lock thread please

[CrystalShadow]

Still, here too, you get confusion. While maybe not technically a relationship in itself, fairly sure you can't be in a relationship while doing the 'freinds with benefits' stuff with someone else.
Because that's still cheating...

And even though 'friends with benefits' implies something less committed than being in a relationship with someone, I do wonder... Does it... Actually work on the level where it's OK to do that with multiple people at once?
I'm not entirely sure it does.

Gah! weird!

As I understand it, friends with benefits type relationships aren't exclusive at all. It's basically an agreement between two people that they can have sex no strings attached and avoid all that messy relationship stuff, until one of them finds somebody to become exclusive with (at which point it becomes cheating).

That being said, the reason why FWB relationships are difficult is because it needs to be a solid agreement between both parties and with an easy exit. Personal feelings, jealously, ext can't be involved and can't be allowed to develop. If one person has personal feelings and wants something more and the other just wants them as a FWB (is using them) and won't make that fact clear, that's a very jerky thing to do.

Furthermore, the difference between FWB and Polyamory is that in an FWB style relationship, you know the other person is potentially sleeping with more people than just you, but you don't know who those people are, also polyamory plays with the idea of being able to love more than one person while FWBs avoid "love" like the plague.

Ugh. Yeah... I don't know. I guess my confusion comes from precisely that... There are feelings involved (in what I've experienced anyway), and that makes the concept a little... Unstable.
Problem with having feelings for someone is you may find yourself going along with things that are probably a bad idea...
And whether you know the situation or not, it doesn't always change things...

I guess agreeing to something like that when both of you already know from the outset that there are feelings involved already, for at least one of you...
That's...

Um... Anyway, that's irrelevant, and kinda overly personal...
So I think I'll just shut up now. XD

 

[Tomeran]

Its difficult to put down a definate "yes or no" since this is highly dependant on local culture and what kind of "behaviour" and relationship norms are deemed acceptable. In more open-minded communities im sure cheating would be considered worse, but in communities where monogamy is the only acceptable way and even homosexual relationships are spat upon? There "deviant behaviour", which polyamory would surely be branded as, would essentially paint the involved people as the equilent to the devil incarnate and be considered MUCH worse then cheating. Not that cheating would ever be considered a good thing, but in some places of the world being "different" is just considered way worse then being a lier and being unfaithful. Perhaps mostly because people are used to lies and deceit, whereas "different things" catches them offguard and causes them to be way more aggressive with their judgements.


If we had to stick to a single geographical location for this debate I suppose I'll use where im from: Sweden. And here we're generally quite open about this kind of thing. I -think- most people would say cheating would be worse here. But then of course wether everyone actually meant that...that's up for debate.

 

[MonsterCrit]

It is more socially acceptable to cheat than to be polyamorous. Not for the reasons most might think. Human reasoning can be surprisingly petty.

When someone cheats you get to count that as them doing the wrong thing and getting to feel morally smug and superior to them. However with polyamory. The person doesn't feely like they're breaking the rule.. in fact they make you feel like the idiot. Kinda like this.

Person A: "You slept with someone other than your chosen SO. Therefore you are wrong and I am better than you.

Person B: Wait. You only have One chosen SO you have sex with? What are you stupid?

For person A it's like coming to the realization that while you agonozed over the choice of cake , pie or ice cream, someone else realized they could very easily just put all three in their plate.

If there's one thing humans hate it's the idea that somewhere someone is getting ahead of them.. Many would rather ear $50,000 a year being the highest paid person in their department than $250,000 a year being the lowest paid person in their department.

 

[Something Amyss]

Problem with having feelings for someone is you may find yourself going along with things that are probably a bad idea...

Unfortunately, that's every relationship ever. Or at least, any meaningful one, since the only way to avoid it is to go into a relationship without feelings.

This word, "snowflake", I feel like it pops up in almost every. single. LGBT+. discussion aside from homosexuality[footnote]asexuality, bisexuality, polyamory, trans, pansexuality, you name it[/footnote], and the person stating such never presents reasoning for it. With all due respect, what is your reasoning? Why do you feel this way?

Honestly, if the "special snowflake" diction had existed in the 50s or 60s, we'd have seen it with homosexuality, too.

