Mass Effect isn't an RPG?!

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UBERfionn

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Jun 7, 2010
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blakfayt said:
UBERfionn said:
Your 100% right in my book.

It's about making and ROLE PLAYING your character.
JRPG's are not RPG's for that reason.
Oh yes so in Mana Khemia the fact that I decide who my character spends the rest of his life with/meets with after graduation has nothing to do with anything, or Star Ocean Till the End of Time, where I determine what the main character does after the game by participating in conversations. Man am I tired of idiots who refuse to realize that JRPGs are motherfucking RPGs a Role playing game is putting yourself in another's shoes and acting how they would act, in that sense every game is part RPG, they are just more part everything else to be seen that way.
I've had to argue this to death now and if you read several of my later post I do say that "by in large" JRPG's are not RPG's.
A lot of JRPG's just make you a butler to the PC. This can lead to great games but makes them less and less like RPG's. Others are real RPG's like the one's you mention.
 

UBERfionn

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Zeithri said:
UBERfionn said:
Sure just having choises in a game does not make it an RPG, but they do help towards makeing a connection to the PC.
Thats what I mean by Role playing. YOU are the hero, YOU suffer through his down's and rejoice when he wins. There is a connection in RPG's with the PC, he is your connection to the world, s/he is a part of you. That's what I mean when I say that by in large JRPG's are not RPG's.
What you are saying is correct until the last line.
Because what you describe happens in jRPG's all the time.
So what is it that just blocks your mind from accepting it?
A hell of a lot don't fall into the RPG category. Admittedly some do but other that are not but have kinda the same look about them still get tossed into the RPG category. Hell it happens too much with so called western RPG's as well.

That's what bothers me.
It happens all the time with the whole "action adventure" genre.
 

Eclectic Dreck

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Sep 3, 2008
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The heart of the debate lies in the simple fact that there is strict definition of what RPG actually means. Literally, it could be interpreted as a game where you play a role, a definition that would include any story driven game ever made. This is obviously not a terribly useful definition.

In a less general way, an RPG can be considered as a game that allows for narrative agency and/or character agency. Before anyone hits the "angry flame" button, let me take a moment to describe what I mean by that.

Narrative agency means that I, as a player, have some measure of control over the plot beyond simply determining if it advances or not. Most games you'll find do not offer much narrative agency to the player.

Character agency means that I, as a player, have some control over how my character or characters develop. This can take many forms. It may be that I can control a series of stat systems that determine what my character can or cannot do, or perhaps simply determine what my character is proficient at and what he is not. This can take many forms, from the management of complex interelated systems (Such as the character System in D&D), a simple version of the same where options are divided into a series of distinct choices (like in Diablo 2 or World of Warcraft for example), or the management of items and mcguffins that alter the way the character can approach the world (Dungeon Siege for example). It could also take a narrative turn where I can control how my character responds to the world. Note that this only counts for something if the world is capable of changing in response to a change in it's perception of my character. The most recent notable example of this would be Alpha Protocol, but I suspect few actually found anything laudable in that game.

You'll find that such a definition would generally include the various opinions people have about what makes an "RPG". The trouble is, it is still a wide enough definition that it includes a surprising number of games and worse still, it excludes certain games that some people will insist to the bitter end is an RPG just because past examples were RPGs as well.

If we can assume that the given conditions are at least fairly close to the truth, we can examine several games to see how they stack up.

Modern Warfare 2: The player is given no narrative agency. The plot will progress in the same way regardless of choice. There is no character agency either as any choice that would alter the character in a significant way results in a fail state (that is, the player can simply give up and not play any more). As such, I can assume that MW2 is not an RPG.

Mass Effect: The player is given a degree of narrative agency. At several points throughout the story, the player is allowed to make choices that, in some way, alter the story being told. The beginning and the end are, however, generally fixed as is the path the player will take and as such the narrative agency is limited. The player is allowed to choose, in a general way, how to approach a situation. In some cases, this choice of tone will alter the narrative. The player is also allowed to pick from a limited set of skills that give some measure of control over how the game is played but the differences are often slight. The player is also allowed to alter the gear of their character, but the choices generally amount to replace X with a better version of X and thus the value of the choice is rendered moot from a systems perspective. Given that Mass Effect has both narrative agency and character agency, the game could be correctly called an RPG.

Final Fantasy 13: The player is given no narrative agency. The plot is strictly linear with no significant variation allowed. The player has only minimal character agency. While the precise route one takes with the characters will vary, the end result is the same regardless of choice. The only way to alter either character or narrative requires the introduction of a fail state (the player can choose to not finish the game). Final Fantasy 13, in spite of the very minor character agency, is probably not best described as an RPG.

Mass Effect 2: Generally the same as the previous game. Narrative agency remains the same though character agency shifts to a degree. A player has fewer options for skills but those choices tend to result in a more distinct difference in how the game is played. There are fewer items but the choice is no longer between x and better x, but rather between x and y meaning the choice often impacts how proficiently a player can approach a given challenge. Because a player has both narrative agency and character agency, Mass Effect 2 could correctly be called an RPG.
 

rockyoumonkeys

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Aug 31, 2010
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Yeah, it's hard to say ME or ME2 isn't an RPG. Yes, it's a shooter, but it's also an RPG. You make a lot of decisions and choices during the story, there's a fair bit of character customization, you can play it a number of different ways, and while the story is fairly straightforward, you still have a lot of push to nudge it one way or another.
 

No_Remainders

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Sep 11, 2009
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Shydun Afaya said:
Somehow I seem to be the only one with the problem of having over 100 small arms skill and still having bullets in every corner of the screen at close range with a pistol.
Starcraft is fun. I'd like to point out; however that RTS =/= RPG.
 

DustyDrB

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Jan 19, 2010
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gigastrike said:
Do games absolutely have to fit neatly into pre-defined classifications?
Someone else is sharing my point of view, it seems. I'm sure theres more of us out there, but theres too many people who freak out when games don't fit into a genre. It's like...wait, it's missing some RPG staples...is it ok for me to still like this??
 

Akiada

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Apr 7, 2010
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Choice defines a RPG for me. Choice that affects both storyline and gameplay.

RPGs in video games arose from Table Top RPGs - some even used an altered format of D&D's mechanics! The key and clear selling point of any Table Top RPG is Agency - the ability to control your character fully and therefore control your roll in the story. Consequently, any real video game RPG should try it's damndest to replicate that agency.

The statistics and systems that go along wih TTRPGs are only there because you need rules for that sense of agency to be fun. So it's more than playing pretend. A game itself provides those rules by virtue of mechanics - so it doesn't matter whether it plays out in rounds or in real time, whether your pistol needs a pistol skill or not.

All that matters is choice.
 

Ranorak

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Feb 17, 2010
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Role playing isn't about choices.
Choices lets you make a personal twist on the role, but a static Linear JRPG still lets you play a role.
You just don't have much input.
Like a actor in a play. You're not allowed to change the script drasticly. But an actor is still Roleplaying.
 

individual11

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Sep 6, 2010
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Uh, what do these count as? FPRPGs?
System Shock 1 & 2
Deus Ex 1 & 2
Arx Fatalis
Morrowind, Oblivion
STALKER 1, -1 & 2
Does a D&D-esque setting allow for more probability of being counted as an RPG?
Does a classification acronym have to be applied to every game?
Just asking, is all.