I remember a game from awhile back that actually did have what you decried with the magazines right out of the box. I don't recall the name but I know it was a tactical police shooter, if that helps.
Marine Mike Reviews: Magazines and Reloading
- Thread starter Marine Mike
- Start date
Someone mentioned SWAT 4 earlier in this thread, they did just about everything right except I think the round in the chamber after a tactical reload.Wardog13 said:
I agree that more developers should put in the +1 top off. It would be nice. The article brings to mind bad company 2. Yes... Im a medic with a machinegun and I'm only carrying one box of ammo... I guess its for balancing purposes but you can use the SAW in game and it eats ammo like no ones business.
There are five type of reloads. Four of which is shown in the video link below. The one that isn't shown is called administrate reload. Administrate reloads is just loading your weapon in a non-combat/non-stress situation. It is require to do a press check. A press check is to check if the round is loaded into firearm properly.
http://rpginn.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=953&Itemid=39
1. Speed reload. It is the fastest of the five type of reloads. You drop the magazine on the ground and insert a new one.
2. Emergency reload or slide lock (video) is the second fastest reload of the five. Your firearm ran empty. You notice by checking the chamber. Drop the empty magazine to the ground and reload with a fresh magazine.
3. Tactical reload is the third fastest and of the four. It has the greatest chance of fumbling both magazine to the ground. Grab a fresh magazine form the pouch. With the same hand take the use magazine out and place the new one into the firearm. Then place the use one back into the pouch.
4. Reload with retention is the slowest of the four but it has less chance of fumbling then tactical reload. You take your use magazine out place it in the pouch. Take a new one out and insert it into the firearm.
Of the four, tactical reloads and reloads with retention should not be use in an active firefight. You should only use those two when in cover and the shooting dies down. You should only do speed or emergency (gun run dry) reloads in an active gun fight.
This Marine got paralyzed for life because he did a reload with retention in an active gun fight. His after action report.
http://firearmsandtraining.blogspot.com/2009/10/wounded-marine-lessons-learned-in.html
http://rpginn.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=953&Itemid=39
1. Speed reload. It is the fastest of the five type of reloads. You drop the magazine on the ground and insert a new one.
2. Emergency reload or slide lock (video) is the second fastest reload of the five. Your firearm ran empty. You notice by checking the chamber. Drop the empty magazine to the ground and reload with a fresh magazine.
3. Tactical reload is the third fastest and of the four. It has the greatest chance of fumbling both magazine to the ground. Grab a fresh magazine form the pouch. With the same hand take the use magazine out and place the new one into the firearm. Then place the use one back into the pouch.
4. Reload with retention is the slowest of the four but it has less chance of fumbling then tactical reload. You take your use magazine out place it in the pouch. Take a new one out and insert it into the firearm.
Of the four, tactical reloads and reloads with retention should not be use in an active firefight. You should only use those two when in cover and the shooting dies down. You should only do speed or emergency (gun run dry) reloads in an active gun fight.
This Marine got paralyzed for life because he did a reload with retention in an active gun fight. His after action report.
http://firearmsandtraining.blogspot.com/2009/10/wounded-marine-lessons-learned-in.html
Well, for starters I'd like to know your sources for this information and if you have any experience doing any of these actions. Second, I'm not entirely convinced that that Marine or his testimony is even real, it just reads like a shameless advertisement for a marksmanship course.jdun said:
I can now say with complete confidence that had I somehow been able to attend a TRICON class (or similar training class offered by another quality instructor) before I deployed to war, and had been able to learn all of the things taught by Jeff Gonzales in this carbine course I recently took here in Houston, I would NOT have been shot the way I was on that Sunday afternoon in Iraq.Note that this story includes neither a rank, last name, or any indication of unit designation.
If his story is true then his decision to keep his magazine was the least of his concerns.
First: He makes no mention of any of his other 54 member of his platoon being in the same vicinity of him, Marines operate in 4-man fire teams that support each other at all times. Two to three fire teams make up an infantry squad that each of the teams support each other at all times... get where I'm going with this? He was alone because he was not working as a part of his fire team, and that is the quickest way to get yourself killed.
Second: He claims to never have been drilled in reloading, yet claims to be an 0311 which is the MOS code for Rifleman. Do you really think someone who's job is to use a rifle in combat would not be trained to properly reload?
Third: He claims to have fired between 5 and 7 rounds at an enemy at a range of 15 yards and only hit him once... we zero our rifles at 36 yards on a 8x11" piece of paper, at 15 yards you don't even have to use the sights!!
I could go on with this all day long; find me a rank, name, and unit if this guy is real and then I'll be more than happy to point out in excruciating detail how this guy making it into the Marine Corps was a mistake and his recruiter should be sent to court-martial.
