Meeting Ellie: How an NPC Became the Face of the Game

[oreso]

While I think the game looks great and I can't wait to play it, I can't help but wonder at the reaction if Ellie was a boy. Most if not all games that feature the protagonist protecting or guiding someone as a prominent feature always has the "protectee" be a girl.

Resident Evil 4
Ico
The Walking Dead
Amy
Bioshock Infinite

And this is most likely because guys - the target demographic for games - would rather protect a girl than a dude. Not trying to rain on the Ellie parade or open a can of worms, just something I think we should keep in the back of our heads.

Yup. Fo' sho'. I love all those games mentioned (mostly), but strong guys helping ineffectual girls is kinda too much of a staple.

Hurray for Bayonetta! Not only does she save the male sidekick repeatedly, but she plays protector for a bit too. She's protecting a little girl still, but that's cool. Not everything has to be uber-trope-subversive (and it's still subversive in other ways).

First time I heard my buddy boast about Bioshock Infinite by saying "But she's not useless! She's invulnerable and gives you stuff!" I was like "... So?". It's a cool mechanic, blah-de-blah, but I'd be more shocked and impressed if it was the woman being shot in the face (and shooting back) on behalf of escorting some weird helpless man.

Cheers!

 

[RicoADF]

Did I mention how much I want this game? Like, so freakin' bad?

Every time I hear more about this game, I just want it even more. Just 14th just can't come quickly enough.

...Dammit, I am THIS close to preordering it from EB games for mail delivery, and I typically don't like doing that.

I already have, it's one of the games that have earned that rare position. It's good to see games that focus on story and character arc rather than just bang bang explosion. Yeah I've seen lots of exposions, and killed more humans/animals/aliens/targets than there are lifeforms on earth. That won't impress me, a good story with interesting characters like this sounds do.

 

[Proverbial Jon]

how could that not inspire even the smallest glimmer of interest in just about anyone?

Mainly because of the large "only on Playstation" label. It doesn't matter how interesting a game might look if the developers make it absolutely clear they don't want most people to play it. Note that that's not a dig at the PS3, it's just a simple fact that most people don't own every gaming system, or even more than one. While a few fanboys love exclusives because it gives them an excuse to boast about how much better a thing someone else made is, they suck for the majority of gamers because all it means is you're arbitrarily banned from playing many games because you happened to buy a different console. Think how insane it would seem if buying a TV from Panasonic meant you couldn't watch a bunch of shows, but buying one from Samsung wouldn't help because then you'd just miss out on a different bunch.

I think you missed the point of my original post. I was referring to the fact that Naughty Dog had to fight to get Ellie on the front cover of the box art because their marketing and focus testing departments said that it wouldn't sell so well if a female character featured so prominently. I was asking why Ellie's presence would be such a deterrent to some gamers. That has nothing to do with console exclusivity.

As it happens, I do agree with you to a point. I bought a second hand PS3 simply so I could play the exclusives. I'm lucky that I was able to do that and, yes, I would have missed out on a lot of good games if I could not. On the surface it would seem that Developers and Publishers are only self limiting their success by putting their franchises on only a single console. However franchises such as Halo, Uncharted, Gears of War, Metal Gear Solid (to a certain extent) seem to enjoy critical and financial success despite the narrowed market. Don't forget that the PS3 and Xbox 360's architecture are quite different from one another so it must be easier to create a higher quality product when devs don't have to worry about making it work on multiple systems... a problem we've recently seen with Skyrim.

 

[cwmdulais]

Ellie just looks like the "Boy" from "The Road" with tits to me, dont see what the fuss is all about

 

[UsefulPlayer 1]

When I saw the first gameplay video way back when they first announced this game, I knew everything that was going on. The relationship with the girl was clear and powerful right off the bat. The fact that the protagonist was so Nathan Drake looking wasn't so bad when you consider there is such an interesting relationship dynamic because of the girl.

Now looking at the box art or anything related to that game, I see the exact same message. I don't know what kind of monkeys they used as focus testers, but I can't imagine anyone being more encouraged to buy the game if just brooding Nathan Drake was on the front.

And if they were, that'd just be misleading advertising.

 

[vhailorx]

I can't help but feel that I would rather play as Ellie. She seems like a much more interesting character than Joel to the point where I'd rather he be the tag along. It could be a more interesting dynamic especially given that Eliie is painted as the knowledgable and brave character.

Agreed, ever since this game was revealed I have thought it would have been a much bolder decision for naughty dog to make Ellie the PC and Joel the NPC. It definitely would have required some careful game design and good AI for Joel. But it really would have made the game stand out from the crowd a whole lot more. Sigh, I guess AAA games are just too expensive for that sort of risk-taking...

