Masashi Kishimoto is a hack writer.

[FalloutJack]

Ah, well you see, that is why I made the decision to hate Naruto like it was Final Fantasy 8, because it's bad like that.

(DISCLAIMER: As I have gone into that on BOTH sides numerous times, I will only explain by request. It gets verbose.)

 

[DarthSka]

I was a huge Naruto fan during my high school years, and that carried over into college too. Now, I'm still a fan, but I don't indulge in it nearly as much as I used to. I've limited it to reading the newest chapter each week, and watching it on Toonami if I'm still awake. I'm hoping it will end soon, not because I don't like it, but because I don't see how they can take it anywhere meaningful after this huge war against such powerhouses like Madara. Just let him be Hokage, make some Naruto Jr's, and move on.

 

[Vausch]

Well, in defence, any series that goes on for this long is bond to suck. You can't really hold that against it, can you?

Is there any long running manga/anime that has a satisfying ending?

...

Exactly!

Would you consider FMA long running? Because the ending to the manga left me feeling quite satisfied.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Hehe, I remember back in 2003, back when nobody in America knew of Naruto, "holy crap, this ninja anime is really good!" we said. It was, it was.


I haven't kept with whatever happened after the 4 tails fight with Orochimaru in shippuuden, episode 90something, I'll eventually get back to it. I think that 2 year filler stretch between the timeskip kinda killed it for me. I do have a ton of fond memories of the series and of playing imported ps2 naruto fighting games back 10 years ago with my friends so I still have a spot in my heart for that original Japanese-language series with a whiny brat and no super saiyans.

 

[Hard-Target]

Years ago i stopped watching anime all together. I do keep up with a few manga but i don't read nowhere near as much as i did during my teens. That said naruto was one of the ones i used to fallow. I kept up with it all the way up to when they set out to rescue Sousuke the first time. After that *poof* i just stopped caring about the series. No reason really. I just dropped the series like it was hot coal. After i found out about all the hate the series seemed to get i felt liked i dogged a bullet honestly.

Now on to the topic, i do agree with most here that Kishi seems to be a competent enough writer that got pushed in over his head before he was ready. The early story lines were enjoyable from what i remember and some of the fights were clever. It takes a lot of talent to be able to maintain a piece of fiction for such a long time though, especially on a format that requires so much of your time and effort on a week to week bases. I feel that he should have ended the series while he still had a say on the matter, so he could develop his skills better before attempting such a level of commitment to his work.

i think that Long-runners like One Piece, Berserk, and Hajime No Ippo had an easier time maintaining their quality because there is a better sense of pace and scale. In One Piece it's not just the characters that are developed but the world itself as well. Each character, environment, and major event given is deeply rooted into the lore of the universe and the history behind it. We see different countries, cultures, and ideas clash and affect the characters.

Ippo and Berserk on the other hand are more about the career/life of the characters. Both series expand through the years of their respective leads. We see Guts from the moment of his birth, to his teens and early 20's as a member of the Hawks, to his mid to late 30's as the black swordsman. In Ippo's case we watch him go from a meek high school student to a world class level boxer in the span of a decade in story.

Kishimoto doesn't seem to be sure how to handle such a level of narrative....

 

[niknar266]

Ippo and Berserk on the other hand are more about the career/life of the characters. Both series expand through the years of their respective leads. We see Guts from the moment of his birth, to his teens and early 20's as a member of the Hawks, to his mid to late 30's as the black swordsman. In Ippo's case we watch him go from a meek high school student to a world class level boxer in the span of a decade in story.

Actually did you know even though all the crap Guts has been through he's only 22 apparently. I read it on a wiki site about the berserk timeline so take it with a grain of salt as someone might have got it wrong.

OT: I don't really think Kishimoto is a hack. Naruto just falls into the trap of most popular shounen running far too long it can't possibly end well. I also wonder how the popularity of Sasuke effected the series as there's multiple times when story focus is on him overall might have more story focus than Naruto himself. Hopefully though given the current state of the manga it well be over in a year or so if it doesn't decide to jump the shark more and introduce completely new villains to fight.

