Lord of the Rings LEGO Fan Video Shows Why "Eagles Can't Solve Everything"

[FPLOON]

That was a pretty awesome (and funny) video and all... but, the debate between the use of the eagles will continue on til the ends of human time...

Plus, none of us are Tolkien... which trumps all Tolkien-related debates until we can literally bring him back to life to settle the score for a good 10-15 minutes, at least...

 

[RJ 17]

Snip.

Look, the reason being able to see the Ring is so important because you're trying to argue that Sauron "can see everything" when he can't even see the very object he's specifically looking for when he's looking right at it.

But I really didn't want to get into this argument in the first place, so I'll let Zhukov take over if he so desires. But as an olive-branch, let me offer you this:

I get why the Eagles weren't used, because as cliche as this saying has become it holds perfectly true for the story of The Lord of the Rings: "It's about the journey, not the quest." The story isn't about Frodo throwing a ring into a volcano, it's about what he had to do to get there. What the other's had to do to help him in indirect ways. The battles that are fought, the heroes that are born, all that good stuff. That is the irrefutable reason that the Eagles aren't used, and we got a damn good story out of it. The over-all point is that LotR is not the first story to have a major plot-hole in it, nor was it the last. I still enjoy the story despite this - as I and many others see it - glaring plot-hole.

 

[Azahul]

Look, the reason being able to see the Ring is so important because you're trying to argue that Sauron "can see everything" when he can't even see the very object he's specifically looking for when he's looking right at it.

But I really didn't want to get into this argument in the first place, so I'll let Zhukov take over if he so desires. But as an olive-branch, let me offer you this:

I get why the Eagles weren't used, because as cliche as this saying has become it holds perfectly true for the story of The Lord of the Rings: "It's about the journey, not the quest." The story isn't about Frodo throwing a ring into a volcano, it's about what he had to do to get there. What the other's had to do to help him in indirect ways. The battles that are fought, the heroes that are born, all that good stuff. That is the irrefutable reason that the Eagles aren't used, and we got a damn good story out of it. The over-all point is that LotR is not the first story to have a major plot-hole in it, nor was it the last. I still enjoy the story despite this - as I and many others see it - glaring plot-hole.

It's just a bit frustrating, to me at least, that you do see this as a glaring plot-hole. Because it really isn't. Even if Sauron can't spot the Ring, he spots the Hobbits. Hobbits are smaller and less of a threat than Eagles, especially since they're disguised as Orcs and Sauron assumes, at that point in time, that the Hobbits are being used as scouts and spies by Aragorn (the man he presumes has the Ring). Ergo, we can probably assume that given Sauron's ability to spot Hobbits, he would have no trouble spotting the much larger and much more threatening Eagles. Whether or not he can detect that those Eagles are carrying the Ring is, at that point, irrelevant. He will take that as an attack by the very beings that were able to permanently scar Morgoth himself. And once spotted, Sauron has a myriad of ways to dispose of them. He has weather control, flying monsters and animals, and the force of his stare alone could send them toppling to their deaths.

I'm not arguing that Sauron is omnipotent, that this attack would be doomed to fail. I'd say its odds of success are low, but not impossible. When weighing up the odds, the Council decided that the greatest odds of success lay in a small force sneaking past Sauron's gaze, and that's what they went with (and it worked). I don't call the decision not to mount a risky aerial assault a plot hole, and so I don't even have to go through the bother of looking past it to enjoy the awesome story that is Lord of the Rings. There doesn't have to be an "enjoy the story despite this", it's as simple as "enjoy the story". This particular plot hole is, and has always been, a fallacy.

 

[RJ 17]

This particular plot hole is, and has always been, a fallacy.

And I say the exact same thing about the "plot-holes" that many see in Mass Effect 3's ending. For every attack against ME3's ending, I have a defense...and for every defense, there is a counter-attack that I have to fend off with an even more in-depth defense. The plain fact of the matter is that it can literally go on forever, which is why I don't like getting into debates like this regardless of which side I'd be supporting. Regardless of how long the discussion goes on, neither side will be definitely proven right ("proven" in this case meaning you'll actually get those supporting the other side to say "You're right".) I've grown tired of mounting such defenses, and as such I don't enjoy putting people through such defenses regardless of whether or not I think they're wrong.

 

[Azahul]

This particular plot hole is, and has always been, a fallacy.

And I say the exact same thing about the "plot-holes" that many see in Mass Effect 3's ending. For every attack against ME3's ending, I have a defense...and for every defense, there is a counter-attack that I have to fend off with an even more in-depth defense. The plain fact of the matter is that it can literally go on forever, which is why I don't like getting into debates like this regardless of which side I'd be supporting. Regardless of how long the discussion goes on, neither side will be definitely proven right ("proven" in this case meaning you'll actually get those supporting the other side to say "You're right".) I've grown tired of mounting such defenses, and as such I don't enjoy putting people through such defenses regardless of whether or not I think they're wrong.

Well, let's go with it this way. There's enough information out there to put a pretty massive question mark over the feasibility of the eagle attack. Now, whether or not such an attempt is still possible becomes a bit irrelevant at this point, because once reduced from "definite chance of success" to "could work" the Eagle plan falls into the same category as the plan the Fellowship actually went with. After all these arguments and counter-arguments, both sides of the argument can at least concede that sneak into Mordor and fly into Mordor are at this point both at the "could work" level. Which means that neither is objectively and provably better than the other, and we may as well relax and enjoy the fact that the author went with the option that made for the better story.

Because, as you said, that's really the only definitive fact we have about the entire situation. The journey was the point of the Lord of the Rings, and the journey was what we got.