"You are different in ways I don't understand. Therefore you are *trying* to be different."

That's the general gist of any "special snowflake" argument I've ever seen.

I have actually given thought about what I'd do if I had ever been cheated on, while it might be easy for me to say immediately "dealbreaker!" my father once cheated on my mother and she took him back and if she hadn't done that, I wouldn't exist today, also they have been happily married ever since.

It does seem really easy on paper, but when you're cheated on in the real world, there's still an emotional involvement that's hard to get over. I've been cheated on several times. It does become a lot harder to say "no, fuck you, get out of my life" in the real world.

Probably doesn't hurt that I've been tempted to cheat before. Not my proudest moment, but I do understand where it comes from. Or, where it can come from. I got super infatuated with someone who really seemed just plain amazing, and, you know, it's that emotional involvement thing. There's a line, I forget where from, that says something like "once your heart's involved, it all comes out idiot."

I didn't set out to cheat on someone I love. I'd like to think the same is true of the people who have cheated on me (except this one girl, but that's a story for another day). I'm pretty sure the problem comes in that, as human beings, we're not quite as rational as we'd like to think.

 

[zumbledum]

i dont think its a matter of social acceptance, i think the general public view cheating and being polyamourous to be be more or less the same thing. i would expect the reason polyamourous relations are so fewer is simply because its a rather hard thing to do its been my experience very few people actually have the mental capacity for it.

 

[Coruptin]

People are less accepting of polyamory because it's dishonest. Cheaters at least know that what they do is wrong. They know and accept to a certain degree that they are horrible, horrible people.
A polyamorist is just a cheater who tries to justify their actions. They hijack the language of actual civil rights movements. It's repulsive.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

People are less accepting of polyamory because it's dishonest. Cheaters at least know that what they do is wrong. They know and accept to a certain degree that they are horrible, horrible people.
A polyamorist is just a cheater who tries to justify their actions. They hijack the language of actual civil rights movements. It's repulsive.

How is polyamory dishonest if they've made it clear from the beginning and all people involved consent to it?

 

[chikusho]

I for one would rather be friends with a cheater and a polygamist than a judger.
Yet judging and putting ones nose into the private business of others is perfectly acceptable.
That just goes to show that humanity as a whole has really messed up priorities.

 

[Vorlayn]

I think cheating is one of the lowest things you can do. If you are unhappy in a relationship, have the balls to break up with your partner, continue as friends or explore polyamory(and let them do it too). Don't go behind your partner's back, violate their trust massively, and risking both your and their health(STD's). And that's not even counting the possible result: kids....there it gets even nastier.
In a polyamorous relationship, nobody gets hurt (at least, not by definition).
With cheating, you can effectively kill your partner (via an STD), give them longterm medical problems, drain them financially by having them raise kids that aren't theirs, give them huge psychological trauma when they find out...So no, cheating should not ever be as acceptable as polyamory.

 

[Lord Garnaat]

I dislike the idea of polyamory. However, I do not believe that it is intrinsically and universally wrong. Infidelity, on the other hand, is, and what's more it seems to me that society at large agrees. For most, I think, the typical reaction to polyamory is that it is unnatural, odd, or abnormal, whereas the typical reaction to being unfaithful is instant condemnation most of the time. There are obviously exceptions either way, but the general responses seem consistent to me.

People who advocate tolerating polyamory are understandable, I think. Marriage is an important part of life, and it isn't surprising that people react to it in different ways. Those who apologize for infidelity, however, are wrong, just like infidelity is wrong. There is no reasonable, conceivable, imaginable scenario in which cheating on someone is "right" or in the least bit justified. People who do it because they're unhappy, or "in love" with someone else, or for any other litany of other reasons might have understandable motives, but never excusable ones. Adultery isn't just dishonest for breaking a promise, or a sign of weakness for being incapable of controlling yourself, but it is utterly, unnecessarily cruel. There is no situation in which someone "has" to cheat: doing so is just a selfish indulgence, putting personal pleasure above obligation, and hurting other people for no better reason than because you can. It is evil, and those who argue otherwise are imbeciles.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I don't think there's anything wrong with making a judgement based on what you do know, with the caveat "opinions subject to change upon newer information."

