Math Problem, Arguement with the teacher. Easy Logic.

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Drug Crazed

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Sonic Doctor said:
And it is useful, usely is not a word.
And I'm doing Computer Science with Maths and therefore am allowed to make typos.

Liquid Paradox said:
Apologies, I get easily frustrated at stuff like that. In reply, its a sad fact about the teaching, but I've always been lucky with my teachers (though we never did logic in maths).

If I were a lesser man, I'd make a joke about implication.

FarleShadow said:
I'm going to agree with your teacher, in the sense that you should just accept it and get on with something else.
That's the worst thing that could possibly be done. If you don't understand it you'll have a hell of a time when you see it in-depth in a future time (like college or whatever it is you Americans call it :p). I know that after me not understanding a good 50% of Mechanics 1, when Mechanics 2 referenced M1 I struggled an awful lot. Its easier to be understood now, while its fresh than to have incorrect things for future problems.

Imagine if you didn't understand why 2+2=4, and why it didn't equal 5. Then when you met multiplication you'd have difficulties. I know I've chosen something basic that most people do, but you get my drift
 

Singletap

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green_dude said:
I have a better example:

If I kill you today then you will die today. Obviously true.
If I kill you today then you will not die today. Obviously false.
If I don't kill you today then you will die today. True, as you may get hit by a truck or something.
If I don't kill you today then you wil not die today. True, as you may not get hit by a truck or something.

Bit of a morbid example, but it was the first thing that came into my head. Logic like this is really meant for absolutes, but True and False don't mean what they should.

True = Not False
False = Immposible

I agree that logic like this is dumb, even in CompSci ifThenElse has a totally more relevant use.
Well this would be a lot easier if someone told me that true is not true but it is not false instead. I assumed that true meant that it happened because of the if.
 

Drug Crazed

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Singletap said:
Why make the biggest assumption that the medicine will help?
The real problem in mathematics is that we have to have real life examples that can contridict the fabric of reality that we know.

So, ignore what the question is actually saying. Treat them as A and B. Then it makes sense.
 

Liquid Paradox

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Singletap said:
Well this would be a lot easier if someone told me that true is not true but it is not false instead. I assumed that true meant that it happened because of the if.
that is the I it should be. True should be "absolute" while false should be "not true", but this is not the way things are done.
 

Singletap

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Father Time said:
green_dude said:
I have a better example:

If I kill you today then you will die today. Obviously true.
If I kill you today then you will not die today. Obviously false.
If I don't kill you today then you will die today. True, as you may get hit by a truck or something.
If I don't kill you today then you wil not die today. True, as you may not get hit by a truck or something.

Bit of a morbid example, but it was the first thing that came into my head. Logic like this is really meant for absolutes, but True and False don't mean what they should.

True = Not False
False = Immposible

I agree that logic like this is dumb, even in CompSci if... then... has a totally more relevant use:

if iKillYou
then youDie

So the 1st is true, the 2nd is false and the other two depend on what other stuff you stick in it.
I thought it was
False=False
True=Maybe

Or Undefined=maybe/no idea.

True would=undefined in your case though.
 

Danny Ocean

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Jun 28, 2008
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Singletap said:
Why make the truth table if it could be wrong. What if it ends up being true and it is actually false wouldn't that create a problem in a code?
It doesn't really matter if the medicine helps or not because this is just a thought exercise.

You could just as easily construct a truth table from any other premise. Perhaps it would be easier for you if I re-word it like this:

"It is the case that if you take your medicine then you will feel better."

It doesn't matter that the medicine may or may not work. You are being given a truth and being told to conclude from it using a truth table.

In the real world you'd determine the validity of the above statement using scientific tests. For your logic class, however, we can safely take it as a given because it's not being used to make any decisions beyond the classroom.

I understand you're getting worked up over the above statement because it's just as much an assumption to take it as a given that the medicine works as to take it that it doesn't. Let's pursue this, shall we?