Also one of the other "Big Three" Bleach I really really want to end with Orihime fully realising her power to reject reality and negate the whole series - shinigami, soul society, hollows etc. don't exist. It'd be the ultimate troll ending and the fan rage would be really entertaining.

 

[AustinN]

Sooo... we had this little discussion about a month ago, about wheter or not Naruto was hated, and I answered that the reason I (and I suspect a lot of other people) dislike the series, is because it's become increasingly poorly written.

Well, guess what? Kishimoto just came out during the Shonen Jump held Jump Festa event, and admited that he had no f***ing clue how the main character is supposed to be able to defeat the main villain. He's out of ideas...

What. A. Piece. Of. Crap.

He's written himself into a corner, made his beloved Uchiha God Mode Sue too powerful, and now he's realised what every other person on the planet has: the main character can't win. This is worse than Aizen in Bleach, and will probably share that series retarded pre-timeskip conclusion as well...

Why did I ever even like this series?

What was wrong with the Aizen battle?! I mean, if it was rather quick and maybe anticlimactic, then sure. I get that. My brother agrees. I do a little too.

But I'd hardly call the conclusion so lame. Kubo had a plan for how Ichigo would win. A super awesome power-up that would have a big price. A very big price. Said price just happen to kick in at an inopportune time. And the rest? Well, that last factor should be somewhat expected too, I think. It's not like there couldn't have been a lead up.

A "little" anitclimactic? Seriously? After having been the main villain for five years, after taking out everything Soul Society had to throw at him, beating all of the captains, lieutenants and Visored, coming back from being disintigrated, Ichigo shows up and beats him in three chapters flat without even trying. Anticlimactic is a HUGE understatement.

And the Final Getsuga Tensho pretty obviously WASN'T planned. If it had been, it would've actually gotten some build up, but it came out of nowhere. Kubo did what Kishimoto has apparently done: he wrote himself into a corner by making the villain too powerful, and had to introduce a blatant Deus Ex Machina to resolve things.

The so called "price" means nothing either. Half of the time when Ichigo gets a power up, he loses it as soon as the fight's over, making it clear that it was just there for the sake of resolving whatever crisis Kubo couldn't resolve naturally. Heck, despite all of the talk about how powerful Ichigo COULD be, Kubo is so desperate to limit him that the story has had no fewer than FOUR different explanations as to why he can't access his full power. It's just sloppy.

 

[sumanoskae]

Naruto is the worst manga with the coolest premise I've ever seen; I hold out a small measure of hope that someday a better writer will rewrite the series.

You mean get the "Dangon Ball Z Kai" method... Call it "Naruto Revolution" or something... and its ending, yet predictable, is exceptional to what this rewrite is trying to do... (No filler... No BS...)

Same setting, same and/or similar characters, different plot.

Isn't Kai more of a re-edit? I'm talking about a remake.

 

[happyninja42]

I think the best solution, if he can't find a way for his hero to win, is to let him lose. Fight valiantly, spit in the eye of his opponent, with his dying breath, he stabs at thee. And then die.

I don't watch the show but sometimes constraints can be a good thing. Maybe he won't win, but will lose in an interesting way. Or through defeat attain victory, like luring him into an unsafe position, something like that.

No one likes to see a main character die but a self sacrifice to take out the big bad to end a show is not a terrible idea.

Yes, very much yes. I don't watch these shows, but I'm familiar enough with them to know he keeps rehashing the same setup over and over. But yeah, if he's made a boss that can't be beaten and survive...then don't let him survive. I mean, in history, and in legend, a lot of the really awesome stories about the heroes are the tale of their death. Their final battle against a foe, and how they went out. It would probably be his best course of action honestly.

 

[Hades]

I don't find Kishimoto a hack writer at all but I do find his writing can wildly vary from very good to just awful. The plot starts to suffer whenever Kishimoto brings up the Uchiha's, who are suddenly revealed to be behind everything that has gone on over the course of the plot, as well as being descendant's from the worlds founder and being heavily involved in coming up with the idea of setting up the ninja villages while also supplying the plot with three big villains.