I don't see very many people applying said caveat, nor actively seeking newer information. The vast majority of opinions are formed based on nothing (or better yet, hearsay), and thanks to irrational primacy tend to remain cast in iron even when new information IS presented. This is a pretty easy phenomenon to observe in our modern era of social media lynchings. "This person made an off-color remark on Twitter...that's all the information I'll ever need!".

For some it is, for some that's the only way they can comfortably rationalise the situation.

Alright, fair enough.

That's too much like saying "well some rape victims would be well served reviewing why they got drunk and went back to the home of a stranger" for my liking.

Oh ho ho, stop the presses, those statements are not even in the same ballpark. Cheating is not a crime. It's part of why I shied away from the "stealing" analogy. Someone's fidelity is not anyone's property.

They are victims.

In a very broad sense of the term, yes. You could also be a victim of bad service at a restaurant, or the victim of an insensitive remark, or the victim of bad urban planning. All of these things are unpleasant, none of them are crimes. That might seem like a facile distinction, but when the previous statement involves a comparison to RAPE, it's one I think is important to establish.

Taking that step back an looking for potential faults with themselves that could have contributed to the partner wanting to cheat might be admirable, but it would be cruel for us to expect it as a standard. The same cruelty would apply to expecting them to forgive or be understanding of their cheating partner.

I would certainly never expect nor demand either of those things from anyone, even a close friend. I just think it's a far more positive and constructive tact than "I'm a victim of a monster, woe is me", because rare is the romantic relationship that collapses solely due to the trespasses of a single participant.

Maybe, maybe not. There's nothing about condemning those that have harmed us that is mutually exclusive to self analysis and growth.

I suppose it would depend on the situation in question.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

So in other words you just feel like suddenly imposing a burden on me, even though I was clear about how I was supporting it? I'm guessing that's a burden that only applies to you when you feel like it though, right?

Burden of proof (or onus probandi in Latin) is the obligation that somebody presenting a new or remarkable idea has to provide evidence to support it when asked.

Mars is referring to standard debating decorum, wherein you provide substantiation when you make claims. For example, you made the claim:

For every touching and conflicted story like the one you told, there are a million one night stands.

I asked for substantiation, and you chose instead to hand-wave the request (presumably because you were aware it was hyperbolic and simply chose not to address that) and sidebar into the question of prostitution, which is where we stopped talking and Mars and you took up, with Mars asking you for substantiation on THOSE claims.

You're certainly not required to substantiate the claims you make on internet message boards, this is not a formal debate, you are not in a court of law, no one is scoring you. By the same token, if you just manifest random statistics to support your position out of whole cloth, you cannot imagine anyone is going to put much stock in your arguments (save those already inclined to agree with them). Your answer to that, I suspect, would be "so what", to which I might reply "Why even bother in the first place, then?".

TLDR - Mars is not inflicting "a burden" on you. Burden of Proof is just something that exists. If you make a claim, it's up to you to prove said claim.

 

[Lufia Erim]

I think cheating is one of the lowest things you can do. If you are unhappy in a relationship, have the balls to break up with your partner, continue as friends or explore polyamory(and let them do it too). Don't go behind your partner's back, violate their trust massively, and risking both your and their health(STD's). And that's not even counting the possible result: kids....there it gets even nastier.
In a polyamorous relationship, nobody gets hurt (at least, not by definition).
With cheating, you can effectively kill your partner (via an STD), give them longterm medical problems, drain them financially by having them raise kids that aren't theirs, give them huge psychological trauma when they find out...So no, cheating should not ever be as acceptable as polyamory.

Socially acceptable. There is a difference. I literally put that in the first 3 words of the OP. Everything you said is true. But has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

My reply to you that Mars is challenging was all about pointing out the weakness of your single anecdote. It was not "hand waving". It was, more or less, my way of fighting lukewarm with lukewarm.

Anecdotal evidence isn't weak evidence, it isn't evidence at all. I was using the anecdote as an illustration, not in an attempt to suggest all cheating follows this one particular pattern. That would be patently absurd.