Say that scientific trials confirm that the medicine works. The premise is valid.

Say that scientific trials confirm that the medicine does not work. The premise is invalid.

You are no longer working on an assumption. Or are you? You see, even those scientific trials operate on assumptions in maths and in the way we perceive the world. When it comes down to it, we can't really know anything other than the existence of our own consciousness. As Descartes said, "I think, therefore I am."

It is pointless, therefore, to get all worked up over this particular premise, and instead just accept that it's OK to take it as a truth for the purposes of the exercise. You're going to hit the wall of unknowable reality eventually as long as you apply your logic consistently.

So just accept the inconsistency and enjoy the thought exercise.

All of the above is a different kind of logic, I think. I don't know how computer code differs. The above may or may not be relevant to you.

Singletap said:
True would=undefined in your case though.
He states that:

True= ¬False
False= ¬Possible.

True = ¬False = ¬Possible

True = ¬¬Possible.

True = Possible.

The probability is a different issue. All we need know is if it is at all possible.
 

Shynobee

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Singletap said:
Shynobee said:
You are making the biggest assumption that the medicine will not help.

What you need to understand is that school math lives in a bubble. The ways of reality and actual life do not apply. You take what is given, and nothing else. In other words, you are reading too deeply into the problem. You can't do that in school math.
Why make the biggest assumption that the medicine will help?
Its not an assumption, its given in the problem.

The initial sentence was "If you take the medicine, then you will get better."

Thus, we are given by the problem that medicine will always make you better.
 

Drug Crazed

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Singletap said:
So we don't assume it to be true for laughs and giggles we assume it to be true because there is no problem with the math that it uses?
Yes! That's just it! Though I have an urge to change math to maths. Don't mind me...
 

castlewise

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Jul 18, 2010
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Here
Father Time said:
Mike Laserbeam said:
Ever heard of Proof By Induction?
First Step:
Assume true for n=1

Maths is all about assumption :p
Uh no in induction you have to prove n=1 is true. Then prove the general case 'n+1' is true (then you're done).
Off topic but fun anyway. All horses have the same color: A proof by induction.
Let n be the number of horses.

n=1: If there is only one horse then it has to be the same color as itself so we are good with this case.

Inductive step: Suppose all groups of horses with n animals have the same color. Suppose we have a group with n+1 animals. Take two of the animals, say Al and Betty. Remove animal Al from the group. The group has n horses so they all must have the same color. This means that Betty must have the same color as every other horse in the herd except Al and in particular the same color as some random third horse Carla. Now remove Betty and put Al back in. There are still n horses in the group so the horses all have the same color. So Al has the same color as Carla as well. Since Al has the same color as Carla, Al must have the same color as the rest of the herd (including Betty). So all n+1 animals have the same color.

By induction every horse is the same color.

(Note: this proof has a flaw, and its not the induction. So don't take it as some sort of demonstration that math/induction/proof is bs or whatever.)
 

sarge1942

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May 24, 2009
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my first thought was is it the right medicine, i don't like that question at all, insufficient data for me.
Edit: oh i just got what that meant, never mind the comment, except i still don't like the question.
 

Sonic Doctor

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Jan 9, 2010
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Drug Crazed said:
Sonic Doctor said:
And it is useful, usely is not a word.
And I'm doing Computer Science with Maths and therefore am allowed to make typos.
I'm taking that as a joke, because that won't fly in college, even in writing things for Computer Science and Math classes. Besides, even if you are going into those fields when you get to college, you will still have to take at least two composition classes, a literature class or two, and a speech class. All of which will have a ton of writing, along with the ton of writing you will do with your Major course work. Just because you aren't going to be an English major, doesn't mean you won't have to write any papers and write very well.

If you are already in college, you already know this.
 

Singletap

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Danny Ocean said:
Singletap said:
Why make the truth table if it could be wrong. What if it ends up being true and it is actually false wouldn't that create a problem in a code?
It doesn't really matter if the medicine helps or not because this is just a thought exercise.

