Managing Party Members in an RPG (pls no)

[Arnoxthe1]

Of all the RPG problems I've seen, this is by far one of the most egregious. However, ironically, some players like this. So what is it I'm speaking of exactly? Well, it's very simple. It's managing your party. Specifically their inventory and their class build. You see, I don't mind doing this for my own character at all really. In fact, in some aspects, I enjoy it. However, when I have to manage a party, I immediately start getting bored.

What can make this even MORE of a headache are the Diablo-style loot systems. You know what I'm talking about. The loot system that FLOODS you with vendor trash but you have to go through every fucking equipment piece just to make sure that it isn't a couple points higher or whatever. It's dumb. It breaks up the pace. It's freaking boring. It needs to stop. Now, I don't actually have a problem with auto-generated loot. What I do have a problem with is spamming me with equipment that, quite literally, 90% of the time is only good for the gold it gets you when you sell it. The loot that you get should at least 50% of the time have some good use other than getting sold. If it's less than that, you need to redesign the system.

But as we were saying. The thing is, when I make my character in character creation, it's my character. I have an emotional investment in that character because he/she is me. As such, I am interested in building up me. When I have to babysit another character and make sure they actually get through battles along with everyone else, it's boring. It's like being forced to play a game of D&D but you have to play four different people's characters at once. And if any one of them die, you can't progress. That's awful.

And this is part of the reason why I like Elder Scrolls as an RPG. You are expected to build up and play yourself. That's all you're expected to do. Don't want a party member? That's perfectly fine. You can ignore them literally your entire playthrough of the game. As opposed to something like Tyranny or Dragon Age... Don't want a party member in those games? TOO BAD. Babysit them or you don't go any further.

So how can we fix this? Well, it's actually kind of easy. Just allow the player two options once they get a member into their party. They can have the game manage that party member automatically or the player can do it themselves. Simple as that. That way, you're not forced to comb through equipment for your party. You're not forced to play them the correct way or any way at all. You can do whatever you want.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

That's half the fun because through management you can play the game in unique ways that are simply not possible from a creativity aspect otherwise. Also, the act itself is fun, the act of messing around with numbers and gear and class builds to discover new combinations. It's a form of exploration but one purely done through the combination of mechanics and gear/abilities augmenting them.


Now, the loot system in Diablo has the issue of having so much gear that none of it feels particularly special or unique since you almost always will get something better soon enough, but if we're talking about dragon age (origins being the only one I played) I absolutely loved that game's system. You could do some really cool stuff like have a party member be a ranger who summons a bear and another one could be a blood mage who uses the life of an ally for mana and instead of killing your important teammates, you can just use the blood of a bear instead. Such cool combinations are the height of fun of typical Wrpg-ish style games for me.


Skyrim has the issue of most gear feeling samey and just better in a linear way. I want thing to be better but also different such that the gameplay will be varied from one build to the next. Skyrim focuses too much on a few "core" playstyles and does them well but for someone looking to find out their own playstyle which is outside of what the devs thought up the game will become boring.

 

[Zhukov]

I don't mind managing multiple characters, especially in turn-based games.

Fully agree on the loot systems though. They're shit, adding nothing but tedium. People act like they're some great fountain of depth, but mostly you're just replacing numbers with higher numbers. Occasionally you'll have to choose between a mace that does more damage and one that does less but gives +2 strength or whatever, but who cares because in half an hour you'll find one that does even more damage and gives +3 strength.

 

[meiam]

So how can we fix this? Well, it's actually kind of easy. Just allow the player two options once they get a member into their party. They can have the game manage that party member automatically or the player can do it themselves. Simple as that. That way, you're not forced to comb through equipment for your party. You're not forced to play them the correct way or any way at all. You can do whatever you want.

Please no, this results in two outcome, either the game is super easy so that player who don't manage inventory can still do just fine or managing inventory is so easy there's no reason to do it yourself and then it's just pointless and might has well not be in the game. Hell, in most game you can just play on easier difficulty and do just fine, I remember DA:I was so easy even on very high difficulty I didn't even bother resurrecting dead party member, pretty sure you could solo the game just fine. Most game are already easy enough as it is that you don't really need to worry too much about party gear, just check every blue moon to give them w/e is lying around your inventory.

Some game will cater to your taste, other won't, don't try to ruin other people fun.

 

[Saelune]

It just depends on how easy it is to move equipment between characters.