On the other hand, when a character doesn't have red eyes and doesn't have the hole plot resolve around him they tend to get a lot more interesting. The ruthless elder Danzo became quite sympathetic towards he end, The second Hokage was a surprisingly effective version of the ''Good is not nice'' Trope and very well characterised for a dead side character and the cynical Onaki developed quite nicely into a character that really believes in all the villages working together as one. While its one of the reason the war arc dragged on as long as it did, I actually quite liked the idea of long dead heroes and leaders coming back to life as I fleshed out the world a bit more.

On the whole ''power creep'' thing: I actually think Naruto did a good job of avoiding that concept for a long time. Its only with Madara and the first Hokage that the power of certain characters started getting out of hand

Before the time skip increasingly more powerful villains where introduced but it was never the main cast's job to defeat any of those and they mostly dealt with the henchman closer to their level. while it was often up to a stronger side character to deal with the main villains.

After the time skip the new villain's that appeared weren't as strong as the previous ones and while the main character could fight Akatsuki themselves this time, it was once again not the main character but a more powerful side character that played a decisive role in defeating the arc's villain, Sasori.

Once the main cast started killing off Akatsuki members they started with the weaker ones like Hidan and Deidara, characters they should be able to defeat by that time in the plot. After that, Akatsuki leader Pain proves himself above everything they have faced before but not overly so. Pain is depicted as very powerful but the gap between him and other powerful characters is still realistic.

Main villain Tobi appears to be a complete subversion of the all powerful villain. Up until a recent event in the manga he comes off as skilled rather then strong as his moveset relies on warping around the battlefield rather then unleashing powerful attacks and when he finally engages in the heroes in combat he does so with powers stolen from someone else, channelled through materials supplied by another villain.

Its only when Madara shows up and defeats the five strongest ninja's alive without breaking a sweat before taking on Naruto and the entire armies of five nations that a villains power becomes truly ridicules.

 

[FPLOON]

Naruto is the worst manga with the coolest premise I've ever seen; I hold out a small measure of hope that someday a better writer will rewrite the series.

You mean get the "Dangon Ball Z Kai" method... Call it "Naruto Revolution" or something... and its ending, yet predictable, is exceptional to what this rewrite is trying to do... (No filler... No BS...)

Same setting, same and/or similar characters, different plot.

Isn't Kai more of a re-edit? I'm talking about a remake.

Well, considering Naruto used to be about the dude becoming Hokage (because I would be lying if I said that I still believe that's still the actual end-goal of the series), then yeah... "Re-edit" the shit out of Naruto... since most of the problems I see with the series sterns from stuff NOT even remotely relating to Naruto becoming Hokage... (unless I'm missing something here...)

As for a Naruto remake with a different plot... Like what? Naruto NOT wanting to become Hokage or something "better" than him wanting to become Hokage... Or just having better sub-plots than what we have now, because that I can fully agree with in terms of the "remake"...

(I think I'm still confusing "remake" with "re-edit"... or vise versa...)

 

[sumanoskae]

Naruto is the worst manga with the coolest premise I've ever seen; I hold out a small measure of hope that someday a better writer will rewrite the series.

You mean get the "Dangon Ball Z Kai" method... Call it "Naruto Revolution" or something... and its ending, yet predictable, is exceptional to what this rewrite is trying to do... (No filler... No BS...)

Same setting, same and/or similar characters, different plot.

Isn't Kai more of a re-edit? I'm talking about a remake.

Well, considering Naruto used to be about the dude becoming Hokage (because I would be lying if I said that I still believe that's still the actual end-goal of the series), then yeah... "Re-edit" the shit out of Naruto... since most of the problems I see with the series sterns from stuff NOT even remotely relating to Naruto becoming Hokage... (unless I'm missing something here...)

As for a Naruto remake with a different plot... Like what? Naruto NOT wanting to become Hokage or something "better" than him wanting to become Hokage... Or just having better sub-plots than what we have now, because that I can fully agree with in terms of the "remake"...

(I think I'm still confusing "remake" with "re-edit"... or vise versa...)

