Hardly mature. Falls more in the teenage hardcore part than actually mature part.
Lots of gratituous female nudity doesn't make something actually mature.
There aren't many truly mature games around. Xenogears, Planescape Torment, Valkyrie Profile and some of the Ultimas come to mind, but that's about it.
Edit: Obviously my list is for role-playing games. My experience is limited outside this genre.
As I have argued before, in addition to that gratuitous nudity though, there is also mature nudity. Not in that virgin-vision Mass Effect/hollywood way, but rather the way it really is.
Especially the opening scene when Geralt and Triss wakes up from what has presumably been a delicious night. Is the nudity gratuitous just because we're allowed to see it? Its easy to draw that conclusion since it can feel like voyeurism. However the way it is displayed is the affection between to adults that has enjoyed the carnal pleasures of life. This is mature.
The same can be said of the later scene in the "rosebath". Even if its a bit more clichéd, there is some tongue in cheek there with the soldiers skittering away thinking the place is haunted. Sexuality and humor. In a way thats not American Pie... >.> That is mature.
Nudity and gore is not gratuitous unless its unnecessary. Can we say that about the scenes between Geralt and Triss? Probably, but they both carry some character development as well. The first presents us with a couple of important characters, and cements their relationship. The second one explores it. Isnt that a hallmark of a mature game? Exploration of human relationships?
I'd demand you remedy that immediately, but I think Ultima has passed beyond the threshold of acceptable retro gaming. Even I would have a hard time getting into, say, Ultima IV at this point, and I'd be approaching it through a haze of nostalgia.
Pity. They're arguably the most influential and essential RPG series of all time.
Better still, they're on GOG. But they are VERY old now. We're not talking Planescape old. They're to the Planescape generation of old games what the Planescape generation of games is to us now. If you do decide to forge ahead boldy, though, IV-VII are the essential chapters. I-III can be safely skipped, and IX should be avoided at all costs unless you're hungry to play one of the most disappointing games of all time.
Hardly mature. Falls more in the teenage hardcore part than actually mature part.
Lots of gratituous female nudity doesn't make something actually mature.
There aren't many truly mature games around. Xenogears, Planescape Torment, Valkyrie Profile and some of the Ultimas Xenosaga* come to mind, but that's about it.
As much as I love Mass Effect, the OP's comment about relationships that "culminate at the first orgasm" (and pants on sex) are clearly digs ON Mass Effect (and Dragon Age). The fact that your relationship with a character can be summed up as: "choose dialogue to initiate, complete loyalty quest, reach second to last mission, have sex with character, finish game". Don't get me wrong, I thought they were well handled for a game - but they are still very artificial at times, and they STILL are set up so that "sex once" = complete.
I'm just saying, it would be nice if "sleep with the character" wasn't the goal of a romantic relationship. That's actually one reason I liked the Isabella relationship in DA2 - you have sex first, and THEN the relationship gets interesting.
tldr: I don't think the OP is looking for more sex - I think the OP wants to see a relationship mature beyond a one-night stand.
*[sub]Previous post altered slightly because I have never played the Ultima series.[/sub]
Get this, it doesn't really have any reason to have a romance sub/plot, so instead of just having attractive women hanging around for people to ogle, it barely has any women and just focuses on being well-written in other regards! Get that!
Granted, I can't say "If you're not going to treat women fairly, take them out of your game" is the best design credo (as opposed to "Treat women fairly in your games"), but hey, it works here. I find it especially fascinating since Amy Henning (currently the writer of the Uncharted series) is a woman. She's like a reverse Chris Claremont/Joss Whedon. The few characters of her own gender that show up in these games are well-written, but she focuses more on writing more interesting male characters than I've seen any man write.
You want story-based? I'd say Suikoden 2 is a title to keep an eye out for, I agree it's probably not totally catering to every adults needs but it's a damn good game.
A lot of the 'Good old' games are, not to mention that period where just a hell of a load of the old system RPGs came out, sifting through those you can find quite a few above decent story-driven games.
Silent Hill 2, Dark Souls, Dear Ester and the upcoming Spec Ops The Line which is about shooting other Americans in the face because they are trying to help refugees after being told not to... Edgy...
Oh look, it's another thread about complaining about modern AAA games.
It feels like every single one of these threads seem to have the mentality that all games that come out now-a-days are like CoD. When that is clearly not true.
You know what? I'm gonna pull a Daystar here. This thread is now about Oddworld. Specifically Abe's Oddysee.
Probably ninja'd here, but holy shit I loved that game. Did you ever play Stranger's Wrath?
Oh Tea: Blood and gore and sex and violence and swearing doesn't make a game mature. It'll ensure that it'll be rated M, but that doesn't mean it is M.
GTA4 is the best example I can find. Yes, it has violence. Yes it has got blood. Yes, it has got sex.