You could just as easily construct a truth table from any other premise. Perhaps it would be easier for you if I re-word it like this:

"It is the case that if you take your medicine then you will feel better."

It doesn't matter that the medicine may or may not work. You are being given a truth and being told to conclude from it using a truth table.

In the real world you'd determine the validity of the above statement using scientific tests. For your logic class, however, we can safely take it as a given because it's not being used to make any decisions beyond the classroom.

I understand you're getting worked up over the above statement because it's just as much an assumption to take it as a given that the medicine works as to take it that it doesn't. Let's pursue this, shall we?

Say that scientific trials confirm that the medicine works. The premise is valid.

Say that scientific trials confirm that the medicine does not work. The premise is invalid.

You are no longer working on an assumption. Or are you? You see, even those scientific trials operate on assumptions in maths and in the way we perceive the world. When it comes down to it, we can't really know anything other than the existence of our own consciousness. As Descartes said, "I think, therefore I am."

It is pointless, therefore, to get all worked up over this particular premise, and instead just accept that it's OK to take it as a truth for the purposes of the exercise. You're going to hit the wall of unknowable reality eventually as long as you apply your logic consistently.

So just accept it and enjoy the thought exercise.
Right everything could just be fake and it's assumed to be real. The point is it's useless to think like that or... okay... I may get it more now.
 

Hawk of Battle

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Feb 28, 2009
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1/3 + 1/3 +1/3 = 3/3 = 1

BUT

0.3 + 0.3 + 0.3 = 0.9

What happened to the 0.1?

Yeah, I'm gona go ahead and say maths is stupid.
 

castlewise

Lord Fancypants
Jul 18, 2010
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1/3 is not .3.
1/3 is .333333333... (repeating)

1/3+1/3+1/3 = .9999999999....

and there was already an escapsit thread about how .9999999...=1
 

Xojins

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Singletap said:
Atmos Duality said:
In order to use Math as a proof for what is real and measurable, we must assume Math itself is real, which would require a proof other than Math, or it would be circular logic (which is a fallacy).

Fun stuff.
I'm not posting this to debate proof of reality. To summarize my thoughts of using math as proof is that true math is perfect as is reality and it can be used to measure reality because of the equal perfection between the two, also I am 15. Haha.
Perhaps, but the rules of logic are different than those of math. Those statements are not undefined, the third statement is a fallacy while the fourth is a truth. Your teacher wasn't completely right but neither were you.
[sub]I've taken a logic class btw.[/sub]
 

FarleShadow

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Drug Crazed said:
FarleShadow said:
I'm going to agree with your teacher, in the sense that you should just accept it and get on with something else.
That's the worst thing that could possibly be done. If you don't understand it you'll have a hell of a time when you see it in-depth in a future time (like college or whatever it is you Americans call it :p). I know that after me not understanding a good 50% of Mechanics 1, when Mechanics 2 referenced M1 I struggled an awful lot. Its easier to be understood now, while its fresh than to have incorrect things for future problems.

Imagine if you didn't understand why 2+2=4, and why it didn't equal 5. Then when you met multiplication you'd have difficulties. I know I've chosen something basic that most people do, but you get my drift
Ehem, UK.
Moving on.

Well, yes. But one would hope that if someone sucked at 'Mechanics 1' they wouldn't then go "OH BOY, I CAN'T WAIT FOR MECHANICS 2: REVENGE OF THE STUPID!", to follow your example.
I say 'You should just accept it and move on' in a sense that 'Yes, its stupid, now learn it, LEARN IT HARD' Accept the fact you're having problems with it and try harder to understand it, because it ain't changing or getting less obtuse.
 

Drug Crazed

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Sonic Doctor said:
I'm taking that as a joke, because that won't fly in college, even in writing things for Computer Science and Math classes.
Its called flippancy. I write weekly for the fun of it, and make typos. I usually spell check. I thought not to bother on a forum. But hey, its alright because english graduates who only have 5 contact hours have all that time to point out my flaws!