Now, sorry if this seems rude, but your list may sound good in theory but it is a bunch of crap when applied to a combat situation.
Of the four, tactical reloads and reloads with retention should not be use in an active firefight. You should only use those two when in cover and the shooting dies down. You should only do speed or emergency (gun run dry) reloads in an active gun fight.
Immediate action for coming under fire (the start of an active firefight) is to seek cover and then set up a base of fire, therefore you will more than likely already be in cover when you have to reload. On top of that, when doing a tactical reload it is simply stupid to replace your spent magazine back into your magazine pouch when you can just drop it into a drop pouch specifically designed for magazine retention. We are also taught during training that the actions to take while reloading are, in order:
-take a knee and drop spent magazine while pulling fresh mag out of pouch
-slap new magazine into weapon
-hit bolt release
-continue firing while picking up spent magazine and stowing it in drop pouch or cargo pocket
The actual magazine retention part only comes after your weapon is back up and putting rounds downrange, so it doesn't actually take more time than dropping the mag and leaving it. You should always practice magazine retention except for dire circumstances. You may wish you review the sources of your information, because bad advice can be more harmful than none at all... especially when it comes to combat.
You are a Marine and I assumed that you have an understanding that you should always be in cover (if possible) in an active firefight. I didn't have to spell it out to you but if you want I could.
I have over 20 years of experience in shooting, competitions, and whatever. I own 8 complete AR15, seven of them I built with my own hand. I also have large number of firearms.
Reload with retention is the slowest of the four. It's only saving grace is that you have a lesser of a chance to fumble in a stressful situtration than tactical reload and probably the reason why the military keep teaching it. In today modern private firearms schools like blackwater don't touch as nearly as they did in the past with tactical or retention reloads. They drill you on speed and emergency reloads. The only time you do tactical or retention reloads when in cover and the fighting is abated.
The US military is behind the curve in combat training at least 10 years. It a brutal secret that the US military does not even come close to giving the best firearms training that it could. It is a huge institution and change will always comes in small slow packages. Only special operators are getting up to day techniques from the private sectors.
Most military personnel that I know have little understanding of how the weapon function and lack the up to date techniques. They only know what weapons they are train in but does not know how it work.
As a fellow Marine I am surprise that you treated a gravely injured Marine so badly. He is a real Marine. There is no political or monetary reason for him to make this up. It was for a small group within the firearm community to read.
You can go to any Marine Corp forums, any gunboard, any gun blog, and they will verified it. Christ and Travis from Magpul Dynamic will verified. They are the ones that was training and updating his techniques and because of them two he decided to write his after action report.
Both Christ and Travis train Special Operators, to law enforcement, to PSD, etc. They are well known and respected in the combat training school community. Travis saw heavy fighting in Iraq as a blackwater contractor and Christ was head of his anti-terrorist squad at the Department of Homeland Security.
Go take Magpul Dynamic class or any private firearm training school and you will understand how far behind the curve you have been.
BTW this came up on arfcom where current and former military personnel disusing why so many of their peers has very little basic knowledge in firearms. It titled "Whats up with military guys not knowing a damn thing about guns?"
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1034391&page=1
I have over 20 years of experience in shooting, competitions, and whatever. I own 8 complete AR15, seven of them I built with my own hand. I also have large number of firearms.
Reload with retention is the slowest of the four. It's only saving grace is that you have a lesser of a chance to fumble in a stressful situtration than tactical reload and probably the reason why the military keep teaching it. In today modern private firearms schools like blackwater don't touch as nearly as they did in the past with tactical or retention reloads. They drill you on speed and emergency reloads. The only time you do tactical or retention reloads when in cover and the fighting is abated.
The US military is behind the curve in combat training at least 10 years. It a brutal secret that the US military does not even come close to giving the best firearms training that it could. It is a huge institution and change will always comes in small slow packages. Only special operators are getting up to day techniques from the private sectors.
Most military personnel that I know have little understanding of how the weapon function and lack the up to date techniques. They only know what weapons they are train in but does not know how it work.
As a fellow Marine I am surprise that you treated a gravely injured Marine so badly. He is a real Marine. There is no political or monetary reason for him to make this up. It was for a small group within the firearm community to read.
You can go to any Marine Corp forums, any gunboard, any gun blog, and they will verified it. Christ and Travis from Magpul Dynamic will verified. They are the ones that was training and updating his techniques and because of them two he decided to write his after action report.