It also has the single greatest story I've ever been blessed with playing through. GTA4's story effected me in ways that no other game (well, maybe Bioshock) has.
Edit: Just to add to that, some of the best games have blood, tears and sex. Some of the most intriguing stories about me include all three. I think it's because some of the best stories are about life, and there is a lot of blood, tears and sex in life.
I´d have to say the way The Witcher 2 portrays nudity is rather tasteful, and the cursing doesn't come off as gratuitous, but rather further authenticates the feeling of immersion.
PS: First post ever on the Escapist! Been lurking for a while, community seems off da sizzle!! (I'm from a non-English speaking country so.... yeah, some things may not sound right)
This might be true, but then perhaps "mature" isn't the best word to be using. After all, how many adults can you think of that would actually meet the definition of some sort idealized notion of "mature." There might be a few, but if being adult? the same adults that have engaged in rape, war, and genocide throughout history? is any measure of what it is to be "mature," then "maturity" is overrated.
A better word would then be "thoughtful, "deep," or maybe even "wise," but that has it's own problems. After all, such words can be incredibly subjective and hard to define when a lot can be lost between the message being encoded and the message being decoded.
Finally, someone gets it. There's a lot of games out there right now which have adult content, but often end up handling it very immaturely; it all comes down to how you handle content, not what that content is. This can actually lead to a juxtaposition of games (and other forms of entertainment) intended for children being more mature than those intended for adults. An easy example is how one has to deal with telling a child that his mother has died; nevertheless, no one's going to argue that Bambi isn't a film children shouldn't watch.
Of course, there's also the matter that quite a few adults (coincidentally, usually the young adults that the "mature" games are targetted towards) in the real world don't really act very maturely.
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As for exactly what could be classified as mature, it's confronting topics which people are uncomfortable dealing with (regardless of their age) and that are morally grey areas. Seeing a game's story and setting indulge itself in sex and violence isn't maturity, that's the immature behaviour of a young adult which hasn't fully grasped the meaning of maturity yet. A game certainly can have sex and violence in it, but it can only be mature if it handles those subjects appropriately.
Another common thing I've noticed in games which claim to be morally grey is that they have a despairing tendency to present both sides as jerks; they may be both right and wrong, but very rarely do they acknowledge that they're doing the wrong thing to accomplish the better goal. It would be better if both sides are fundamentally "good", but know what they're doing isn't right.
Political plotlines are usually fairly good when it comes to maturity, though that requires the presence of moderate parties; that is people in the story who know that both sides are neither entirely right or wrong. Some games get it right, others miss the mark a bit.
---
As incredulous as it might seem, Dragon Age II tackles some of it's content very maturely; it also does several things rather immaturely (all the sexual humour and over-the-top violence) and incorrectly (excessive use of recycled dungeons and waves of enemies), but let's look at what it does right. But we'll keep it in a spoiler to prevent ruining of the game for anyone.
To start off, we have the Mages versus the Templars. Tensions are high throughout the game, but it ends with a sequel hook and the start of a full-blown war.
Both sides have their extremists, such as the Templar heading up "The Tranquil Solution" and blood mages who want nothing more than power. However, there are also moderates who are keeping the peace between them; the Grand Cleric and Ser Thrask are two notable examples, and both actually end up being killed in the crossfire just before the war starts, the death of the former (and the destruction of the Chantry she resided in) in particular being the stroke which starts the war.
But even the extremists know what they're doing is wrong. Anders speech before destroying the Chantry makes it perfectly clear that he knows he's about to do something terrible (explicitly using the words "removing the possibility of a comprimise"), and afterwards accepts his fate at the hands of Hawke's decision. Those aren't the actions of a delusional madman trying to become a martyr, those are the actions who has lost hope for a peaceful resolution. Occano, the official head of the mages in the game, goes to blood magic out of despair at the loss of those under his care. Even Meredith herself, the most fanatical of the Templars (the lyrium sword not helping matters), has a moment of doubt in the middle of the final battle. And in all cases, they continue with their actions because they believe it is what they must do. Not for their own sake, but for "the greater good"; a twisted version of the concept, but the greater good just the same.
Both sides are also right. Mages are oppressed, and in doing they're being pushed towards blood magic out of fear and desperation; the cruel treatment they receive just escalates matters. However, the Templars are also right; mages are dangerous. They're bastions of destructive power, and when possessed by demons (which is a very strong possibility, both willing and unwilling) they can cause untold damage before they're stopped. After all, it's claimed that the Blights are the result of mages trying to gain too much power; and there appears to be some truth to that story, though how much remains to be seen.
---
Anyhow, maturity isn't just acknowledging that jerks, sex, and cruelty are realities; those are quite often the ground work for mature content, but they only earn the label if they're handled correctly. There is some subjectivity on matters as well, but few games are willing to acknowledge that maturity includes confronting the possibility that achieving the right goal can require using questionable means.
