Mass Effect 3 ending SPOILERS!

[James Raynor]

EDIT: I thought that this would be appropriate

http://www.bethsoft.com/images/games/games_fallout3feature2.jpg

Speaking of which, show of hands, anyone else know if Bioware will actually try to make a Broken Steel for ME3?

EDIT #2: Well...it seems that there might just be a light at the end of this tunnel
http://social.bioware.com/forum/Mass-Effect-3/Mass-Effect-3-Story-and-Campaign-Discussion-Spoilers-Allowed/They039re-listening-9707978-1.html

My two cents, don't give your hopes up...but hang on to your copy of ME3. Maybe...just maybe.

Ok so, it's a GOOD thing that they're making the 'true' ending DLC?

 

[monkeymo4d]

I think this analogy sums up my thoughts ;

If Mass Effect games are underwear then Mass Effect 3 Is a pair of new white briefs with a brown spot at the back. You Know the spot isn't shit but why would anyone intentionally put it there

 

[wicket42]

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9763511


This is an absolutely essential thread to read if you were left with that betrayed feeling by the ending; such a well argued point is definitely worth reading if the subject interests you.

 

[Deathninja19]

What I never got is why are people treating the word of The catalyst, a machine with limited knowledge, as the literal word of god?

He only knows what he was programmed to know.

Oh come on he was a literal Deus Ex Machina who was there just for plot dump purposes. Look I respect you for for putting up some interesting counter points about the ending but you can't defend the catalyst, it was a lazy way for the writers at Bioware to explain what the Reapers are and what they want and to give you the 3 options.

And I still stand by my point that there is a huge dissonance between the Reapers' motivations and their actions.

 

[Deathninja19]

Dammit double post

 

[Deathninja19]

I think this analogy sums up my thoughts ;

If Mass Effect games are underwear then Mass Effect 3 Is a pair of new white briefs with a brown spot at the back. You Know the spot isn't shit but why would anyone intentionally put it there

I laughed harder than I should have.

 

[James Raynor]

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9763511


This is an absolutely essential thread to read if you were left with that betrayed feeling by the ending; such a well argued point is definitely worth reading if the subject interests you.

We should feel more betrayed if that is the case. That means they're planning on making the correct ending DLC and are cutting out the entire end-half of the game from the original release.

 

[Nfritzappa]

I'm starting to like the idea of the 'hallucination' theory. Like bioware is taking a page from valve maybe? (God I hope) and viralizing the ending into everyone thinking its a real ending just like SHEPARD DOES. Then suddenly out of nowhere we're going to get a prompt to download something when starting up the game again and people will wonder whats going on...The endings will remain the same, UNTIL the very end where shepard will be awoken by anderson and his/her LI, thus commence the true ending.

Mighty hopefulness there, but I've got nothing to lose at this point.

 

[burningdragoon]

Man this thread is such a bummer. I find myself in the "shitty ending" camp. I've read the explanations from people defending the ending, and I can definitely understand what is being said and I can kind of maybe see how the ending could possibly be the actual best outcome... maybe. Still think it's shitty, though.

I think we can (mostly) all agree that the scene with the Normandy fleeing from the beam and the fact that your companions (the two in your party at the end) show up at very end when they should have been vaporized with everyone else was handled poorly. Seeing them alive wasn't a relief, it was stupid. (And I'm saying this as someone who was devastated when Harbinger vaporized Garrus and Tali. If the ending wasn't so shitty (IMO), I would've started the mission over just to keep them alive)

I think I'll indulge myself a little here and post what I would have liked with the ending concept.

> Everything up to Shepard and Anderson looking out on Earth and Hackett saying the Crucible isn't working is the same.
> Shepard gets up and walks towards the console (and maybe falls down the same way as normal)
> Harbinger communicates to Shepard somehow, maybe through TIM.
> Harbinger explains the cycle thing, says that by destroying the Reapers he will doom the galaxy to destroy itself entirely through the organic vs synthetic inevitability concept
> Choice:
Option A: Don't destroy them: Reapers win, cycle continues.

Option B: Destroy them: Crucible fires, Citadel crumbles, Reapers die, mass relays are fine, Effective Military Strength (EMS) and other previous choices determines aftermath, Shepard definitely dies, 2 people in your party at the end definitely die. The player can decide for him/herself if the Reapers were right.

Option C: Requires special conditions, high EMS I guess. Same as Option B EXCEPT Shepard sends off one last message explaining the Reapers goal/purposes, survivors pick up pieces of their ravaged lives and eventually begin studying the mass relays

Option C-a: Same as C except with some super perfect conditions, Shepard lives.


So... yeah. That's not me thinking I could have done it better, just something I would have liked give or take some details.