I love Mass Effect 1, I really do...but FUCK YOU for having to go to each character's individual lockers.

 

[Kyrian007]

I don't mind managing party members. Although I think Icewind Dale did this the best, you created the entire party. And as far as clicklooters like Diablo and Borderlands... really the dumbest thing about their loot systems is its effect on the in-game currency. Or rather, the fact that in-game currency is completely worthless in a system like that. Diablo, Borderlands... what is the point of money? Or picking something up that isn't better than what you have just to sell it? There will never be anything you could buy that won't get replaced 5 minutes later by something that is dropped as loot. That system made gold/cash so pointless that both games had to introduce new currency or systems in an effort to make picking up stuff even worthwhile.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

That's half the fun because through management you can play the game in unique ways that are simply not possible from a creativity aspect otherwise. Also, the act itself is fun, the act of messing around with numbers and gear and class builds to discover new combinations. It's a form of exploration but one purely done through the combination of mechanics and gear/abilities augmenting them.

But again though, I like doing this for my own character, because that's my character and I'm invested in them. With other party members, classes I perhaps didn't want to play are thrust upon me anyway and I'm expected to sort it out myself like a school bully demanding I do his homework for him. And the class some party members are that are the same as mine, I have to pretty much repeat my work I've already done with my main character. And you know what, if it was just the party member's build I had to worry about, it wouldn't be so bad, but with these usually atrocious loot systems, I'm also forced to search for pieces of gear that are adequate for other party members. Party members that, again, I don't care about at all, gameplay wise.

the game is super easy so that player who don't manage inventory can still do just fine

No. This is where the auto-managing needs to be balanced properly. It needs to be good enough so players aren't forced to think about it, yes, BUT just because something is a merely passable solution doesn't mean it is the BEST solution. This is where people who like to manage inventories can still shine. They can have the best solution if they're willing to put in the time.

Fully agree on the loot systems though. They're shit, adding nothing but tedium. People act like they're some great fountain of depth, but mostly you're just replacing numbers with higher numbers. Occasionally you'll have to choose between a mace that does more damage and one that does less but gives +2 strength or whatever, but who cares because in half an hour you'll find one that does even more damage and gives +3 strength.

^ This as well.

Borderlands... really the dumbest thing about their loot systems is its effect on the in-game currency. Or rather, the fact that in-game currency is completely worthless in a system like that.

I always said that Borderlands would be much better if all the weapons were just deleveled altogether.

 

[laggyteabag]

I always enjoyed managing the other party members.

I wouldn't be opposed to a system that say, gave them one piece of gear and then leveled it up with them, to appease those who don't care for it.

 

[DeadProxy]

Hey look, I'm doing one of those "quote and reply individual points" thingies.

What can make this even MORE of a headache are the Diablo-style loot systems.

When I come across this in games, it quickly becomes a non-issue. In the opening hours of a game, you need to compare everything to everything, but that changes once rarity levels get introduces and start dropping. Once that happens, everything below the highest tier you have is instantly worthless beyond it's gold value and that allows you to ignore most of the loot you have until a blue, red, or purple thing shows up, or it's just been so long since you upgraded that commons are finally out-performing you cause you haven't picked up anything actually worthwhile in hours. That's how I played Inquisition. If I picked up something and it wasn't a purple rare, it didn't get a second glance because I knew it wouldn't compare.
If even 50% of the loot was worthwhile, then I'd be swapping out equipment every 20 minutes for marginal increases instead of using the stuff that works for about 2-3 hours before selling it all anyway.

I am interested in building up me. When I have to babysit another character and make sure they actually get through battles along with everyone else, it's boring.

Outside of turn-based games, I agree with this. In Inquisition, I did not like how the game handled controlling everyone, and how basic battles would last 20 minutes with micromanaging movements and yelling at the game to do what I was telling it to do, so I just let them do whatever and only took control if someone was about to die, or was being a retarded mage and attacking something 2 feet in front of them.

So how can we fix this? They can have the game manage that party member automatically or the player can do it themselves.

This is a function in plenty of games, but it doesn't really help out you as a character. When you have the freedom to level up your party members, you get the ability to have them compliment your skills and abilities, instead of having to constantly look for situations to use 4 abilities you're familiar with and the grab bag that your party members have.

All that being said...on regular difficulties, these issues are hardly even issues, since brute force can win you 70% of the games you play these days.

 

[CaitSeith]

So how can we fix this?