 

[the doom cannon]

I can't help but feel that I would rather play as Ellie. She seems like a much more interesting character than Joel to the point where I'd rather he be the tag along. It could be a more interesting dynamic especially given that Eliie is painted as the knowledgable and brave character.

Agreed, ever since this game was revealed I have thought it would have been a much bolder decision for naughty dog to make Ellie the PC and Joel the NPC. It definitely would have required some careful game design and good AI for Joel. But it really would have made the game stand out from the crowd a whole lot more. Sigh, I guess AAA games are just too expensive for that sort of risk-taking...

I think it's way more interesting to watch the more interesting character than play them. You can't really script a controlled ccaracter's actions because that would mean taking control away from the player. But you can script an npcs actions and make them have an awesome story to tell.

I can't help but feel that I would rather play as Ellie. She seems like a much more interesting character than Joel to the point where I'd rather he be the tag along. It could be a more interesting dynamic especially given that Eliie is painted as the knowledgable and brave character.

Agreed, ever since this game was revealed I have thought it would have been a much bolder decision for naughty dog to make Ellie the PC and Joel the NPC. It definitely would have required some careful game design and good AI for Joel. But it really would have made the game stand out from the crowd a whole lot more. Sigh, I guess AAA games are just too expensive for that sort of risk-taking...

I can't help but feel that would be unrealistic. However, doing something like having a boy and girl character around the same age, eg 14, would work a lot better if you're going for the girl protagonist thing. I think it's a bit of a stretch going for the 14 year old girl babysitting the grown man, or the 14 year old boy babysitting the grown woman. If you narrow the age gap then it could work admirably, might even be a great story

 

[Falseprophet]

The NPCs are getting all the attention these days because frankly Player Characters are dull and lifeless. That's assuming "Player Characters" actually exist at all [http://www.whatgamesare.com/2012/07/on-player-characters-and-self-expression-game-design.html].

The trouble is it's pretty much a no-win situation. Man protecting girl opens up all the accusations about how sexist it is to always have a man protecting a girl. Switch the genders and people will complain about the sexism inherent in showing a woman in a mothering role. Make it all men and people will complain about the lack of girls. Make it all girls and people will complain that you're obviously focussing too much on gender and therefore must be sexist. No matter what you do someone will complain that you're sexist, so it's best to ignore the complaints entirely and just focus on making a good game with good characters regardless of gender.

But the easy answer for that is to just not make every "two characters against the world" game into "Player Character protects NPC", but just have more games with male and female characters in equal positions. If Alpha and Bravo from Army of Two were a man and a woman, would it have been a big deal? It's kind of sad that 1990s Sega beat-'em-ups like Golden Axe and Streets of Rage could have female playable characters who were just as effective as their male counterparts, but that dynamic's practically non-existent in current-day action-adventure games. I mean, Elena and Chloe in the Uncharted games are shown to be just as competent as Nathan Drake and Sully and English guy whose name I forget. Why not play as any of the five? It's not like any of those characters are especially compelling or undergo unique experiences.

 

[anian]

Since I don't know the actual timeline of this game, I have to wonder why Ellie isn't combat trained? Must be some years since whatever apocalypse happened, there are ruins around and wouldn't you want your kid to be trained in using a weapon/self-defence in that kind of a world? In other words, a kid that actually wouldn't need that much protection.

I also can't help but feel this game will start off character development/drama with "you need to pull the trigger, Ellie, or this bad man will kill me" moment. I sure hope it doesn't, I'd hope ND are better than that, but still...
I guess I'll never find out since it's rather late to get a PS3 now.

 

[Novan Leon]

Since I don't know the actual timeline of this game, I have to wonder why Ellie isn't combat trained? Must be some years since whatever apocalypse happened, there are ruins around and wouldn't you want your kid to be trained in using a weapon/self-defence in that kind of a world? In other words, a kid that actually wouldn't need that much protection.

I also can't help but feel this game will start off character development/drama with "you need to pull the trigger, Ellie, or this bad man will kill me" moment. I sure hope it doesn't, I'd hope ND are better than that, but still...
I guess I'll never find out since it's rather late to get a PS3 now.

Good point. Carl wouldn't have a problem pulling the trigger, after all.

 

[Murmillos]

As somebody with out a PS3, I wish naughty dog all the best. I wish I could support them in a game of the style....

 

[Jedi-Hunter4]

To me the fact that such adoration and hype is being leveled on a game that hasn't been released yet solely because one of the main protagonists is young and also a girl is the true tell that there is obviously a hunger for something a bit different and a more leveled representation in terms gender, which the fact that there is a market for it is a good thing to me, as I love being a gun totting space marine from time to time, but I would also like to be and interact with real charters in crazy situations.