You'll find that Computer Science can be much harder on typos because computers don't understand them, so when you do make them you tend to notice and fix them. Seriously, you knew what I meant by usely, why bother bringing it up?

Hawk of Battle said:
incorrect logic
GARGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 0.3 != 1/3! Its 0.3 recurring, which when you multiply by 3 equals 0.9 recurring, which you can easily prove is 1.
 

Drug Crazed

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FarleShadow said:
Well, yes. But one would hope that if someone sucked at 'Mechanics 1' they wouldn't then go "OH BOY, I CAN'T WAIT FOR MECHANICS 2: REVENGE OF THE STUPID!", to follow your example.
I say 'You should just accept it and move on' in a sense that 'Yes, its stupid, now learn it, LEARN IT HARD' Accept the fact you're having problems with it and try harder to understand it, because it ain't changing or getting less obtuse.
One would also hope they weren't doing Further Maths and thus needed to do both modules.

The issue wasn't that M1 wasn't understandable. I resat it and got the extra marks because my M2 teacher went over it again with me. The teaching was bad, not me. Especially since after M1 made sense, all of M2 did.

In other news: I HATE UNREADABLE CAPTCHA
 

Dastardly

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Apr 19, 2010
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Singletap said:
When you evaluate the "truth" of a statement, you aren't evaluating whether it's useful. You're evaluating whether the logic is sound.

If A, then B. In this case, A is "medicine," and B is "feel better." And you have four possible permutations of truth/falsehood here:

The information we are given tells us that medicine will make you feel better. Knowing this, if:

1. A and B are both true, the statement is "Take medicine, feel better." This is true.

2. A is true, B is false, so the statement is "Take medicine, don't feel better." This doesn't line up with the information we are originally given, so it's false.

3. A is false, B is true, so the statement is "Don't take medicine, feel better." Since the information doesn't tell us medicine is the ONLY way to feel better (it only tells us that taking the medicine will definitely do the job), we can't call this statement "false." It's true, if only on a technicality--it's logically sound.

4. Both A and B are false, so the statement is "Don't take medicine, don't feel better." Also lines up with the information we're given, so it is logically sound, and therefore true.

Your teacher is using a useful technique when teaching students about logic--the usefulness of a statement, or whether or not you agree with the statement, is separate from whether or not the logic behind the statement is internally consistent with the information upon which it is based.

For a better understanding of If/Then, and the logic behind why certain statements are true (sound) or false (unsound), consider this example:

"If the animal is a dog, it is a mammal." - This is the information we are given, which is therefore assumed to be true for the purposes of these operations. Assumptions are useful, just as you assume a chair will support your weight without extensive testing each time you sit. Conveniently, we also know this to be scientifically true (dogs are, in fact, mammals), but that isn't important except to help you understand how if/then statements work.

So, knowing this, let's assume each of the following:

1. A and B are both true: "The animal is a dog, therefore it is a mammal." Makes sense. Dogs are mammals.

2. A is true, B is false: "The animal is a dog, and it is not a mammal." This conflicts with the information we are given, so it is false. There are no such things as non-mammal dogs.

3. A is false, B is true: "The animal is not a dog, and it is a mammal." This doesn't conflict with our information--we aren't told that ONLY dogs can be mammals, just that dogs themselves must be mammals. This statement is consistent with our information, so it is true. It could be a cat, after all.

4. A is false, B is false: "The animal is not a dog, and it is not a mammal." This also does not conflict with the information we are given. It could be a lizard--not a dog, not a mammal. This statement isn't useful, but it is logically sound.

THE ONLY way for an 'if/then' statement to be false is if we satisfy the "IF," and the "THEN" result does not occur. This would mean that the original statement would be false. Since you cannot falsify the GIVEN, it is instead the CONCLUSION that is false.