 

[Spartan448]

Silly Gandalf, you should know by now that flying units take critical damage from archers. At least send some Generals in first, geeze (because Oswin on his own could probably tank most of what those Orcs fired without too much trouble).

 

[mistwolf]

And let's not forget the scale of risk. MAYBE the eagles wouldn't be seen... But they were a lot more likely than a stealth incursion. And this is a situation where they are already all or nothing - every added bit of risk also raises the risk of catastrophe. And someone mentioned that Sauron had all his forces at the gate - we see no evidence of this. There are plenty of things all around his realm, including 'neutral' beings like Shelob that were just evil living in the shadow of evil. We simply have no way to know the exact details of the aerial defences because we never see them. It is easy to play armchair hero and say 'Bah, just fly in, drop, be done' but I think we have to trust the people involved to have a better idea of the real situation. The mounts the flying Nazgul rode are likely just one of many 'evil' flying beings in the realm.

 

[Undomesticated Equine]

The main reason why Eagles would not work was that they could not just drop the ring in the vulcano it had to be thrown into the cracks of doom that were only accessible through a gate or cave or whatever in the side of the mountain of doom. The eagles would have to land there. And do not forget that the point of walking there was to be sneaky, remember Sauron had no idea they wanted to destroy the ring, until Frodo claimed it standing over the chasm. As soon as he could see the eagles flying in he would figure out what is going on and fortified the shit out of the whole Mount Doom so no matter how high they would fly and how hard they dodged arrows and flying cave trolls, once they landed they would never ever get in and all would be lost.

Anyone who asks why not eagles? Probably did not think about it all that much.

 

[11zxcvb11]

if anything, this video convinces me that eagles could have worked just fine. just don't fly them 20 meters above the black gate and all is well (sauron cannot fry you to a crisp with his sight).

 

[Azahul]

if anything, this video convinces me that eagles could have worked just fine. just don't fly them 20 meters above the black gate and all is well (sauron cannot fry you to a crisp with his sight).

Well, he can stun and/or paralyse you with his sight. Would be kind of fatal mid-flight, I feel.

 

[11zxcvb11]

if anything, this video convinces me that eagles could have worked just fine. just don't fly them 20 meters above the black gate and all is well (sauron cannot fry you to a crisp with his sight).

Well, he can stun and/or paralyse you with his sight. Would be kind of fatal mid-flight, I feel.

but is there any indication that this would work against the great eagles? they are less like giant birds and more like some air spirits who are intelligent and capable of speech. didn't they stand up to dragons sometime in the first age? and they would not have to all fly in together in a great big flock; some would serve as decoys (so-called "penetration aids" for ballistic missile warheads) and gandalf is not completely useless either. of course not all the great eagles would survive, but their noble sacrifice will be remembered for some time.

at the end of the day the eagles are just deus ex machina, by tolkien's own admission, so i suppose they are a bit of a plot hole because of that.

 

[SpadeJester]

if anything, this video convinces me that eagles could have worked just fine. just don't fly them 20 meters above the black gate and all is well (sauron cannot fry you to a crisp with his sight).

Well, he can stun and/or paralyse you with his sight. Would be kind of fatal mid-flight, I feel.

but is there any indication that this would work against the great eagles? they are less like giant birds and more like some air spirits who are intelligent and capable of speech. didn't they stand up to dragons sometime in the first age? and they would not have to all fly in together in a great big flock; some would serve as decoys (so-called "penetration aids" for ballistic missile warheads) and gandalf is not completely useless either. of course not all the great eagles would survive, but their noble sacrifice will be remembered for some time.

Except that BECAUSE of the fact that they are Maiar they will be affected by his sight. The Maiar are much more easily corrupted, that's why Gandalf didn't dare picking up the ring with his hand when he felt something not right about it.

Then there's also the fact that the eagles are dicks, they would not partake in any suicidal missions as you suggested simply because they are so prideful that they always wait for the last moment to swoop in and save the day.

 

[Triaed]

Well, ignore the whole flying into Mt Doom and the fly high/low/around/fast/slow strategies... Can't the eagles just take them to the border and save them a month of travel? They can always just walk in from the easter edge of the Marshes

 

[Azahul]

if anything, this video convinces me that eagles could have worked just fine. just don't fly them 20 meters above the black gate and all is well (sauron cannot fry you to a crisp with his sight).

Well, he can stun and/or paralyse you with his sight. Would be kind of fatal mid-flight, I feel.

but is there any indication that this would work against the great eagles? they are less like giant birds and more like some air spirits who are intelligent and capable of speech. didn't they stand up to dragons sometime in the first age? and they would not have to all fly in together in a great big flock; some would serve as decoys (so-called "penetration aids" for ballistic missile warheads) and gandalf is not completely useless either. of course not all the great eagles would survive, but their noble sacrifice will be remembered for some time.

at the end of the day the eagles are just deus ex machina, by tolkien's own admission, so i suppose they are a bit of a plot hole because of that.

Let's just go with, "Sauron is feared as the Dark Lord for a reason," and assume that he is superior to the average Eagle, even when weakened. Sauron was one of Morgoth's highest lieutenants in the first age, above any of the dragons, and even diminished he still poses an insurmountable threat to powerful Maia like Gandalf and Saruman.

Well, ignore the whole flying into Mt Doom and the fly high/low/around/fast/slow strategies... Can't the eagles just take them to the border and save them a month of travel? They can always just walk in from the easter edge of the Marshes

I'm pretty sure Sauron would spot even that. The Eagles leaving their eyrie is a pretty big deal, and that's what Sauron is on the alert for.