Both Christ and Travis train Special Operators, to law enforcement, to PSD, etc. They are well known and respected in the combat training school community. Travis saw heavy fighting in Iraq as a blackwater contractor and Christ was head of his anti-terrorist squad at the Department of Homeland Security.
Go take Magpul Dynamic class or any private firearm training school and you will understand how far behind the curve you have been.
BTW this came up on arfcom where current and former military personnel disusing why so many of their peers has very little basic knowledge in firearms. It titled "Whats up with military guys not knowing a damn thing about guns?"
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=1034391&page=1
Again, I apologize if this seems rude. You could have 50 years shooting experience, be an Olympic marksman, attend every marksmanship course available, and own every model of gun in the world; but none of that will ever equate to combat experience, and therefore reloading in combat. While your suggestions may be the best choice for competitions, that certainly doesn't mean its best or even a good idea in a combat zone.jdun said:
While you may be correct that most military personnel do not receive adequate firearms training, this is because most military personnel's firearms are not an integral part of their job. Infantry such as myself and the alleged Marine in the story, however, went to the School of Infantry after Boot Camp; this is far more advanced weapons training than Boot Camp. Once out of SOI and into your permanent duty station you continually train your skills and attend the Enhanced Marksmanship Program. EMP focuses on a number of skills such as advancing while firing, firing on multiple threats, squaring your armor off with the target (remember that story saying it was a technique only learned at so-and-so's marksmanship course?), and reloading drills while advancing and firing while retaining your magazine.jdun said:
Plus I don't think these private marksmanship courses are all that advanced when you're saying they focus primarily on speed and emergency reloading. I mentioned in my last post that a speed reload is not any faster than a tactical reload since all you do is drop the mag, reload, and then pick up the magazine as you continue firing... your weapon is not down for any longer than it would be for a speed reload, so why insist on discarding a magazine when it doesn't take any longer to just keep it?
A comparison of speed reload vs. tactical reload:
For easy reference green will mean ready to fire.
Speed Reload
1. Drop magazine while taking a knee (presenting a smaller target).
2. Remove new magazine from pouch.
3. Insert new magazine into weapon.
4. Send the bolt home and continue firing.
5. Stand up and continue to advance.
Tactical Reload
1. Drop magazine while taking a knee (presenting a smaller target).
2. Remove new magazine from pouch.
3. Insert new magazine into weapon.
4. Send bolt home and continue firing.
5. Pick up magazine as you stand up and continue to advance.
jdun said:
As a fellow Infantry Marine I know we pride ourselves in our marksmanship, teamwork, coordination, and adaptability among other things. By the evidence of his own story he missed repeatedly at point-blank range, traveled into a hostile area without the support of his team, did not coordinate a base of fire for his maneuver; and as for his adaptability he failed to quickly respond to neither his weapon being empty or the appearance of another enemy. I have enough respect for the Marine Corps to believe that the Marine in the story does not exist. Also to further my skepticism:
(just FYI, I was a "double-award" Expert marksman as well, which means jack shit in combat)
This may seem like a trivial thing... but you qualify on the range as either a Rifle Expert, Sharpshooter, or Marksman. There is no "Expert marksman", nor is there a "double-award" its called "second award". Anyways, if he is real then give me a last name and a rank or unit. I have access to Marine Online, which is a secure site with a personnel locator that will tell me what I need to know with that information. Until then it still just seems too much like an ad for a marksmanship course.
Hey marine mike I really like these reviews. You should add Rainbow Six to you're did it right list. It gives the number of rounds in magazines and how many magazines. Bullets dont magically hop to one magazine and you end up with 5 magazines at half capacity switching between them
I actually really liked the Gear of War reloading system, rewards you for paying attention but doesn't really punish for ignoring it.bloob said:
Now...I'm merely a civilian with a rudimentary understanding of tactics, but I'm pretty sure that anyone who misses 5 times a 15 yards is truly incompetent.
Speaking as someone who used a soviet-issue AKM assault rifle with iron sights, and could happily perforate a man-sized target with automatic fire at 100 yards with a four-round or three-round burst, he must have been terrified or concussed. I mean, I was not being shot at at the time, but I literally shouldered the rifle and shot, and hit at least once, usually twice. Again - fully automatic, AKM, heavier, cruder rifle, more recoil and more muzzle jump than an M16. I mean, if he was injured, his patrol had been disabled and he was massively outnumbered, then fair enough.
What bemuses me is the debate about the fastest reload time. Now, if you've just been shot at, I'd assume the very first thing you do is sprint for the nearest cover and begin strafing your assailant with automatic or semiautomatic fire.