You made a claim. A ridiculous one, meant to illustrate a world view. You're quite permitted to disagree with me on principle, you're not required to invent fantastical statistics as a way to give your argument weight.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Ehh, maybe. It's not uncommon to come across people online who stubbornly refuse to change their opinions in the face of new evidence. But are they just the most visible people? Do they just shout the loudest?

I dunno, but I like to think that for most people, such a caveat would be implicit in all things they do and say.

I'd like to think that too, I'd just like to see more evidence of it before I believe it.

If they're not in the same ball park they're playing the same sport.

Woof. Do not agree. I understand the thrust of your argument...placing all these things along an "axis of immorality", if you will, but cheating is not an intrinsically/essentially immoral act. Rape is. Will substantiate in further answer below.

It's wrong to blame victims of infidelity for being cheated on.

What if I...beat my wife? What if I cheated on her, and she cheated on me in turn? What if I was guilty of casual, persistent neglect? Or emotional abuse and pressure? What if we'd been dating for an entire week, and I felt obligated to my girlfriend's monogamy? What if I'm emotionally volatile and she's scared of how I'll react to a breakup and hasn't found the gumption to confront me yet? What if we're horribly, impossibly wrong for each other, and the relationship is making us both miserable, and I'm too insecure/ineffectual to end it? Etc, etc, etc. Would you cast those people as victims, and the cheaters as oppressors?

Do I think I deserved to be cheated on? Not really, it could've been handled better, in both cases. Could any sensible person have observed either relationship as a third party and seen it coming? Probably. Almost definitely, in one of the two cases. Was I culpable for the state of said relationships? Almost entirely in one case, 50/50 in the other.

Besides, I would never BLAME someone who got cheated on...well, maybe some people, the real overt shitheads...but I also think it's ludicrous to paint myself as a victim. I endured a couple of relationships that had bad endings, that I had a share in. Just because I wasn't the one who cheated didn't mean I was a good boyfriend, or that the way things ended wasn't partially on my plate. I'm still good friends with one of the girls (very close friends, actually), and on genial speaking terms with the other (who married the guy she cheated on me with, and had two kids). They're not bad people. They didn't even do a particularly bad thing. I'm fine. They're fine. Certainly my experiences aren't representative of everyone's, and I would never claim they should be, but they're representative of possible experiences. Which is why I get so cranky when people want to paint the act in shades of absolute black and white.

And the person in question. But I think it's fairer (and more achievable) to encourage people to be self analytical while also allowing them their condemning, emotional response. Rather than encouraging them to be self analytical and serenely forgiving at the same time. The condemnative behaviour we're discussing is a very human response and again, I feel that to deny people that right is like denying them part of their own humanity.

It's possible we're having a miscommunication, but I never suggested that people who get cheated on shouldn't or can't have an emotional response. I've continually stated it's third parties...particularly third parties entirely divorced from the people/situation...having "condemnatory emotional responses" that annoys me. The same way people having "condemnatory emotional responses" to the personal lives of strangers has always annoyed me.

 

[Charli]

I think most people make no distinction between the two.

Yeah it's pretty much the kicker here. Most don't understand Polyamory. They're not used to knowing people who are in those types of relationships. So they just think, Whaaaat you're in a relationship with TWOOOO people? Cheating!!!1

 

[renegade7]

Seriously, what is the deal with people and cheating?

I get why it's an upsetting subject to people and why people fear that it may happen to them. When you enter into an intimate relationship someone you open yourself up and make yourself vulnerable on many different levels, and an unfaithful partner can make you feel betrayed. But lots of things can make you feel deeply betrayed and hurt, so what I don't understand is the sheer quantity of uncompromising fury that some people have towards it.

I'm flipping through this thread and I'm seeing people call infidelity literally a form of psychological abuse, or otherwise taking a very hard-line stance towards it that I normally would expect to see in discussions of felony crimes. Whenever the subject of cheating comes up in these discussions, the amount of judgmental hostility that arises overwhelms almost anything I usually see on forums like this one. Instead of a person who made a mistake, we assume that person to be a creep, a pervert, morally bankrupt, or an abuser.

