Losing my native language

[Jonluw]

Language is not simply a basic means of communication. To think in two different languages is to structure your entire thought process in two completely different ways. Translations of important texts into English don't always relay the full intended spirit of the original work, and vice versa. For example, Franz Kafka's 'The Metamorphosis', originally written in Czech, suffered in the translation of its core themes. It certainly has more impact in its native language.

Back to the main point, even if a universal language could be adopted, I imagine several branches and dialects would break off, and develop a unique flavour of their own. I mean, our modern 'English' would be indecipherable to many people who also spoke 'English' in the Middle Ages, or indeed even 150 years ago. Who can say that any current iteration of language would be a permanent one? Or even that any one language is the 'best' one?

I do see the problem of the language branching out into dialects that might move in different directions and, with time, become mutually unintelligible; and perhaps evolving into new languages altogether. However, due to our modern infrastructure, I do not think this will happen.

The main reason, I think, dialects evolve, is that communities are separated over long periods of time, with few to no means of communication. Take Norway for example: Despite being a tiny country with only 4.8 million inhabitants, we have a shitload of dialects [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_dialects]. This is largely attributed to Norway being a wonder of topography; composed almost entirely out of mountains and valleys. Until just recently, traversing even small distances was a difficult, dangerous, and extremely time consuming process. Therefore the different communities were largely separated, so the languages spoken in the different regions moved in different directions and developed their own quirks. (For example, the entire west part of Norway pronounces the 'r' like the French do, instead of the retroflex 'r' that is the norm.)

If you compare this to New York, an area with a population almost twice that of Norway, there are almost no variations in dialect. This would be because all the people living in the area have been able to communicate without problems throughout its history (and, of course, because the USA is a fairly young country).

My point is that all the means of communication and transport we have in today's world would enable us use one language; while keeping the distortion of the language in the different regions down to a minimum.

Also: Let me be the first to welcome you to the Escapist.

 

[Edorf]

A fellow Norwegian here, and I'm in the exact same situation as you. Only I can barely have a regular "everyday" conversation without brining in alot of english words. My brother and I also (for some odd reason not even we know) usually talk to eachother in English.

 

[Hashime]

Hiya escapists.

I've been using English a lot lately. When I read something online, or post something on these forums, it is mostly in English. I neither write nor read a lot in my mother tongue.

Spoiler: Spoilered for neat-ness

Having to use English on the internet, when watching TV, and when playing videogames has really improved my English. Now that's all fine and good, but recently I've found that when I try to lead a conversation more complex than just casual everyday talk in my native language, I have trouble phrasing myself without resorting to English words and expressions; and when talking I sometimes begin a sentence, only to find I can't finish it, because I was using the English sentence structure.

Do any of you have personal experience with this kind of phenomena?

This little problem of mine leads me to what I would like to discuss with you (in addition to my situation that is): Do you think the world should ultimately have one, and only one, language shared by all its inhabitants, or do you prefer the diversity?

Personally, I think the world would flow a lot better with only one language; but I am far too much of a romantic to let all the different languages out there die.

Edit: My native language is Norwegian, if anyone cares.

Edit: I sometimes catch myself thinking in English. This, I find very strange.

English is the most widespread (geographically) language on the world, and is the language of business. I do see your dilemma though. There is really nothing you can do about it other than using your mother tongue more.

 

[Jonluw]

English is the most widespread (geographically) language on the world, and is the language of business. I do see your dilemma though. There is really nothing you can do about it other than using your mother tongue more.

I know I should. Problem is I only ever use it in everyday conversation, and thus my Norwegian grades are suffering (When going from year 10 to 11, my Norwegian grades (formerly top grades) dropped two notches...). I should probably try reading more books in Norwegian, but there are two problems with that: 1. I do not read a lot of books. 2. When I do read a book, I prefer to read it in English, so I know what I read is as close to how the author intended it as possible. of course, I read books that were written in Norwegian in Norwegian, but there aren't a lot of those books that are interesting. I read Growth of the soil once. It was a horrible experience.