Now, let's assess this. You want to keep a high rate of fire and relative precision at any range, yes. But surely the question is not what is the fastest reload, but the most reliable? Half a second shaved off every reload time is hardly worth it if a sloppy reload jams your weapon, and in a protracted engagement you probably want to make sure your men are not dropping magazines everywhere unless it's absolutely necessary?
Wait, foolish RT. A dropped mag is not going to be put back. So not much chance of fouling there.
As for how weapons work? Chemical reaction produces explosion. Explosion propels metal object out of barrel. Rifling puts spin on that metal object, keeping the flight path level. Gas blowback is used to cock the bolt back for the next shot. Deceleration of bullet through tissue causes tissue damage, leading to shock, blood loss, organ damage and possible death.
Speaking as someone who used a soviet-issue AKM assault rifle with iron sights, and could happily perforate a man-sized target with automatic fire at 100 yards with a four-round or three-round burst, he must have been terrified or concussed. I mean, I was not being shot at at the time, but I literally shouldered the rifle and shot, and hit at least once, usually twice. Again - fully automatic, AKM, heavier, cruder rifle, more recoil and more muzzle jump than an M16. I mean, if he was injured, his patrol had been disabled and he was massively outnumbered, then fair enough.
What bemuses me is the debate about the fastest reload time. Now, if you've just been shot at, I'd assume the very first thing you do is sprint for the nearest cover and begin strafing your assailant with automatic or semiautomatic fire.
Now, let's assess this. You want to keep a high rate of fire and relative precision at any range, yes. But surely the question is not what is the fastest reload, but the most reliable? Half a second shaved off every reload time is hardly worth it if a sloppy reload jams your weapon, and in a protracted engagement you probably want to make sure your men are not dropping magazines everywhere unless it's absolutely necessary?
Wait, foolish RT. A dropped mag is not going to be put back. So not much chance of fouling there.
As for how weapons work? Chemical reaction produces explosion. Explosion propels metal object out of barrel. Rifling puts spin on that metal object, keeping the flight path level. Gas blowback is used to cock the bolt back for the next shot. Deceleration of bullet through tissue causes tissue damage, leading to shock, blood loss, organ damage and possible death.
Now you can see why I was more than a bit suspicious of the story, especially since Marines are trained to hit a man sized target at up to 500 meters with iron sights. As for the dropped mags, you learn to love your magazines like an extension of your weapon. A lot of us bought good magazines or put better parts in the standard issue ones, and none of us wanted to see an insurgent using those mags to kill your friends (Either as an IED or with an M4 or M16... or M249, which I know for a fact at least one is unaccounted for in Fallujah).Rolling Thunder said:
Yeah. Now, I am sceptical of the United States Marines claim to be the greatest sharpshooters in history (or maybe just USMC fanboys who claim this), but I would certainly not expect them to demonstrate less shooting proficiency than me, untrained, 18-year old civilian with no prior weapons training, being given a few minutes explanation on the mechanics and how to use it without being a danger to myself and others, and then being put on a range.Marine Mike said:
Also, if you're using standard-issue magazines, you're probably going to annoy the QM if you keep wasting them. So I'd guess it's best to take the extra half-second to reload your weapon carefully, unless you're reloading out in the open....which makes me wonder...why are you standing out in the open?
Actually, Battlefield 2 and 2142 use the magazine system. Where you have magazines, not individual rounds.
Granted the amount you have is a little questionable sometimes, like only 2 pistol magazines (not counting the magazine loaded into the gun). But I think its starts you off with 3-5 for the M16/M4/whatever the army your playing as "main gun" is.
Nice review, and just thought I'd share that.
Granted the amount you have is a little questionable sometimes, like only 2 pistol magazines (not counting the magazine loaded into the gun). But I think its starts you off with 3-5 for the M16/M4/whatever the army your playing as "main gun" is.
Nice review, and just thought I'd share that.
Wow, this is awesome. I just went through 3 of your reivews. Most interesting thing in this article was the speed of reloading. I never knew that one could reload an assault rifle that fast! I knew pistols could but, even the M16!
Great review, on to... Grenades!
Great review, on to... Grenades!
I know this is kind of old now, but I doubt your friend really knows what he's on about.Sebenko said:
I've just finished reading Sniper One a bestselling account of front line combat by a British sniper platoon leader, and he says that "the standard drill was six magazines of thirty rounds each" so in that respect your friend is right, but "we always took out 10 per bloke, plus a bandoleer that held a further 150 rounds...That made a total of 450 rounds of ammunition per man."
I would imagine that's fairly representative of British soldiers. 6 magazines doesn't seem like a lot really, especially if you get into combat for an extended period of time. Not that I know much myself however
Marine Mike... your threads are probably my favorite threads on the site. Once again a fascinating read!