Magic in oblivion and skyrim-Which was better for pure mages?

SajuukKhar

New member
Sep 26, 2010
3,434
0
0
Doom972 said:
No challenge and difficulty? Have you played Oblivion? In Oblivion, they made it so you'll get tougher enemies with each level. After level 20 or so you get to fight minotaurs, mountain lions and highwaymen who have full glass/Daedric gear. This forces players to plan ahead when developing their characters and use everything the game allows them to. After level 30 or so, the existing spells aren't that effective anymore, so you can craft new and better spells at the Arcane University. Powerful spells cost a proportionate amount of mana so it never feels like cheating. It's a part of the world as much as anything else in every TES game up until Skyrim. I found it out of character that as the Arch Mage of the College of Winterhold, I couldn't create my own spells.
Ive honestly never got past level 30ish in Oblivion without running out of quests to do, and was able to beat the game fairly easy with just the pre-made vanilla spells.

And more powerful spells can very easily be made to cost many times less mana then normal ones as long as you know what you are doing.

Though I will admit I do understand how Oblivion's poor scaling system could force many to create their own spells if they did.

Llil said:
They clearly had the tools right there in the mages guild the whole time. It's their own fault they never realised you can combine a stack of 100% weakness to magic with a 1 second drain life. I have spells like that because I bothered to experiment and do some research insted or repeating the millenia old traditions.
Game mechanics =/= lore.

Except pausing time to open the menus, and the creation kit.
 

Llil

New member
Jul 24, 2008
653
0
0
SajuukKhar said:
Llil said:
They clearly had the tools right there in the mages guild the whole time. It's their own fault they never realised you can combine a stack of 100% weakness to magic with a 1 second drain life. I have spells like that because I bothered to experiment and do some research insted or repeating the millenia old traditions.
Game mechanics =/= lore.
If the game mechanics contradict the lore, there's a problem somewhere. But really, does it even matter? The Elder Scrolls lore is pretty messed up anyway. Like how all of the different mutually exclusive endings of Daggerfall are considered canon. And like you said, pausing and the creation kit.
 

SajuukKhar

New member
Sep 26, 2010
3,434
0
0
Llil said:
If the game mechanics contradict the lore, there's a problem somewhere. But really, does it even matter? The Elder Scrolls lore is pretty messed up anyway. Like how all of the different mutually exclusive endings of Daggerfall are considered canon. And like you said, pausing and the creation kit.
While TES lore is batcrap crazy, I do agree that the disconnect between gameplay mechanics and lore is a problem, hence why I have been saying spellmaking, as it was, was broken.
 

Llil

New member
Jul 24, 2008
653
0
0
SajuukKhar said:
While TES lore is batcrap crazy, I do agree that the disconnect between gameplay mechanics and lore is a problem, hence why I have been saying spellmaking, as it was, was broken.
I would put the fault on the side of badly written lore. I guess we are looking for different things in our Elder Scrolls games. You seem to appreciate the lore more, I think it's nonsense so I just focus on what the game lets me do.
 

SajuukKhar

New member
Sep 26, 2010
3,434
0
0
Llil said:
I would put the fault on the side of badly written lore. I guess we are looking for different things in our Elder Scrolls games. You seem to appreciate the lore more, I think it's nonsense so I just focus on what the game lets me do.
We will just to agree to disagree then, I dont find the lore badly written, just the games presentation of it very poor.
 

Naeras

New member
Mar 1, 2011
989
0
0
I have very limited experience with TES magic, so I'll have to ask if there's a specific kind of magic you're referring to. Because the little experience I have with magic in TES is from Skyrim, and it was the reason I stopped playing that game after 10-15 hours.