 

[sramota]

Hi Jonluw,
there's actually a reason for this, and that is where you're from.
Nordic countries in general have a fairly weak culture identity. (Compare to the French, German, Italian etc. Nordic countries are just "Blonde, dumb, blue-eyed and tend to fornicate)
As a result, back in the early '90s when American TV became more and more popular and the nordic countries went from the 5-6 national channels to MTV, EuroSport, the whole cinema channels network etc. all nordic countries started to associate American movies with what they provided. Emotional stimulation, intense dramas and sitcoms (In difference of the nordic half-arsed snoreinducing dramas and bleeding depressing themes)

Because of this, it's now a large, albeit unknown, part of nordic culture to associate emotional expression with the English language.
As they moved from TV and coffee with the neighbours to YouTube and broadband speeds (Instead of the pay-per-minute phone lines) the generations growing up during this time has been adapted to using English as a primary way of emotional expression, leaving native languages to every day chit-chat,'serious' talk or a way to convey deeply personal emotions.
(I.E you'd talk about the news, sex, funny stuff that happened during the day and so on, in English, even with your peers. But you'll leave the act of saying 'I Love You' to your girlfriend, in norwegian, because it's more vulnerable)


I hope this provides some insight for you.

 

[Kaymish]

yea i stopped speaking mine but i never learned English properly i speak it fine but getting punctuation in writing is difficult mostly i for get it since my first language never had it
so it leaves me in a limbo
i have mostly forgotten my first language mostly because only few people outside our group speak it
but i don't write English well and some times i have trouble communicating concepts to people and my sentences become disjointed

 

[Kajt]

Edit: I sometimes catch myself thinking in English. This, I find very strange.

I do this all the time. Pretty strange indeed. Fortunately I still live in Sweden so it's almost impossible for me to loose my native language. I'd probably loose my native language quite fast if I moved to, say, the UK or Germany.

 

[Dyme]

I am German. German is just like English, so I don't think I am going to forget too much.
However, sometimes I don't find some German words or use English words in a German version. Like ridikül or hilarül.
But I would really be lost in English countries because I kinda only know them internetz words and if I was in for example a kitchen I would only know how to name about 5 objects there. KNIFE SPOON FORK TABLE and REFRIDGERATOR.

 

[Jonluw]

Hi Jonluw,
there's actually a reason for this, and that is where you're from.
Nordic countries in general have a fairly weak culture identity. (Compare to the French, German, Italian etc. Nordic countries are just "Blonde, dumb, blue-eyed and tend to fornicate)

Nono. That's just the swedes.

I'd also like to argue I have a fairly good culture identity. Though not as strong as the ones you listed. Here [http://humoncomics.com/scandinavia-and-the-world]'s a comic that might provide some insight into how Scandinavians view themselves. Provided you're not Scandinavian, that is. In which case, nevermind.

As a result, back in the early '90s when American TV became more and more popular and the nordic countries went from the 5-6 national channels to MTV, EuroSport, the whole cinema channels network etc. all nordic countries started to associate American movies with what they provided. Emotional stimulation, intense dramas and sitcoms (In difference of the nordic half-arsed snoreinducing dramas and bleeding depressing themes)

Because of this, it's now a large, albeit unknown, part of nordic culture to associate emotional expression with the English language.
As they moved from TV and coffee with the neighbours to YouTube and broadband speeds (Instead of the pay-per-minute phone lines) the generations growing up during this time has been adapted to using English as a primary way of emotional expression, leaving native languages to every day chit-chat,'serious' talk or a way to convey deeply personal emotions.
(I.E you'd talk about the news, sex, funny stuff that happened during the day and so on, in English, even with your peers. But you'll leave the act of saying 'I Love You' to your girlfriend, in norwegian, because it's more vulnerable)


I hope this provides some insight for you.

I don't feel your description quite matches my situation. I do not use English as my primary way of emotional expression, I normally speak in Norwegian, like any of my peers. Trouble is, I rarely read or write in everyday life outside of the internet, and I'm not a very social person. So you see; most all the reading and writing I do is done in English, and I don't talk a lot. Consequently, my vocabulary is suffering.

For example: This one time, I was telling my mates about a guy who was going to scout a location for a film-crew.

The actual sentence, in Norwegian, ended up like so: Han skulle ut og "scoute" en "location" for et "filmcrew".
I simply could not remember the Norwegian translation for those words

 

[cathou]

outside internet i barely use english, so that would be a no, i'm losing my mother language. but also i have plenty of opportunity to speak it and use it everywhere in my region.

 

[sramota]

I'm actually Scandinavian myself and, trust me, Swedes don't appreciate the fact that the world views them as blonde airheads either.

It is very much true that Sweden has the weakest cultural identity, Norway is not far off actually. (No, wearing a lusekofte does not count as a cultural identity)


I can understand that you feel a bit distant to the scenario I described. This is because you're most likely born in the mid '90s, where the things I explained had just been 'settled' into the nordic homes. It may seem natural to you, but anyone born 10 years before you will recognize this as very familiar.