 

[flipthepool]

What I never got is why are people treating the word of The catalyst, a machine with limited knowledge, as the literal word of god?

He only knows what he was programmed to know.

Because you are forced to take what he says at face value in the ending? The fact that there isn't any option to say "screw you, you're full of crap," to the Catalyst/AI/VI/Whatever-the-crap-he-is pretty much implies that you're meant to take what he says as truth.

Also, if he's lying, that makes the endings even stupider. So, you can control the Reapers, for some reason, and ominously keep them around, for...some reason. OR, you can merge synthetic life and organic life, completely against their will, for...reasons. Reasons that don't matter if synthetic life ISN'T destined to murder all organic life eventually.

And, considering that you have to work harder to get the "synthesize" ending than the other two, I think that's considered one of the "best" endings. And the ending where you can just outright destroy the Reapers is generally considered the "worst" ending, considering you have to kill all the synthetics to do that.

Both of those things, AND the fact that you can't even tell the Catalyst to screw himself is pretty damn indicative that what he says is supposed to be the truth. Considering you can't contradict him. At all. There is nothing that indicates we're not supposed to believe him. That's just fanwankery to try to cop Bioware out of their bad writing and logistic errors.

Also, having an Explainer character exist to info-dump you, and then go, "Whoops! He's lying!" is even worse writing, unless THAT WAS THE POINT ALL ALONG.

Like, if Bioware made an ending where it turned out "the Guardian" was really a Reaper trying to indoctrinate Shepard to do its evil bidding, or something, and you are SUPPOSED to not believe what he says, that would be one thing. That would make sense to have you assume that what the Catalyst says is a lie. But the fact that you HAVE to choose one of his options, and have to sacrifice Shepard to do so, means that you're supposed to believe him.

There is literally no reason to assume that WE'RE supposed to assume the Catalyst is lying, and if he WAS, then that makes the endings even more pointless and stupid and terrible. Because then, not only is the entire premise of the ending (synthetics kill everyone, go do some space-magic, Shepard!) faulty within the logic of the game, but it wouldn't even be supported by the darn thing you're supposed to believe! Shepard would just go sacrifice him/herself based on lies and faulty information! And that is even MORE out of character than what is in there now.

So, basically, no.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Because you are forced to take what he says at face value in the ending? The fact that there isn't any option to say "screw you, you're full of crap," to the Catalyst/AI/VI/Whatever-the-crap-he-is pretty much implies that you're meant to take what he says as truth.

Except that doesn't imply or mean anything even remotely close to what you said

All it means is that Shepard listened to him.

 

[flipthepool]

Except that doesn't imply or mean anything even remotely close to what you said

All it means is that Shepard listened to him.

And the REASON is that Shepard listened to the Guardian is because Shepard, and we, were forced to believe what the Guardian said.

There is literally nothing that indicates that we shouldn't believe the Explainer. Shepard, the character who we essentially "are," clearly believed him, at least enough to think that doing what he said was a hunky-dory idea.

You're just obviously and hilariously grasping at straws here. You go from, "oh, maybe he's lying!" to, "well, then Shepard just listened to his lies and believed him."

If the dude is lying/spreading false information, that just makes Shepard an idiot then for never questioning him. Hence, MORE BAD WRITING.

Seriously, no matter what, it's bad writing. It's either completely misdirecting and even more OOC for Shepard (not to mention saying, "he lied!" about a character that literally the ENTIRE ENDING PREMISE IS BASED ON would be terrible, awful, and worst of all stupid writing), or...Bioware just wrote a crappy ending that completely goes against the themes of the game/all the other games.

So...either way you're looking at some piss-poor writing, but having The Explainer...I mean...The "Guardian," be a crazy lying space robot makes the whole ending, amazingly, even worse!

Please, tell me where I'm wrong with those implications. Explain to me how I am incorrect, instead of just going, "Nope! You're wrong! Lalalala!" Please tell me how the game leads us to believe that the "Guardian" is lying, or that he isn't telling the truth. Explain how you came to this conclusion using actual elements from the game and not, "well...he's old!"

Because that explanation sucks.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Yes because the Catalyst who tells you information about the cycle and ALSO says the cycle is now broken thus meaning everything he said is now wrong gives you no reason to doubt him?

Did you pay attention at all?

 

[flipthepool]

Yes because the Catalyst who tells you information about the cycle and ALSO says the cycle is now broken thus meaning everything he said gives you no reason to doubt him?

Not...when everything you are forced to do is based on listening to him and doing what he says? If what he says isn't true (ie, synthetics WON'T rise up and kill organics) then there is absolutely NO reason to a) synthesize organics and synthetics, or b) keep the Reapers as "back up."