Some RPGs have "Optimize equipment" option in the Equipment menu. Unless that isn't the standard, you don't fix it; because for lots of people it isn't even broken.

 

[sageoftruth]

That's half the fun because through management you can play the game in unique ways that are simply not possible from a creativity aspect otherwise. Also, the act itself is fun, the act of messing around with numbers and gear and class builds to discover new combinations. It's a form of exploration but one purely done through the combination of mechanics and gear/abilities augmenting them.

But again though, I like doing this for my own character, because that's my character and I'm invested in them. With other party members, classes I perhaps didn't want to play are thrust upon me anyway and I'm expected to sort it out myself like a school bully demanding I do his homework for him. And the class some party members are that are the same as mine, I have to pretty much repeat my work I've already done with my main character. And you know what, if it was just the party member's build I had to worry about, it wouldn't be so bad, but with these usually atrocious loot systems, I'm also forced to search for pieces of gear that are adequate for other party members. Party members that, again, I don't care about at all, gameplay wise.

I think you both have good points. Customizing your party to work together effectively can be fun, but it would be better if it was made less cumbersome.

This may have been your point the entire time. While I agree that optionally auto-managing the other characters' inventories would make it less of a chore, I think it should be very heavily customizable.
When you choose to auto-equip, there should be a sub-menu where you choose things like what special traits to prioritize. For instance, if you have a spellcaster, you may want him to prioritize items that give him extra magic damage, or a higher capacity for spellcasting.
It would probably be a complex menu, and a complex algorithm though. You wouldn't want him equipping dropping his chainmail to wear a tube top with +500 magic, unless you don't expect him to ever get hit.
Regardless, I agree that an auto-manager could come in handy, especially for managing an overflowing abundance of loot.
I'm not as sure when it comes to skills however. Unless group cohesion is not an important part of the battles, you'd probably want a tight control on what skills your party members use and learn.

 

[Bad Jim]

Two more options:

1) Standardize the vendor trash. If you pick up a hundred basic swords, all identical, you can easily determine whether they should be sold. If they are stackable, it's even easier. If your party has 4 members max then you can sell at least 96 of those basic swords without even looking.

Typically, games fail here by having so many types of vendor trash that it's difficult to remember whether that thing you've picked up is trash. Then they add color coding, but there is still lots of trash colored as valuable and often a few rare, desirable items colored as vendor trash.

2) Easy comparison with the whole party. You should have a compare option that puts an item's stats on the screen along with the stats for every item in the same slot being used by party members. What you usually have to do is cycle through every party member and look at their stuff one by one. Developers seem to delight in wasting as much screen space as possible when what you really want in this situation is a big spreadsheet. Bonus points if you can select multiple items for the same slot and put their stats on screen along with what the party is using.

 

[iwinatlife]

See i love party management because i am a freak so some of my favorite games are ones like FFT where you can really customize everyone or all the micromanaging of XCOM equipment and I am a complete freak and loved all the options in Dragon age origins and original mass effect didnt even mind the menus.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

What can make this even MORE of a headache are the Diablo-style loot systems. You know what I'm talking about. The loot system that FLOODS you with vendor trash but you have to go through every fucking equipment piece just to make sure that it isn't a couple points higher or whatever. It's dumb. It breaks up the pace. It's freaking boring. It needs to stop. Now, I don't actually have a problem with auto-generated loot. What I do have a problem with is spamming me with equipment that, quite literally, 90% of the time is only good for the gold it gets you when you sell it. The loot that you get should at least 50% of the time have some good use other than getting sold. If it's less than that, you need to redesign the system.

This one of the main reasons I skip over LOTS of RPGs nowadays, I HATE pointless inventory management. The core reason why this happens is because weapons are how you increase your damage instead of leveling itself being why you increase your damage. Getting +1 daggers every half hour and having to replace your current weapon for a better one constantly is needless, it wastes my time and doesn't add any depth to the game whatsoever. Borderlands is a perfect example of this garbage. You play a fun mission or 2 with your friends and then the experience immediately comes to a halt as everybody has to go and sell all their garbage and equip their new better stuff. What's the point in actually getting an great gun drop for that gun to be useless in a couple hours? I understand playing for end-game loot as that can't really become useless (at least until Gearbox ups the level cap in an expansion).