But on the hype, lets get real, this game has not been reviewed yet, it's not been released and people are talking about it like we should just throw our money at it in a pre-emtive strike. Yes it's also a new IP but it's a new IP that just from the premise has borrowed from a whole multitude of existing media.

Oppressive militaristic Goverment - (millions of sources) V for vendetta, Equilibrium,
Post Apocalypse/Distopian near future - The Book of Eli, I am legend, Mad Max, The postman, Terminator Salvation, the walking dead
Parental relationship in a violent post apocalyptic environment/Protector story - The Road, Children of men, the walking dead

I could give allot more but just wanted to make the point that NONE of the idea's at this stage that we know are new. I mean even the idea of the fungal infection isn't "The Invasion". An in games post apocalypse has been done to death Fallout, S.T.A.L.K.E.R, Metro, The Walking Dead, Gears of War, Tokyo Jungle and I Am Alive (Which even at this stage seems heavily borrowed from). If you read the Original Walking Dead comics as well I think most would agree that the game will struggle to come up with any original ideas on the whole parent/kid relationship.

I will probably give this game ago. Just because there's not a new idea in the bunch doesn't mean it can't make a good game. Just so fed up with the OMG the supporting NPC is a kid and it's a Girl? In any game that want's to be taken as a serious piece of story telling it's what we should expect. The unnecessary hype of that soul aspect, mainly on this site I might add (are you getting paid for each piece?) is so unwarranted it's unreal. People saying their are going to back this game with their cash just because they dared to but a female protagonist on the cover? Seem's just as crazy as people who will refuse to buy because she is there.

 

[maninahat]

I can see this. It reminds me of the incorrect and irrational adoration for Clem from "The Walking Dead" game.

Dont get me wrong, I like Clem and all, but the adoration is entirely too much and it isnt actually merited.

I think it's appropriate. Much of the series depends on you fostering a father/daughter relationship, and most players report doing their damndest to keep Clem safe. That's an astonishingly rare achievement for what is basically a five episode long escort mission featuring a female, child, game character. In most horror games, kids are just a talking, whining, hyper fragile albatross around the player's neck. No wonder people adore her - she's well written enough to not be the typical burden.

 

[Abomination]

I think the Playstation exclusive on this game is incredibly stupid. PC games would love this type of title. Maybe we'll see a port in time but if they haven't ported Infamous I doubt they'll port this.

 

[infohippie]

This game really sounds amazing, I can't wait to give the developers some money and play... Oh. Platform exclusive. Well, fuck that then.

 

[viranimus]

I think it's appropriate. Much of the series depends on you fostering a father/daughter relationship, and most players report doing their damndest to keep Clem safe. That's an astonishingly rare achievement for what is basically a five episode long escort mission featuring a female, child, game character. In most horror games, kids are just a talking, whining, hyper fragile albatross around the player's neck. No wonder people adore her - she's well written enough to not be the typical burden.

And this is why Clem is unjustifiably overhyped. People fail to realize she is NOT a well written developed child character, because as a character she is not a child. She is essentially nothing and devoid of character. Her development is more of an adult mixed in with simply being devoid of emotions. Basically an adult in arrested development. Having a child that represents malformed adult behavior in a child is just as bad if not worse than underdeveloped children.

 

[maninahat]

I think it's appropriate. Much of the series depends on you fostering a father/daughter relationship, and most players report doing their damndest to keep Clem safe. That's an astonishingly rare achievement for what is basically a five episode long escort mission featuring a female, child, game character. In most horror games, kids are just a talking, whining, hyper fragile albatross around the player's neck. No wonder people adore her - she's well written enough to not be the typical burden.

And this is why Clem is unjustifiably overhyped. People fail to realize she is NOT a well written developed child character, because as a character she is not a child. She is essentially nothing and devoid of character. Her development is more of an adult mixed in with simply being devoid of emotions. Basically an adult in arrested development. Having a child that represents malformed adult behavior in a child is just as bad if not worse than underdeveloped children.

I totally disagree. She does talk and behave in a natural way that is fitting for a child, and I don't know what specifically makes you think she's like a stunted adult. Her entire character arc is built upon her wholehearted belief that she is going on a journey to go find her parents with Lee - only a child could be that naive in those circumstances. It's hard for the player (and Lee), because they know it is only going to be a matter of time before the penny drops, and Clem finally figures the reality out for herself. You don't want it to happen, partly because of the emotional trauma, but also because of it being another step towards her losing her childhood to a cynical, violent world.