That makes two of the endings completely useless, and one of them, the one you have to work harder to get (synthesize) completely NONSENSICAL. What is the point in merging synthetic and organic life into a magical creature (without their consent) if synthetics aren't "destined" to rise up and kill organics? Then you're just playing god with a bunch of creatures for literally no reason. And why make this ending harder to get? Why even have this ending AT ALL?

Hell, when the Catalyst is talking about destroying the Reapers and is all, "well, your kids will make synthetics and then they will RISE UP AND KILL YOU," Shepard just says, "Maybe." Not, "Wait, what is this craziness? Let's try this once more with a little less crazy." Just..."maybe." And the way Shepard says it sounds (to me) less like, "Maybe you're right, but I don't think so," and more like, "I hope you're not right, but I think you are." Subjective, I know, but that's what I took from it.

Which...is pretty much why the "destroy" ending is Renegade. There is no other reason why keeping the Reapers alive would be considered "Paragon," unless it was the right thing to do, given the nature of Paragon choices throughout the game.

 

[Legendairy314]

Been looking around and trying to figure out if I liked the ending or not for the last 2 hours or so. All in all I say that I liked it a lot more before I went on the forums and read other people's arguments on why it was bad. I always found that the reason the reapers existed was more important than anything else in Mass Effect and now we're given the reasons why. And after that point I couldn't see it end in a better way.

I'm not saying the endings were the best things ever but I believed they'd wrote themselves into that corner since the series began. Still, with the way the rest of the game worked in all the choices and such I could easily understand why fans are pissed. They want the choices to actually matter in a story where it all came down to a very specific set of endings.

In the end, the choices are still there despite the ending you've gotten. Some finality to it all would be nice instead of this open ended but super closed yet still kind of approachable thing we've been left with. There is no sappy happy ending which I'm glad for but there also isn't enough closure to where I'm completely satisfied. For now, the story is over (at least for my Shepard) and while it may not be in any way perfect I'm willing to accept these endings despite their various flaws.

EDIT: After a little more thinking I'm gonna go ahead and say I'm fine with these endings. They're still a bit out of place considering the choices we've made are almost thrown out the window other than them deciding fighting forces influencing different endings. All the answers probably shouldn't have been saved for last either. Despite this I think the series ended well enough and in no way think we need any dlc to make the ending "better" at the moment.

 

[Lillowh]

I find these 2 quotes quite hilarious.

?This story arc is coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot more different. At this point we?re taking into account so many decisions that you?ve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that stuff. It?s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C."

Which is a complete and utter lie because that is EXACTLY what it comes down to.
and

?It?s more like there are some really obvious things that are different and then lots and lots of smaller things, lots of things about who lives and who dies, civilizations that rose and fell, all the way down to individual characters. That becomes the state of where you left your galaxy. The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them.?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Thanks for a good laugh Casey.

Source: http://www.oxm.co.uk/37677/mass-effect-3-citadel-is-bigger-than-ever-endings-will-be-more-sophisticated/

Captcha: "hug me" Ok Escapist, just this once.

 

[Elate]

Shepard is all alone, the Mass Relays are offline, all synthetics are dead and the Normandy is stranded in the middle of no where. 

Maybe this is a difference of opinion, but I consider the "neutral" ending the "best" and least depressing one.

Also I cried at Mordin too, but I don't feel bad about it, someone else might have gotten it wrong. -Lip tremble-

 

[Bmagada]

You have to know the ending was a cop out once the little kid shows up in the citadel. Come on, the reapers were created by the space kid. Umm who created the fucking citadel?!?!? Also why was the Normandy in jump space anyways? Did they just cut and run after they dropped off Sheppard? So now there's a planet where they tell stories of Sheppard to the offspring of the Normandy? We should have seen this coming the moment EA was involved. They can't say they had budget constraints because they knew this game was going to sell like crazy. Maybe this was written by the same guy that dropped that god awful M.E. book that came out before the game. I could have dealt with just about anything, even the laziness it takes to not just put a new texture on Tali's face when she takes off her mask, but this who knows wtf happened ending just made me want to puke. I'll happily admit that this is the best game in the series......well until the ending that made no sense. If there is no DLC to fix this I'm going to lose faith in Bioware. Yeah not everyone is going to like whatever ending, but I don't think I've ever been so disappointed. I guess it'd be a win for everyone seeing as we'd have to pay money for the change, but honestly, that could have been written so much better. Even The Path of Neo with its "Mega Agent Smith" was a better ending....