The end result is that you're feeling as if the amount of English you're being exposed to is 'just normal', whereas it's actually a very high amount compared to anyone born in the 80's.
The Swedes have an expression for the situation you describe, "Svenglish" (Swedish-English) and "Försvenskning" (Swedification). I'm unsure if Norway has adapted to these terms yet, if not, you will soon.
The whole concept of these two terms derive from the 'English boom' between ~87-95 and is common among that generation as the exposure to the English language is so high you have grown up with the duality of Norwegian and English and some words get mixed up due to which language you were exposed to the most. Scouting would be an obvious one as it's such a common word in gaming. And as is traditional in the "Swedification" ("Norification"?) the word is adapted to Norwegian and used with it.

This is common among most countries, although more prominent in scandinavia (Again due to identity) and due to previous reasons, it's also expected.

While I understand you're not aware of the quick and explosive arrival of English in the every day lives of Scandinavians, it is, in fact, not much later than when you were born that this happened.
(Btw are you aware of how much English you *REALLY* speak in your daily life?)

Edit: Short sidenote - The Danes are the worst,
you can read about it here http://ojs.ub.gu.se/ojs/index.php/njes/article/viewFile/249/246
if interested.

 

[Tanis]

I speak/read/think American-English...so it's all good for me.

If there ever was a 'Global Language' I'd have to think it'd because after some massive war, and depending on the victor, English.

Everyone seems to speak/learn English before/after their native-tongue.
You can probably blame computers for that.

 

[CrazyMedic]

english is my naitve language but I agree with you there should be a universal language I suppose an english based system would be based as it is the most common language but still just like one day "hello kids today you are learning a different language ju sip *gurgling noise*"so in other words it would be hard to implement and would gradually morph into a separate languages but atleast things would be similar.

 

[DoctorObviously]

Oh my, I have the exact same "problem". I mostly speak, read, and even something think in the English language.

 

[DoctorObviously]

I speak/read/think American-English...so it's all good for me.

If there ever was a 'Global Language' I'd have to think it'd because after some massive war, and depending on the victor, English.

Everyone seems to speak/learn English before/after their native-tongue.
You can probably blame computers for that.

Sorry for the double post, but the only country that wouldn't accept English are the French.

 

[cacophonick]

Language is not simply a basic means of communication. To think in two different languages is to structure your entire thought process in two completely different ways. Translations of important texts into English don't always relay the full intended spirit of the original work, and vice versa. For example, Franz Kafka's 'The Metamorphosis', originally written in Czech, suffered in the translation of its core themes. It certainly has more impact in its native language.

Back to the main point, even if a universal language could be adopted, I imagine several branches and dialects would break off, and develop a unique flavour of their own. I mean, our modern 'English' would be indecipherable to many people who also spoke 'English' in the Middle Ages, or indeed even 150 years ago. Who can say that any current iteration of language would be a permanent one? Or even that any one language is the 'best' one?

I do see the problem of the language branching out into dialects that might move in different directions and, with time, become mutually unintelligible; and perhaps evolving into new languages altogether. However, due to our modern infrastructure, I do not think this will happen.

The main reason, I think, dialects evolve, is that communities are separated over long periods of time, with few to no means of communication. Take Norway for example: Despite being a tiny country with only 4.8 million inhabitants, we have a shitload of dialects [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_dialects]. This is largely attributed to Norway being a wonder of topography; composed almost entirely out of mountains and valleys. Until just recently, traversing even small distances was a difficult, dangerous, and extremely time consuming process. Therefore the different communities were largely separated, so the languages spoken in the different regions moved in different directions and developed their own quirks. (For example, the entire west part of Norway pronounces the 'r' like the French do, instead of the retroflex 'r' that is the norm.)

If you compare this to New York, an area with a population almost twice that of Norway, there are almost no variations in dialect. This would be because all the people living in the area have been able to communicate without problems throughout its history (and, of course, because the USA is a fairly young country).

My point is that all the means of communication and transport we have in today's world would enable us use one language; while keeping the distortion of the language in the different regions down to a minimum.

Also: Let me be the first to welcome you to the Escapist.

I agree.

In the 21st century we have an unprecedented global cultural environment, and for the first time in history, a viable need for a universal language. At no other point in history have so many people been able to communicate in one space so easily and so rapidly.