So the question becomes less about what's right and what's wrong, but what's going too far for the greater good?
instead of just having attractive women hanging around for people to ogle, it barely has any women and just focuses on being well-written in other regards! Get that!
I don't even know that I'd say it was gratuitous. Given the context of the scenes it was presented in, Witcher 2's nudity was sensible and appropriate.
instead of just having attractive women hanging around for people to ogle, it barely has any women and just focuses on being well-written in other regards! Get that!
To be honest, I've never actually played Dark Souls or Demon Souls; when I got all frothy mouthed and raging when I first clicked on this topic to see the first post I replied to, it was the idea that the Witcher is a mature game when there isn't really anything to it besides killing people with pretty scenery
Get this, it doesn't really have any reason to have a romance sub/plot, so instead of just having attractive women hanging around for people to ogle, it barely has any women and just focuses on being well-written in other regards! Get that!
Granted, I can't say "If you're not going to treat women fairly, take them out of your game" is the best design credo (as opposed to "Treat women fairly in your games"), but hey, it works here. I find it especially fascinating since Amy Henning (currently the writer of the Uncharted series) is a woman. She's like a reverse Chris Claremont/Joss Whedon. The few characters of her own gender that show up in these games are well-written, but she focuses more on writing more interesting male characters than I've seen any man write.
Oh look, it's another thread about complaining about modern AAA games.
It feels like every single one of these threads seem to have the mentality that all games that come out now-a-days are like CoD. When that is clearly not true.
You know what? I'm gonna pull a Daystar here. This thread is now about Oddworld. Specifically Abe's Oddysee.
I have, but I wasn't very good at the game back when it first came out so I never beat it. Now that it's on the PSN though, I'm thinking of giving it another go.
Do you get what I mean? The Witcher dabbles in some light pseudo-socio-political stuff here and there, I do agree, but overall it is not a mature piece of art. It isn't just about whether it has violence or not (though I can see my post you quoted would give that impression); the game I consider most mature with regards to being a work of art is Bioshock. Even though on top of the truly stunning setting, intriguing characters and critique of Objectivism as an ideology, there is a hell of a lot of gratuitous, cartoonish violence as well.
See, I on the other hand felt that Bioshock had no characters of note and was ham-fisted in its response to Objectivism to the point that it failed as a critique of a philosophy that is very deserving of a critique. The setting was pretty good, though.
Most of the characters in Bioshock weren't good enough to be genuinely noteworthy (though most were at least good; McDonaugh, Tenenbaum, Fontaine were all interesting), but Andrew Ryan was absolutely the most stand-out character,
right down to the golf-club scene in which he chooses to die rather than yield, simultaneously proving that even his willpower has limits in his inability to kill his own son, representing the limitations of any man trying to live by an ideology
and generally the stand-out feature of the entire game for me.
Also, I've read over what I've wrote here, and it really seems like I didn't like Witcher 2: that is certainly not the case; I thought the story was good, the world was great and the gameplay was greater (massive improvement on the original). I just don't think its a "mature" game.
No, no we don't. If we did, than the game I bought that's supposedly for people over the age of 18 wouldn't be screened for graphic content on the grounds that kids might see it
What's story driven games? How is terrorism and war un-adult?
And I imagine that if we did, than every game wouldn't have a 20-50 minute hand holding section in which the publishers politely explain to you how video games work.
Hardly mature. Falls more in the teenage hardcore part than actually mature part.
Lots of gratituous female nudity doesn't make something actually mature.
There aren't many truly mature games around. Xenogears, Planescape Torment, Valkyrie Profile and some of the Ultimas come to mind, but that's about it.
Edit: Obviously my list is for role-playing games. My experience is limited outside this genre.
I think the "Witcher" series is getting mentioned a lot because it doesn't pull any punches. Sex scenes are fully available, as with heavy language. That doesn't NECESSARILY make it mature, but that also depends on your view of "maturity".
Hardly mature. Falls more in the teenage hardcore part than actually mature part.
Lots of gratituous female nudity doesn't make something actually mature.
There aren't many truly mature games around. Xenogears, Planescape Torment, Valkyrie Profile and some of the Ultimas come to mind, but that's about it.
Edit: Obviously my list is for role-playing games. My experience is limited outside this genre.
I think the "Witcher" series is getting mentioned a lot because it doesn't pull any punches. Sex scenes are fully available, as with heavy language. That doesn't NECESSARILY make it mature, but that also depends on your view of "maturity".
They do a few things right. IE: All choices have negative & positive consequences, no punches are pulled with regards to gore or nudity or substance abuse, *most* characters have a measure of depth.
And they also do a few things poorly. IE: Mammary The Gathering, needlessly obnoxious dialogue, lack of consideration for fem. gamers (Geralt isn't exactly a character with universal appeal).
So I'm not surprised it's been mentioned, but there's a reason I'm not championing the series as an exemplar of maturity. There's some work to be done yet...
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