Look, some games can do this for an ending and it would be fine, but this is Mass Effect. Everyone who plays it invests in the story, characters, and choices they make. This ending just makes all of that seem arbitrary. People dedicate money and hours of their life for an epic story and we end up with an ending that's on par with Rage's ending in comparison. I hope they do try to fix this.

 

[Autumnflame]

From reading just about every source i can and from both fans plus the vague hints given by bioware staff.

i am coming to the conclusion that this was all intentional.

Just to see how much we love mass effect and our shepards story. to see our passion.

then a free dlc will be added that will resolve the ending to something more satisfying.
and the bioware staff will sit back and watch as they had planned it all along.
and watch our amazement at their fake out ending they fut on us.

and fans will say well played bioware well played

 

[Sp3ratus]

Dude, that is not an opinion. People have talked about, and made excellent points about how the Catalyst's reasoning is faulty and directly contradicted by the game itself. Nobody is saying, "the Catalyst is a stupidhead!" and that's it. People are bringing up the contradictions in the Catalyst's logic, and how the Catalyst himself directly contradicts the whole "synthetics will ALWAYS KILL ALL ORGANICS, BLARGH!" reasoning, being that he IS a synthetic, who is trying to SAVE organic life.

The Catalyst is an AI, programmed a long, long time ago, by organics who saw, that the technological path they were going down would eventually lead to demise of all organics by the hands of synthetics. To prevent this from happening, they made the Catalyst and the solution to the problem of synthetics wiping out organics is the Reapers.

To the Catalyst and the Reapers, they are saving organics, by storing them in Reaper form, but also, they're making sure that future species of organics have a figthing chance and not being wiped out by synthetics.

These...aren't opinions. Saying, "the Geth (synthetics) and the Quarians (organics) were able to peacefully reconcile their differences," ISN'T an opinion. Asking, "If synthetics are ALWAYS going to kill ALL organics, then why is the Catalyst, a synthetic, trying to save organics? Doesn't that disprove that line of reasoning?" ISN'T an opinion.

Saying that the whole "synthetic life will ALWAYS do this thing," goes directly against the self-determinism of the series is NOT an opinion. Saying that it goes against the idea that synthetic life has free will ISN'T an opinion.

You're right, those aren't opinions, I didn't say that either. Regardless, that doesn't matter to the Catalyst or the Reapers. As I said, the Catalyst was programmed eons ago and the experience of those organics was that synthetics would eventually take over the galaxy which, again, is why it was set up in the first place.


The ending, however, very much supports self-determinism. With the mass relays destroyed, organics will finally be free to pursue technological and societal advancements they want, instead of being directed down a certain path, set by the Reapers.

None of these things are opinions, they are facts, and they are why the endings are so freaking stupid. They are based on a premise that is faulty from the offset, and one that is in no way supported by the rest of the series. "Synthetics vs. organics," hasn't been the major conflict of the series. "The Reapers vs. Everyone else in the universe," has been the major conflict of the series.

I mean, the second game goes WAY out of the way to try to establish that a) not all synthetics are evil Reaper lovers, and b) they have their own thoughts, their own feelings, their own motivations. So when the third game suddenly goes, "Nope! They're all going to KILL YOU," well, I call shenanigans. Because that was in no way supported by the game itself.

The third game most certainly does not state that all organics are going to kill you. The Catalyst with its programming, states that organics will eventually make synthetics who will wipe all organics out, because that's what the original creators of the Catalyst (probably) witnessed. It might be right, it might be wrong, but the Catalyst is only as good as its programming.

Synthetic vs organics might not have been the major conflict, but it's a theme of the ME trilogy and the explanation of whole Reapers vs. the galaxy. Being a theme in the series, it and the themes of self-determism(both the instance I explained above and self-determinism for the player) and self-sacrifice ties up together and makes the ending.

But listen, it's obvious that neither of us are going to convince the other side that their opinion is the right one. I've tried to make my side and my understanding of the ending and the trilogy as clear as possible. I'm not surrendering my position, but it's clear that we aren't getting anywhere, so I'm going to stop replying here. I'm willing to explain my side of things, if anyone is interested in a PM, but this back and forth is getting us nowhere.

I respect your right to your opinion(and those who hold similar views) and think it's absolutely fine that you have that opinion. Despite what you might think, I don't think you guys are idiots, you just hold a different opinion than me. I thank you and the others who have been keeping the discussion civil, while presenting your side of things, but if you haven't been convinced so far, you won't ever be, hence why I don't think it's necessary to spend more time here, especially when I can't even get people to admit that the endings are indeed different and depends on choices throughout the series:

It might just be minor alteration for you, but they are different endings, as different things happens in each and it is influenced by earlier choices in the series.

In my opinion that makes them the exact same ending with some different variables.