..that is to say, it was stupidly strong. By the time my Conjuring-level was half-decent, I could summon 2x Saurons to do my bidding. Said minions would team up with a chick and a horse and horribly murder everything within sight, leaving only the flower-picking for me. D:
 

Doclector

New member
Aug 22, 2009
5,010
0
0
WhiteTigerShiro said:
As someone who plays a Mage-themed character (or the closest equivalent that the game's setting and lore allows) in every game that has different classes: Skyrim. When I tried a Mage in Oblivion, it was basically just unplayable. And no, don't tell me about the "create-a-spell", because a pure Mage can't survive long enough (within reason) to afford TO create any spell that's worthwhile. Basically, every battle I got into was a painful slog. I was able to win the battle, sure, but they took forever to complete. A lot of this is because Bethesda's hatred of magic-using classes is well documented [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/columns/experienced-points/11041-Bethesda-Hates-Mages-12-Reasons-Magic-in-Skyrim-Sucks]. Seriously, head over to Google and type-in "Bethesda hates"; "mages" will be the second suggestion down after (for some reason) "Nintendo".

That said though, of the games listed, Skyrim has the least hate for magic. Morrowind and Oblivion saw Bethesda in this awkward phase where they were trying to compensate for Magic supposedly being "over-powered" in Daggerfall. So they made sure that if you were using magic in those two games, you were punished for it. Mana was extremely strictly limited, getting any damage out of spells was very mana-intensive, oh, and limited CCs to prevent Melee-based NPCs from getting up close and slicing through your wet-toilet-paper-for-armor. It's possible to play a mage in those games, sure, but it was just way too clumsy to be worth dealing with.

Skyrim hasn't quite perfected the balanced, but at least a pure mage character is playable without needing to bend-over backwards. Still though... our best armor does look like hobo clothes... >.>
Honestly, that's part of what I like about mages in general. There's two ways a mage typically looks in a game, like a posh scholarly gentleman/woman who couldn't possibly survive in a fight, or a dishevelled, mysterious fellow dressed in clothes that barely protect against a stiff wind. In other words, likely to be fatally underestimated.

Seems that most people here agree that skyrim has the better magic, so I'll start a mage on that.
 

DoPo

"You're not cleared for that."
Jan 30, 2012
8,665
0
0
Doclector said:
WhiteTigerShiro said:
As someone who plays a Mage-themed character (or the closest equivalent that the game's setting and lore allows) in every game that has different classes: Skyrim. When I tried a Mage in Oblivion, it was basically just unplayable. And no, don't tell me about the "create-a-spell", because a pure Mage can't survive long enough (within reason) to afford TO create any spell that's worthwhile. Basically, every battle I got into was a painful slog. I was able to win the battle, sure, but they took forever to complete. A lot of this is because Bethesda's hatred of magic-using classes is well documented [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/columns/experienced-points/11041-Bethesda-Hates-Mages-12-Reasons-Magic-in-Skyrim-Sucks]. Seriously, head over to Google and type-in "Bethesda hates"; "mages" will be the second suggestion down after (for some reason) "Nintendo".

That said though, of the games listed, Skyrim has the least hate for magic. Morrowind and Oblivion saw Bethesda in this awkward phase where they were trying to compensate for Magic supposedly being "over-powered" in Daggerfall. So they made sure that if you were using magic in those two games, you were punished for it. Mana was extremely strictly limited, getting any damage out of spells was very mana-intensive, oh, and limited CCs to prevent Melee-based NPCs from getting up close and slicing through your wet-toilet-paper-for-armor. It's possible to play a mage in those games, sure, but it was just way too clumsy to be worth dealing with.

Skyrim hasn't quite perfected the balanced, but at least a pure mage character is playable without needing to bend-over backwards. Still though... our best armor does look like hobo clothes... >.>
Honestly, that's part of what I like about mages in general. There's two ways a mage typically looks in a game, like a posh scholarly gentleman/woman who couldn't possibly survive in a fight, or a dishevelled, mysterious fellow dressed in clothes that barely protect against a stiff wind. In other words, likely to be fatally underestimated.