However, I think as these topological barriers are broken down, new sociological ones will be constructed. Ultimately, people strive towards creating an 'identity' for themselves, whether that be a nationality, or a race, or a social group, and I feel that language is a big part of that.

Indeed, I feel that our modern infrastructure is the key to the next step in our linguistic evolution, not an obstacle.

Right at this moment, one of the largest linguistic divides is between the technologically literate and the technologically illiterate. In less than twenty years, a whole new 'dialect' has emerged on the internet for the internet. For example, LOLcats, 1337speak, #doyouseewhereimgoingwiththis.

In this way, I believe that many linguistic offshoots would be created, connected directly to groups of people with similar social interests - separated yes, but by mountains of our own making. Distortion of language in this way is inevitable, but not unwelcome. Literature, drama, and poetry depend on these idiosyncracies to create art and to remain relevant.

To come back to your main point, I feel you may be right, in that a universal language would be possible to create purely on a bureaucratic level (lawyerspeak? newspeak?), but to try and implement a common language to use on a casual or artistic level I think is both impossible and unnecessary.

Also: Thankyou! (or tusen takk?)

 

[Tanis]

I speak/read/think American-English...so it's all good for me.

If there ever was a 'Global Language' I'd have to think it'd because after some massive war, and depending on the victor, English.

Everyone seems to speak/learn English before/after their native-tongue.
You can probably blame computers for that.

Sorry for the double post, but the only country that wouldn't accept English are the French.

Then we just threaten to declare war on them.
They surrender in about four to five hours, with English as their official language.

 

[Duruznik]

Welcome to the world of bilinguals. It's a common joke that true bilinguals don't know 2 languages very well, they just know both of them quite poorly.

Don't worry about it. It's perfectly natural and the only thing to do about it is try to use your native tongue as much as possible, but it won't solve everything. Bilinguals constantly have to resort to the other language whenever using one language. It's a curse and a blessing.

And yeah, this is from personal experience. I'm a proud Hebrew-English speaker, and native n both!

 

[theriddlen]

When i was reading the first post, i started to think "Yeah, i ..." and suddenly realized, that i was thinking in english. And my native is polish. Also, i noticed that i feel more comfortable thinking in english than polish.

 

[Jonluw]

I'm actually Scandinavian myself and, trust me, Swedes don't appreciate the fact that the world views them as blonde airheads either.

It is very much true that Sweden has the weakest cultural identity, Norway is not far off actually. (No, wearing a lusekofte does not count as a cultural identity)


I can understand that you feel a bit distant to the scenario I described. This is because you're most likely born in the mid '90s, where the things I explained had just been 'settled' into the nordic homes. It may seem natural to you, but anyone born 10 years before you will recognize this as very familiar.

The end result is that you're feeling as if the amount of English you're being exposed to is 'just normal', whereas it's actually a very high amount compared to anyone born in the 80's.
The Swedes have an expression for the situation you describe, "Svenglish" (Swedish-English) and "Försvenskning" (Swedification). I'm unsure if Norway has adapted to these terms yet, if not, you will soon.
The whole concept of these two terms derive from the 'English boom' between ~87-95 and is common among that generation as the exposure to the English language is so high you have grown up with the duality of Norwegian and English and some words get mixed up due to which language you were exposed to the most. Scouting would be an obvious one as it's such a common word in gaming. And as is traditional in the "Swedification" ("Norification"?) the word is adapted to Norwegian and used with it.

This is common among most countries, although more prominent in scandinavia (Again due to identity) and due to previous reasons, it's also expected.

While I understand you're not aware of the quick and explosive arrival of English in the every day lives of Scandinavians, it is, in fact, not much later than when you were born that this happened.
(Btw are you aware of how much English you *REALLY* speak in your daily life?)

Edit: Short sidenote - The Danes are the worst,
you can read about it here http://ojs.ub.gu.se/ojs/index.php/njes/article/viewFile/249/246
if interested.

Interesting. I have no idea how much English I speak in my daily life. If you count the stuff I do online, English outweighs Norwegian by far, but if you're just talking about actually speaking, I do try to stick with Norwegian. This is where my problem steps in though: Due to my scranting vocabulary, I "occasionally" have to resort to anglicisms.

As for speaking the equivalent of "Svenglish", I don't think I do that a lot, unless I'm talking about videogames, anime or the likes (so, most of the time, then).

We do have the term "Norwenglish" but that's not used in the same way "Svenglish" is. "Norwenglish" is just English with a bad Norwegian accent. Like Petter Solberg or Thor Heyerdahl.