Honestly, I always thought Naruto was the least interesting part of his own series. Naruto has a way of simplifying every story he's involved in; his resolution to every problem is essentially the same, he's not a particularly complex or engaging character, and most of the series major events and characters don't focus on him specifically, even the Akatsuki are only interested in him because of his seal, and of the demon vessels he is only special because his Biju is the strongest.

I'm not saying cut him out of the series, but reduce his role. His character really hasn't changed much throughout the story, we didn't need a 600+ chapter manga to flesh him out. The Naruto series has many faults, but it is vast, and perhaps it's greatest flaw is that it limits the perspective with which it's story is experienced.

Although there are characters within the series who are nuanced and complex, or at least potentially they are (Itachi, for example), the majority of the cast is fairly archetypal, but the positive side of having broad and simple characters is that they are quick and easy to develop.

This is why, in a story of sufficient scope, simple characters can be of use; think of them all as personality traits of a setting, each of them elaborates on the world through their place in it. The problem with Naruto is in the title itself; generic characters only benefit a story if the setting and plot they inhabit is engaging and nuanced enough to justify and make up for their simplicity. Naruto has the setting down, but the majority of the story is seen through the eyes of a small core cast, usually Naruto or Sasuke, neither of whom have a significant enough understanding of the events that surround them to fully appreciate or affect them.

In Naruto, the side characters drive the plot, and Naruto just reacts.

In my opinion, the story would be greatly improved if the other characters were more consistently present and in focus.

The second major flaw I have with the Naruto series is a matter of variety versus depth. The history and conflicts surrounding the Hidden Leaf and it's major figures alone are enough to spend a significant amount of time exploring, but in the actual series most of it is exposition dumps and last minute flash backs.

If instead of fighting the villain of the week, the plots and arcs of the show were allowed to naturally result from the actions of the characters within it, they would be more engaging. For example, instead of creating a character whose only purpose is to function as a momentary villain, draw on the tension between the already existing characters to create conflict. Instead of having the Leaf constantly under the gun and threatened, focus in it's internal conflicts. Instead of bringing in characters like Pain into the series for one arc and killing them off or shoving characters like Orochimaru into non-existence when they don't directly threaten the protagonists, bring them in earlier and more often respectively and elaborate of their machinations and motivations.

I think Naruto had tremendous potential, the bulk of which has been wasted on broad shonen schlock. If you ask me, a more interesting Naruto story could practically write itself, so I hope somebody puts in print one day.

 

[Dragonbums]

He isn't a hack, its just that his series has been falling apart for years, after bloody years of it, its not a stretch to consider he could mess up and write himself into a wall. Its hard to keep a consistent decade old series to keep going flawlessly.

Most long running series slip up, Kishimoto just seems to have slipped up big time on this particular fight, at least he is being honest.

I'll give it to him, it takes a big man to admit he's screwed up, but I cannot understand how he managed to write himself into this corner in the first place. Was there nobody around who could tell him that "y'know, Masashi, if the goal of your story is for the hero to defeat the villain, maybe turning your villain into a Deity isn't such a good idea"?

Frankly, I'm stumped that Kishimoto, and Kubo as well, managed to end up in these situations. Yes, your villain needs to be a threat, but if you make him too powerful, then you end up in a situation where the only way for the heroes to win is if the bad guy deliberatly kills himself.

Sometimes I feel writers do this exactly on purpose because they know it will be trash and their contractors will finally let them go and end the damn series. Then years down the line they will have a trimmed down version that basically gets to the fucking point, and omits a majority of the bullshit fluff and filler that bloated the series in the first place.

As it stand, holding creative people to such contracts like this has to be the cruelest of hells. Maybe the guy did have an end to this whole thing, but he literally can't do it because the contract says he has to work on this for another 4 years or so.

 

[SuperScrub]

It's a damn shame too, because the Naruto universe is filled with untold potential. Think about it, Magic Ninja Villages, Ninja Rivalries and Wars, The ability to summon giant animals with a drop of blood among other things. You can think Naruto sucks but at minimum admit that the Naruto universe is filled with potential that our dear friend Masashi Kishimoto is poorly exploiting. And it's dying to be exploited and used by people who knows the first thing about character and plot development.