Seems that most people here agree that skyrim has the better magic, so I'll start a mage on that.
Well, yes - Skyrim has the more "mage"-y feeling of casting spells but Oblivion has the more of "I wave my hands and break reality" feeling of power. I can't really say which is better as it depends on what you are after. I would suggest Magicka, however as it is the game I've found to do "I am a mage" the best so far. Also, there is Lichdom on Early Access right now which seems to want to do something similar and it looks interesting.
 

Riotguards

New member
Feb 1, 2013
219
0
0
oblivion magic was fun and exciting, it was just fun to come up with spells that literally crippled everything that they touched, sure it broke any immersion and some spells downright destroyed it (like a fireball spell which hit everything and anything that lived in a town or a spell which would fling a stun at something causing it to fall flat on its face (or even funnier melt)
 

RedDeadFred

Illusions, Michael!
May 13, 2009
4,896
0
0
Both let you be really overpowered:

Oblivion -custom spells could be made to be extremely powerful if you had the right combinations.
Skyrim -Infinite stun locking with the impact perk.

I'd personally pick Skyrim since the spells look a lot better and there is more variation. Plus, the College of Winterhold questline is a lot better than the Mage Guild questline.
 

Riotguards

New member
Feb 1, 2013
219
0
0
RedDeadFred said:
Both let you be really overpowered:

Oblivion -custom spells could be made to be extremely powerful if you had the right combinations.
Skyrim -Infinite stun locking with the impact perk.

I'd personally pick Skyrim since the spells look a lot better and there is more variation. Plus, the College of Winterhold questline is a lot better than the Mage Guild questline.

to be honest at the time oblivion spells were the top of the range graphic's so its kinda unfair to judge it like that

plus most skyrim spells are bare bones of basic spells from what i remember
 

V da Mighty Taco

New member
Apr 9, 2011
890
0
0
Oblivion's magic system made actually playing as a mage far more practical than Skyrim, especially once custom spells got involved. You also can't simply ignore the custom spell system, since Oblivion was specifically designed to make custom spell creation one of the main reasons to being a pure mage. It was your main reward for travelling all over Cyrodiil to get those blasted recommendations so you could officially join the Mage's Guild and get allowed into the Arcane Academy, after all.

Even without those, however, the general non-Restoration spells in Oblivion (Restoration was amazing in both games) were far more practical and exploitable than in Skyrim (Ease Burden / Pack Mule, anyone?), and the ability to kite most enemies easily thanks to Oblivion's faster backpedal speed made even basic Destruction spells much more useful than Skyrim's. Skyrim's three Master Destruction spells were also horribly underpowered (with one even being glitched to the point of being nonfunctional) thanks to the colossal cast times that immobilized the user completely, requirement of both hands, and - with the exception of Lightning Storm - the unreasonable mana-cost to damage ratio and pitiful range. Considering that these were suppose to be the big rewards for pure mages in Skyrim as opposed to Oblivion's crafting system, this made going full mage just all around less feasible than in Oblivion.

I will admit though that the spells themselves looked much, much better and were significantly more creative in Skyrim. However, this thread is about which was better for pure mages, and in terms of actual usefulness Oblivion wins hands down.

EDIT: Forgot about the Impact perk, since I never used it even as a mage player. Yeah, that perk alone would put it in Skyrim's favor, as that perk is the most broken thing since 100% Chameleon in Oblivion. Infinite stunlock is all around stupid, no matter how you look at it. Fuck, Bethesda really can't make a good magic system to save their lives, can they?
 

Bruenin

New member
Nov 9, 2011
766
0
0
It depends on how you like your mages. Do you see mages as cannons, albeit glass ones or do you see them as intellectual problem solvers? Maybe both. I prefer DnD style mages, who derive a majority of their power from versatility. A spell to handle and improve every situation.