I'm not the biggest Souls fan here but those games actually do it right. You get "generic" souls for every kill allowing you to buy or level whatever the hell you want instead of getting constant weapon or equipment drops, which usually end up being sold for money. Getting souls to be used as money cuts out the middle man of me constantly filling up my inventory and me constantly having to sell all the garbage. In a Souls game, you upgrade your stats or weapons to increase damage, you don't find "better" weapons. Even in DnD, you don't really get new weapons much and the main way your character ups their damage is through leveling whether a rogue getting more dice for their sneak attack, a wizard getting access to more powerful spells, or a ranger getting more shots per turn.

Even the most acclaimed RPG, Witcher 3 does this core concept wrong. However, Horizon Zero Dawn actually did weapons properly, you only had 3 tiers of each weapon and getting a upgraded version of any weapon didn't up your base damage.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

That's half the fun because through management you can play the game in unique ways that are simply not possible from a creativity aspect otherwise. Also, the act itself is fun, the act of messing around with numbers and gear and class builds to discover new combinations. It's a form of exploration but one purely done through the combination of mechanics and gear/abilities augmenting them.

But again though, I like doing this for my own character, because that's my character and I'm invested in them. With other party members, classes I perhaps didn't want to play are thrust upon me anyway and I'm expected to sort it out myself like a school bully demanding I do his homework for him. And the class some party members are that are the same as mine, I have to pretty much repeat my work I've already done with my main character. And you know what, if it was just the party member's build I had to worry about, it wouldn't be so bad, but with these usually atrocious loot systems, I'm also forced to search for pieces of gear that are adequate for other party members. Party members that, again, I don't care about at all, gameplay wise.

I'm used to thinking of none of the characters as "mine" due to being a Jrpg fan and Jrpgs tend to have well defined protagonists and not an empty role that you put yourself in. Due to that, I don't really differentiate between the protagonist and other party members on the basis of who they act as a fantasy of. I think of even the MC as his own entity in the world, a very silent, dull entity.


And again, it's not work, it's part of the fun. Being able to try various configurations without having to undo what I already did by having more chars to work with is just great fun. If you think of it as work and not as exploration of interesting mechanics then the genre is just not your cup of tea I'd wager.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

What's wrong with you? I fucking love managing my party in an RPG. That's like 80% of the gameplay.

Spoiler: Like so.

 

[Wrex Brogan]

To be honest, I don't really manage my party members very well in Western RPGs (In JRPGs I fucking min-max those fuckers like the filthy munchkin that I am, but that's another thing entirely) - take Dragon Age, for example. I literally just fill in their abilities and dump all stat points into whatever was highest for 'em at the start. Equipment? Ehhh, they can have whatever my character doesn't need to wear. Tactics? Fuck it, the AI's doing good enough, I don't have to touch shit.

Seriously, when I finished Inquisition I think the only people who had full equipment slots was my character, Varric and Cassandra. Iron Bull was still wearing his starting gear because, hey, those big two-handed axes sell for a lot of money.

I don't mind managing multiple characters, especially in turn-based games.

Fully agree on the loot systems though. They're shit, adding nothing but tedium. People act like they're some great fountain of depth, but mostly you're just replacing numbers with higher numbers. Occasionally you'll have to choose between a mace that does more damage and one that does less but gives +2 strength or whatever, but who cares because in half an hour you'll find one that does even more damage and gives +3 strength.

I don't hate loot systems, but I hate how they're implemented most of the time. Like... why is there vendor trash? What's the point of having a hundred iterations of starting-level equipment that drops right up into the end-game? Why is there a bunch of side-grade weapons that I'll never use over the clear upgrade?

I like JRPG weapon systems (for the most part) since they cut all that shit out, with most having a clear weapon tiering system. Here's the +18 sword, here's the +22 sword, then there's the +28 sword with fire damage. Western RPGs have too much 'This sword has +5 strength, but this sword has +3 strength and ignores 22% of enemy armour, while this sword is +7 agility but deals 50% shock damage and has a 12% chance of draining 18 mana per swing'. Just... give me a clear progression of strength, don't make me sit there with a calculator trying to figure out which is optimum for which character dammit.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

So how can we fix this? Well, it's actually kind of easy. Just allow the player two options once they get a member into their party. They can have the game manage that party member automatically or the player can do it themselves. Simple as that. That way, you're not forced to comb through equipment for your party. You're not forced to play them the correct way or any way at all. You can do whatever you want.