I'm not saying it's okay. I wouldn't cheat on someone, and if I found out I was being cheated on it would be grounds for a very serious talk about the direction of the relationship. But I don't see the point of all the decisive indignation about the subject and I don't understand why such extreme opinions are held about it.

And just stepping out of this thread for a moment, I'd also look to the number of murders committed as "crimes of passion" as a result of infidelity. I just can't seem to understand how this could be so loathsome as to provoke murderous intent.

 

[thewatergamer]

I have no idea what "society" would claim is socially acceptable, but in general for me, cheating is much worse since polygamy heavily implies that all parties are aware of what's going on and are ok with it while cheating is quite the opposite, with all that said everything comes down to context and I really don't have a general consensus since polygamy can be horrible and abusive and cheating can, while still being a very bad thing to do, have some circumstances that are more "ok" than others

 

[viscomica]

I'm going to go against the grain and say yes, it is.

What you'll find, quite often, is that a lot of people have a rather selfish sense of morality - They only care about things enough to do something about it when it happens to them. Someone cheats on them? End of the world. A friend cheats on their significant other? 'Oh, you.' The world is covered in friends who don't even care enough to stop being friends with the cheating piece of shit, let alone do any serious judging.

But polyamory? That's just weird. Awkward. 'Unnatural.' In a strange twist of socially constructed protocol, people often seem more inclined to judge things that are weird, then things that are common but douchie.

This so much! You can't even imagine just how many times a friend of mine has told me her best friend is cheating on her significant other with plenty of men even married men and she's always shrugging it off as "oh, well" Are you serious? I always feel enraged when she tells me because I know if it were happening to her it'd be the worst thing ever. Why do we always side with our friends when they cheat instead of telling them to cut it off? Offer helpful advice? Then these same people find someone is polyamorous and get outraged.
In short, I agree with what you said.

 

[Joccaren]

I'm also going to throw my hat in for yes, but it will greatly vary dependent on where you go. Some areas are fine with polygamy itself, but strongly against cheating. Some places cheating is fairly commonplace, but polygamy is weird. Most places frown a bit on both.

However polygamy [Easier to type for me, sorry if its not completely correct in this context] is something that people don't understand, whilst cheating is.
When someone cheats, there's a clear right and wrong, and someone has to get upset, and punish the cheater in some way. Its glorified in soap operas and dramas, and everyone can understand the intent behind it - something isn't quite working out with your normal partner, so you go behind their back and see someone else at the same time. A lot of people see it as secret polygamy in some ways - people are known to love both the person they're cheating on, and the person they're cheating with at times. However its accepted because it fits in with general society's morals. Or. Well. The punishment for it does.

Polygamy isn't understood in the same way. Everyone is aware its going on, and we've been trained for years that if your partner is sleeping with someone else, its cheating and you need to crack down on it. Most people also only know their own experiences, and feel they should only love one person as that's how they've been bought up, and can't understand loving another member of the same gender as well as their chosen husband/wife [Since in most places its only legal to have one]. This makes things really weird for judging polygamy, as its something that not only do people not understand, but they further have trouble understanding it as not cheating. The expect there to be conflict, and then a resolution, not everyone being all chummy about it. And because reality does not meet with their expectations, or what they can even comprehend, they shun it. Cheating is half shunned. Its seen as bad, but its understood, and you can still get on the victim's side and support them. In Polygamy, the 'victim' from some people's view point, isn't someone you can get on the side of. You can't approve of their actions and chastise their partner. You may want to, but the relationship is different.

So, by and large, I think yes, cheating is more socially acceptable than polygamy [Again going to re-iterate that I'm just using this as its easier to type and its really late at night so its going to be a pain for me to change them all], because its more understood.
Should it be? No. Cheating should be shunned to hell and back, and polygamy should be viewed as fine, at least IMO. However, we've been trained to have it the other way around. Movies, TV shows, books - they glorify cheating as this juicy bit of drama, and after the drama everyone moves on because its a movie/book/tv show and that's what happens. Polygamy is tied more to religious cults and ancient practices, and isn't even shown on TV most of the time. We've been trained to see relationships as only possible between two individuals, and to see cheating as something that happens fairly often and isn't as big a deal as it in some ways should be. The sad truth of society where 'fitting in' is more important than adult consent sometimes.