Magic in Skyrim is definitely more combat friendly and engaging, but at the same time it feels incredibly more streamlined and linear. I was really hoping the spray spells like the one you get with fire and lightning would have improved versions, or even the basic bolt would get improved versions so I'd have options. AoE ranged damage, Short range AoE spray, or long range single target, but instead each one was just an upgrade of the other and you wouldn't find it too effective trying to use the lower level variants later on in the game. Skyrim's magic system just didn't feel that fleshed out, even though I know of the large amount of effects and abilities present, it still felt shallow to me somehow so I prefer oblivion's style.

Oblivion does have some problems, and maybe the spell creation device gives it a feeling of artificial variety, but honestly, Oblivion does let you get some massive pew pew's while the magic in Skyrim falls behind in terms of damage when compared to late game melee/ranged. Starting as a mage in Skyrim and the whole level up system in general has a better feel as magic in Oblivion is rather difficult until you get spell creation.
 

DementedSheep

New member
Jan 8, 2010
2,654
0
0
I know this always gets asked but are you on PC? because if you are then there is also mods to consider.
 

RedDeadFred

Illusions, Michael!
May 13, 2009
4,896
0
0
Riotguards said:
RedDeadFred said:
Both let you be really overpowered:

Oblivion -custom spells could be made to be extremely powerful if you had the right combinations.
Skyrim -Infinite stun locking with the impact perk.

I'd personally pick Skyrim since the spells look a lot better and there is more variation. Plus, the College of Winterhold questline is a lot better than the Mage Guild questline.

to be honest at the time oblivion spells were the top of the range graphic's so its kinda unfair to judge it like that

plus most skyrim spells are bare bones of basic spells from what i remember
To an extent, yes. Oblivion has the same fire animation for EVERY target fire spell and then just expands it depending on the area of effect. Skyrim has different animations for every spell. Ya they're nothing super amazing to look at, but it's nice that the novice fire spell doesn't look exactly the same as the master spell.
 

sXeth

Elite Member
Legacy
Nov 15, 2012
3,301
675
118
Skyrim had better visuals, and the differing shapes/ranges in spells was welcome enough.

Oblivion definately had more versatility though.

It seemed like they really missed a boat not having the spellmaking in Skyrim, when it seems like it couldn't be too hard to just add the "Flamethrower", "Chain effect", etc in as options.
 

Moriim

New member
Jul 12, 2010
40
0
0
Magic in Oblivion was more convenient if nothing else. The ability to create your own spells with multiple effects meant that you could combo your Shield spells with your Resist spells with one spell cast rather than having to constantly cycle through whatever Cloak/Skin/Light spells in Skyrim.

Oblivion also had an effects bar on the HUD so you could track exactly when your buffs and summons were about to run out.

Oblivion encouraged more pure mage gameplay since spells scaled in small increments of damage, rather than in gigantic leaps in Skyrim. This more closely resembles the experience of upgrading from say an Elven weapon to an Ebony Weapon.

If fighters leveled the same way Skyrim mages do they would have an Iron Sword to start, then be forced to upgrade to a Steel Battleaxe that operates differently but has statistically superior DPS and renders the Iron Sword totally obsolete.

When is the last time you used Flames in Skyrim? I highly doubt anybody is casting the Novice/Apprentice spells in Skyrim once they have the objectively superior versions. Compare that to Oblivion: I used my starter spells all the time to deal with smaller enemies like Scamps since using my mega-death-ray spells would be massive overkill and totally magicka-inefficent. Your magicka bar starts out mattering and continues to matter well into the late game since "Reduced spell cost" wasn't a thing and magicka regen scaled so much more poorly in Oblivion, which encouraged having a wide array of spells to deal with the variety of opponents you faced.
 

KoudelkaMorgan

New member
Jul 31, 2009
1,365
0
0
Magic was infinitely better in Oblivion. First and foremost you could enchant your gear with Shield to make unbreakable cloth armor that was better than any actual armor that you needed to repair after every other hit at high lvls.

