I'm willing to bet someone will make the 'but someone purchased the copy I torrented' argument. 'Cause it holds so much water, lol.

Just a heads up, yo.

Just to play devil's advocate:

Someone purchased the second-hand copy you're buying. Y'know, the copy where neither the publisher nor the developer sees a cent of the sale on that game. In terms of what the developer sees, it really isn't that different. They just have to say stuff like this, for legal purposes.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Legally Piracy is worse. Personally I think second gaming leads to a higher loss in sales than piracy. Second gaming is more akin to console piracy where they go to a shop/guy to get it chipped then buy games off them. Still that is probably worse than the 2 of them. Anyway I think the online pass or something like pay an extra ?10 for the game and get ALL DLC free is probably the best way to "combat" second hand sales.

 

[Frostbite3789]

I'm willing to bet someone will make the 'but someone purchased the copy I torrented' argument. 'Cause it holds so much water, lol.

Just a heads up, yo.

Just to play devil's advocate:

Someone purchased the second-hand copy you're buying. Y'know, the copy where neither the publisher nor the developer sees a cent of the sale on that game. In terms of what the developer sees, it really isn't that different. They just have to say stuff like this, for legal purposes.

That isn't the point, though. Someone obtains an illegal copy of a game and then torrents it to millions of people. Second hand copies see a lot less exchange than that. And that is the point.

Millions? Really? That's especially ridiculous considering the company making this claim.

In all honesty, this is just Lionhead trying to rationalize why they've taken a dump on PC gaming over the last 5+ years.

The Movies had so much potential, but they just kinda stopped supporting it.

Fable: The Lost Chapters was a better version, so I'll give them that.

Fable II never made it to the PC.

Fable III is a year late, half-assed port, where they said a demo was coming out, then redacted that, because they knew it was a PoS.

Most people won't even think it's worth the hard drive space to torrent it, let alone the $50-$60 price tag.

This is just one big rationalization. "WE DON'T WANT TO DEVELOP FOR THE PC BECAUSE OF THOSE MEAN 'OLE PIRATES!" and as CD Projekt has proven, it's a load of bullcrap.

 

[tzimize]

No, because the former isn't illegal.

And we all know if it ain't illegal it can't be harmfull...

Both cases end up with the publisher geting nothing in return.

Actually, piracy can end up with the publisher getting money.

If you buy a game second hand, you sure as hell wont buy another copy if the game is good.

If you pirate it, you might buy it if its good.

So from an economical standpoint: Piracy is WAY better for publishers than second hand sales.

 

[Ranorak]

Legally Piracy is worse. Personally I think second gaming leads to a higher loss in sales than piracy. Second gaming is more akin to console piracy where they go to a shop/guy to get it chipped then buy games off them. Still that is probably worse than the 2 of them. Anyway I think the online pass or something like pay an extra ?10 for the game and get ALL DLC free is probably the best way to "combat" second hand sales.

No, the best way to combat second hhand games is just to make games I wouldn't WANT to sell.

I will never EVER sell my copy of Metroid Prime Trilogy.
Why not? Because it rocks.
I would never sell my copy of Oblivion or Morrowind either.

Make a good game, and people tend to keep it.
Spit out a basic RPG that lasts 10 hours with little to no additional content *coughfablecough* and sure, they sell it.