I have a few more alternative propositions:

1. Limit the amount of gear your other party members have. The player character can have the full set, whereas NPC members have 1 weapon slot, and 1 armor slot. Or limit the gear to 2 pieces for all characters, like in Final Fantasy X.

2. Limit the amount of available equipment to like 10 pieces for each type, but make each one distinct, and with clear strengths and drawbacks. Witcher 3 had the right idea with the Witcher gear sets, but didn't quite have the chutzpah to go that far. The amount of available armors serves little purpose, since once you get out of Velen, you essentially wear the same armor set for the rest of the game. Which also ties to my third point below.

3. Remove changing equipment altogether, and just have an upgrade system where each tier clearly increases the gear's strength as well as noticeably changes their appearance. That way the player is freed from inventory management and the vendor trash problem, but can still have the impossibly ornate end game armors. Again I refer to the Witcher gear sets in Witcher 3. They look only a tad more refined than the average gear you find in their first tier, but by the Grandmaster stage look insanely badass and detailed, as well as unlock new abilities and bonuses.

I also think color coding the gear to indicate it's superiority or inferiority to your current one should be a mandatory industry standard. Dragon Age doesn't do this, and I have to squint at the tiny text only to see that the weapon does 0.4 more damage than my current one.

Talking about this reminds me of Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, a game I love but haven't played in years. It holds the staggering number of having to individually equip and keep track of the abilities of up to 24 different characters, though you only use a maximum of six at a time. Thankfully it doesn't devolve into absolute micromanagement nightmare, since each piece of equipment is clearly distinct, you only have truckloads of them by the endgame, and most changes in equipment are just weapons anyway.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

I don't know if Mass Effect>2's party member system is good or not.

On one hand, you get so much EXP during the game you can pretty much just pick whatever skill or upgrade you want. It's not even permanent, you can literally strip all the skill points from a character and assign them again. No hassle and you barely think about it.

On the other hand, its so mindless you might as well not have it in the game at all.

 

[SmugFrog]

Oh wow this thread really goes down the rabbit hole. Well, let's dive into this thing shall we?

The loot that you get should at least 50% of the time have some good use other than getting sold. If it's less than that, you need to redesign the system.

So what you're saying is that 1 of every 2 items should have some use - does that mean equipping it? Breaking it down into components (which is a whole other problem because now you're managing components instead of just straight currency)? If I have to stop to see if every other item is worthwhile for this alternate use rather than the usual let's look at everything after a battle, it's going to get old really quickly. The offset is you could set your loot drop rate to be insanely low - but that kind of takes away the point of these games where loot flies at you like it's Christmas and you grab or check it as you go. Especially as you level up in a harder mode and need those lower level items (whites, greens) that are better than your older legendary items, that method would get very annoying. I haven't played Diablo 3, but I like Borderland's way of giving you a quick indication of what a weapon does compared to your equipped weapon. You can, most of the time, immediately tell if it's something you want to take or not.

Just allow the player two options once they get a member into their party.

I do kind of like that - if the player-character is you, and you want to work alone, why not? It would probably make the game more difficult, not having support class with you but it should be your choice.

Some game will cater to your taste, other won't, don't try to ruin other people fun.

This is like what Dreiko and Zhukov said - basically if it's not your thing, don't play it. There are some of us who enjoy going through and customizing the armor/weapons/equipment and deciding what a character is going to use. I like doing it in Skyrim, but as you pointed out Arnoxthe1, the companions are optional there.

It just depends on how easy it is to move equipment between characters.

I love Mass Effect 1, I really do...but FUCK YOU for having to go to each character's individual lockers.

I had forgotten about that. :O Oh how inventory management in ME1 was such a pain. Bioware never did figure out a way to do it well, though they improved it in the later games (ME:A I haven't played).

I always said that Borderlands would be much better if all the weapons were just deleveled altogether.

So basically you want someone to just have the best items in the game right away? I recently picked up Borderlands 2 and in looking for players all I see is posts about "Power level me!" or "Loot drops / duping!" - all I want to do is play the game and enjoy it. If I had someone give me the best weapons/equipment at the start of a new character that kind of takes away part of the Borderlands experience. I started a new commando and found an extremely overpowered legendary item that I'll probably use for 20 levels. That's pretty awesome, and its neat to see it happen. Why not just use a save/charactor-editor and give yourself the best weapons and stats so you don't have to worry about playing and leveling up and finding loot?

Hey look, I'm doing one of those "quote and reply individual points" thingies.

Stop it. It's annoying and no one should do that...