Since repair isn't a thing in Skyrim you might say its a moot point, but as I think all the armor in Skyrim looks like ass I'd rather just enchant my clothes instead of either having to cast Enonyflesh over and over and over, or abuse the hell out of smithing to make Steel Plate or Scaled Armor get to the cap.

In Oblivion I didn't have to go out of my way to find spell books/level up high enough to be able to even buy them. I just went to the Mage's Guild and made what I was optimally capable of using at my level and scaled up as I needed to.

I also was able to make SO MANY different spells with effects from multiple schools of magic. My favorite being a freezing fog aoe that paralyzed briefly. It wasn't nearly as OP as the tri-elemental spells with a one second drain health that could one shot practically anything though.

In Skyrim, there are far fewer spell effects and you are limited to very few actual spells. Of those, most are only slightly different from each other and all of them do really sad damage at high levels since they are hard capped and only slightly able to be augmented.

To compensate you are supposed to spam the crap out of them with impact or use all the schools of magic heavily to even the odds that being pure destruction would leave you with. Too many enemies? Better have them kill each other with a rage spell, or if they are too high a level for that you had better summon a deadra. They still coming? Better hope you killed a few to raise up, or that you still have enough magicka to spam destruction spells/paralyze/bound weapon them to death.

Having to fall back to using bound weapons because you have run out of magicka becomes far too prevalent unless you take magicka every level up/stack mage enchants on gear.

At that point you can just abuse enchanting to get cost free spells in 2 schools and get to spam them freely.

You still won't be killing anything any faster than if you just picked up a dagger and went apeshit, or a bow. You will also not have to spread 2 dozen perks across 5 trees just to be competent, and so on.

In Oblivion you also don't have to forgo your shield/weapon to cast. You can't break the game to get free casting either, and wearing armor reduced spell effectiveness in one of the last fits of actual balance Bethesda decided to employ in the series.

But there is one way in which Skyrim beats Oblivion magic. You don't get to have a pov kill cam of your ice spear flying and slamming into a deer or mudcrab. Which is about the only things you will be able to kill with it due to ice damage in both games being HEAVILY resisted by pretty much half the enemies.

Seriously I love ice magic, yet feel required to use fire because of balance issues. You'd think frost resist would only apply to spells like frostbite and ice storm, not getting impaled with ice spears. If anything that should be doing physical damage, and could fulfill that niche in a pure caster's repertoire instead of having to rely on summons/bound weapons.

I don't even bother with the master level spells in Skyrim, or the wall/cloak spells. They are cost inefficient, and the cloak spells cancel if you summon anything.

Even so, no matter which game's magic you prefer they are both better than TES melee combat by several orders of magnitude.

Archery I find to be the most effective/fun but rarely use it due to having to find my arrows/bound arrows never cleaning so it eventually causes massive lag.

I also prefer Oblivion in pretty much every way aside from the leveling mechanics. It has better looking gear, more enemy variety, bigger cities, and you can make way better looking characters. Sure the Oblivion NPCs look kind of goofy, but at least they don't all look like dirty meth addicts. I prefer Bretons, but the options in Skyrim are limited and all come with giant creased foreheads.
 

Jandau

Smug Platypus
Dec 19, 2008
5,034
0
0
The one problem with Skyrim mages (at least at release, haven't played it since) is that magic scales like crap. What does that mean? It means that a spell does a set amount of damage and that's it. It doesn't improve much with levels (some perks and items provide some boosts), while weapon damage can get to insane levels once you start upgrading your items, enchanting them, etc. As a result, mages at higher levels would wind up slowly wearing enemies down, while fighters and rogues would just start swinging with their fully upgraded Deadric swords and 2-shot dragons (1-shot with a decent sneak attack).

The one problem with Oblivion's mages is that they are stuck in a crappy game. Granted, this is more down to the fact that I hate Oblivion and think it's the worst entry in the series...