Clem's childish naivety is also reiterated through smaller instances. A good example of this is one little scene in which Lee asks her if she tasted the salt lick; only a child could answer "I don't know". You immediately know her thinking: She's too embarrassed to admit she did something that stupid, but she knows she shouldn't lie either. It's a dilemma no adult would ever have about something so insignificant.

Clem is neither the perfect, precocious cherub or a brain dead brat who wants a balloon. She feels like a real kid, and you end up wanting to protect her from more than just physical harm (which is always an obligation in games) - you want to avoid exposing her to the harsh realities of the world, instead trying to preserve her and the life she should have had. That's several degrees more complicated than most games have been previously capable of.

 

[viranimus]

That's several degrees more complicated than most games have been previously capable of.

And I disagree because that is a whole lot of over interpretation and what seems like a bit of personal identification.

Sorry, but what you point to is not very convincing evidence. Especially on the false assumptions of no adult could be like that when like it or not far too many are.


Clem fails because Clem is devoid of character one way or another. She has no complexity at all because she has no personal or emotional depth. Sure she has moments when she exibits some childish behavior, but her "character" is basically that of an emotional mute. The problem is because she has next to no emotional response in 90% of her presence in the game is WHY most people adore her, Just as you cited " brain dead brat " yet people are not identifying with that because what they are misconstruing her default state of emotionless response as not being a brat.

Even all that is moot anyway. People like her because she is somewhat thoughtful, logical, helpful, insightful. But that is not a child because we all know as Donna said on "The Cleveland Show" (s4E12) "Kids suck at everything" Edit: Sorry no video of it, but this will suffice

 

[maninahat]

That's several degrees more complicated than most games have been previously capable of.

Clem fails because Clem is devoid of character one way or another. She has no complexity at all because she has no personal or emotional depth. Sure she has moments when she exibits some childish behavior, but her "character" is basically that of an emotional mute. The problem is because she has next to no emotional response in 90% of her presence in the game is WHY most people adore her, Just as you cited " brain dead brat " yet people are not identifying with that because what they are misconstruing her default state of emotionless response as not being a brat.

I disagree with that too. Plenty of your decisions in game are made with Clem present, and she invariably responds to your choices. Sometimes she reciprocates, like with your choice of "naughty words", or she gets upset when you steal or act aggressively, or she wants to speak out when it comes to a serious decision... I think you're confusing "quiet" with "emotionless", because although Clem is fairly shy, she almost always has feelings about current events. Even when she isn't around, many of your choices are made with her in mind, and as I said, there is the long term concern about her parents. She shows agency, she makes decisions by herself, and in the end:

Spoiler: (spoilers)

she chooses to go it alone when you reveal you have no intention of helping her find her parents. Later, you find out through the Stranger that there is another side to her which you (and your character) have neglected, like the fact that her birthday went by totally unacknowledged, along with all the times she felt uncertain or guilty about being complicit in your negative doings. There are a lot of things eating her up, and she feels bad, but she doesn't want to share it with you. So not only does she show her feelings up front, she keeps some locked up. Feelings are as much about what is hidden as what is displayed. That's quite an impressive emotional range for a "brain dead, emotionless brat."

 

[knighteyes]

While I think the game looks great and I can't wait to play it, I can't help but wonder at the reaction if Ellie was a boy. Most if not all games that feature the protagonist protecting or guiding someone as a prominent feature always has the "protectee" be a girl.

Resident Evil 4
Ico
The Walking Dead
Amy
Bioshock Infinite

And this is most likely because guys - the target demographic for games - would rather protect a girl than a dude. Not trying to rain on the Ellie parade or open a can of worms, just something I think we should keep in the back of our heads.

Yep, my thought as well. I can certainly appreciate that these side characters (that may, in a sense, be main characters) are well written and well developed. I can also appreciate that, in more frequent cases, the games may not even exist without them.. but it does seem to stand out a little that they're still all fairly ineffectual female sidekicks/tag alongs. As I posted above, I think the Last of Us could be more interesting if Ellie was the played character and she had to escort a middle aged generally ineffectual male character.

Well, sometimes having the player character be less interesting than the tag-along, can serve as observing the more interesting character instead of playing her. Cause let's face it, it's always a her.

I have the same doubt, what if instead of Joel and Ellie we had Joel and a boy (you choose his name)? Would it receive the same sympathy? Would we care the same for a 14 year old boy?
And one more thing, what if Ellie were the adult and Joel a teen? Which one would be the playable character?

This game isn't out yet, so we're assuming that Ellie will work right and not break our experiencie with the game. I'm afraid this could be a movie with some interaction with the player and I'm not interested in playing that kind of game, so I'm not very excited. I'll wait for the reviews to decide if I'll play it or not.