Which is why I read Naruto fanfiction, sure some of them are so bad I get a minor variant of PTSD just thinking about those passages, but the few that don't suck use the Naruto world in awesome ways.

 

[FPLOON]

-snip-

Well, that's all fine and good... However, in that case, why still call it "Naruto" then? With that kind of idea of rewriting the series, you're better off calling it "Hidden Leaf" or something like that... where it all plays out like "Cowboy Bebop" with ninjas... Despite most of the chapters feeling more stand-alone than episodic, in that sense, there is a sense of story progression and "character growth" alongside the "ever-continuing" world-building of the overall series...

Of course, certain characters would have their overall backstory changed a bit (depending how the person rewriting it feels necessary to do so) just to truly diversify the cast of characters living within this world full of potential... (i.e. Not "everyone" having a sad/tragic backstory...) Besides, Naruto's more of a comic relief than anything else, so I'm assuming most of his role would be to ease the reader into some of more serious or heavy elements that would unfold during certain major arcs in the overall story...

Now, that isn't to say that there shouldn't be villains that are just there for the one arc they appear; however, their overall presence might need to be slowly established throughout some the stand-alone chapters WAY before essentially "their" arc appears and would warrant trying to take them down once and for all... which, by then, the team (or teams) that do take them down have been established enough to know what they're capable of while simultaneously probably ending their overall character arc with a satisfying conclusion... (Granted, it doesn't have to "always" go that route... but, it doesn't hurt [too much] to change the formula around while still keeping it grounded and within the overall pace of the series...)

Of course, this will still be a shonen manga series and would soon fall in the same "traps" as shonens before it, but hopefully never to the degree of the original "Naruto" series... (Or, maybe it will all play out like a combination between "Cowboy Bebop" and "One Piece"... I honestly don't know... Maybe it would take more than one writer to truly pull this rewrite off...)

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Sooo... we had this little discussion about a month ago, about wheter or not Naruto was hated, and I answered that the reason I (and I suspect a lot of other people) dislike the series, is because it's become increasingly poorly written.

Well, guess what? Kishimoto just came out during the Shonen Jump held Jump Festa event, and admited that he had no f***ing clue how the main character is supposed to be able to defeat the main villain. He's out of ideas...

What. A. Piece. Of. Crap.

He's written himself into a corner, made his beloved Uchiha God Mode Sue too powerful, and now he's realised what every other person on the planet has: the main character can't win. This is worse than Aizen in Bleach, and will probably share that series retarded pre-timeskip conclusion as well...

Why did I ever even like this series?

...Well theres always the idea that maybe, for once, the bad guy wins?

 

[Mangod]

...Well theres always the idea that maybe, for once, the bad guy wins?

If Kishimoto did that, it'd be the greatest troll in history. Every single character goes "Filibuster-no-Jutsu" on the villain... and then the villain just kills them all, conquers the world and lives happily ever after.

There'd be riots XD

 

[lapan]

Kishimoto has long since run out of ideas. All new jutsus are just varaitions on old ones. I'm sick of eye techniques, kuchiyose and rasengan at this point.

Too many villains are revealed to have good intentions and instead of new characters we get ressurected versions of old enemies.

 

[AustinN]

As insanely popular as it is, Naruto's always been pretty controversial. Even back when the series' popularity first exploded, I saw plenty of people who thought it was a generic Shonen with generic main characters. I've seen numerous people who think that the series peaked with the Chuunin exams, and that was a LONG time ago. These days, while it's still popular, it gets a lot more criticism. And I don't think it's the typical type of arguments you get with a large fanbase, because One Piece has been running longer than Naruto or Bleach, and it doesn't get half as much crap as those two series do.

I bring all this up because it really makes me wonder: what's Naruto's legacy going to be? Dragonball Z gets a lot of mockery thrown it's way, but a lot of people still genuinely like it. In ten years, is Naruto going to be seen as a good series overall that just stumbled a little, or is it going to go the way of Inyuasha, becoming a complete joke that only retained it's popularity because most of the readers had been following it too long to stop?