Melee combat - the way games should be?

[Lightbulb]

This is a short essay about my thoughts on how combat should be handled in games.

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Use potion

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Thrilling....

Is this what sword fighting should be about in a modern PC game?

Graphics are getting better and better each year, sounds are already as good as they are likely to get but the gameplay mechanics have not changed for years!

Imagine a game where you are fighting against a single opponent. Imagine choosing how to tackle the challenge. Do you keep your distance and fight defensively waiting for the moment the strike? Do you draw a second sword to fend off attacks from multiple angles? Do you attack aggressively trying to force and error in your opponent, searching for a weakness in his defence?

Imagine the combat being fluid, your sword moving to parry those of your opponents as they try and strike you.

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Contrast this to current games:

The Baldurs Gate or Guildwars style when people just do the same 'hitting' animation over and over irrespective of what their opponents are doing. Not really awe inspiring is it?

What about the Oblivion style? Its more involved than the BG way of things. You control when you strike, you control how you block. In short you are in control. But what does this mean in practice? I think i showed that pretty well above.

All you do in Oblivion is hold block, wait for them to hit you and click to hit them back. You can also move side to side. Or do what i ended up doing which is jumping on top of the nearest big rock and spamming fireballs are their heads while they sprinted into the rock - great.

I've been thinking about this a lot. Sword fighting is too complex to translate to a game accurately. Look at beat 'em 'ups. Good fun but they are nothing like a real fight. They offer way more options than a regular RPG but its still not enough to be convincing.

What i propose is a system where pick a fighting 'style' and a weapon and have a skill based input into success. The actual footwork and sword play is automatic.

This means that you have control of the strategy and you determine whether you hit (for example by clicking at the right moment) but it can be infinitely more cinematic than current methods.

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What do you actually WANT from a sword fighting game?

For me its:

Strategy/tactics, skill, looking good.

BG and the like have tactics to a certain extent, but thats mostly pickign which spells and buffs to use. There is no skill - you click to start bashing away and thats all the input you have.

Oblivion has skill, if you call holding right click to block then letting go and left clicking repeatedly 'skill'. There is a certain amount of tactics with buffs, potions and the like.

Guild Wars (and other MMO's) has strategy and skill because you have to pick skills and hit them at the right moment.


None of those games are CINEMATIC. You don't look at cool sword fights you just see the same animation over and over. Oblivion is slightly better but there is basically only 2 moves (sure there are others as you get skilled but less than half a dozen). There are literally hundreds of ways to fight, why limit options so much?

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So whats the answer?

The system used in The Witcher has the potential to be better than all of them if it was refined and improved.

For those of you who haven't played this game yet let me give you a brief over view:

When you engage in combat you choose a target. If you are fighting multiple opponents you dodge around trying to hit your opponents. When the opportunity presents itself (in this case i believe its after a certain length of time) you can strike. If you time it right you will launch into a series of cuts which either seriously hurt or even slay your opponent.

There are three different styles, Fast (good against ligthly armoured foes), Strong (good against slower more heaviliy armour opponents) and Group (well you get the picture ).

Over the course of the game you can upgrade the styles, add certain effects, specialise in certain sub styles etc.

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Thats just the beginning of what i would like to see. The systme i would like to see would be as follows:

1) You pick the style and strategy of the fight. The styles of a Samurai, a Roman solder and a 17th century dualist are worlds apart. Wouldn't it be great to be able to use any of them plus all the others?

Certain weapons could be better for certain styles. A short sword is best for stabbing but can also be used to slash. What about a mace? Bludgeoning an opponent is totally different.

There could be certain styles that counter others very well. A whole game could be built on this idea.

2) You have an input into whether or not it works by hitting the timing just right, dice rolls are ok but i prefer to be responsible for failure or success. Luck has its place but i am sick of random 'critical' hits determining the outcome of a fight.

3) Its CINEMATIC! If you got the animation just right you could have some really epic fights between single dualists. If you got it perfect you could tell what was happening purely from visual queues. When fighting multiple opponents you can watch him fend off attacks from all comers. How much better would that be than what we have now?


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Sorry its so long and i hope people have some comments.

Do people agree? Does it sound stupid? Do you think Oblivions combat is actually ok? I'd love to hear other peoples thoughts!

 

[Journeyman4565]

I personally love Oblivion and I believe it is a step in the right direction. Bethesda needed to do something to make it feel more quick and varied, but other than that, I thought it was infinitely better than the to-hit die roll found in Morrowind. I find dice rolls now a days to be a completely arcane way to play anything but a table top RPG. However, I do feel that Oblivion's style is a lot more strategy than simply point and click away. What they should have done is made more moves that you learn on level up. If anything, that is what was lacking. For instance, the hand to hand should have actually leveled up to have a full arsenal of martial arts moves with combos, deflections, blocks, and counters, but it didn't. Same goes for the different weapons as well. I still had a lot more fun with it than Morrowind's system and I thought they did a great job with everything overall in that game. However, in the Elder Scrolls V, there needs to be just as much innovation as there was for Oblivion. They need to take it much further again. The different weapons like axes and swords need to play differently from one another and the player should feel the sense of weight difference between the two. They should add staffs back in and make whole combo systems for these weapons. Other games do it, so I don't see why it would be so hard for them, especially considering that they have a great foundation in Morrowind and Oblivion to start with.

I really disagree with your point about automatic systems though. We have enough of those in Baldur's Gate, KOTOR, Nightwind Dale, etc. Aside from Kotor, every game I've played with automatic battle systems makes me feel like I'm watching a computer simulation rather than interacting and affecting the outcome of the gameplay in a meaningful way. I feel like they are too restrictive and they don't make me feel like I am a part of it. If anything, Morrowind (on really high weapon levels) and Oblivion at least make me feel like I am a part of the worlds that they take place in as opposed to a passive watcher.

I really tend to love hybrid games like Thief, system shock, and Deus Ex (the first one, not invisible war) and I feel like those added a lot to immersive gameplay as well, though that is a whole other topic of conversation.

 

[Lightbulb]

"I really disagree with your point about automatic systems though."

No we agree entirely! I too think that they are boring because you are just watching.

What i want is a system that has the ease of use of Oblvion but with more DEPTH. I think thats what you want too.

However i don't just want combos and cool moves i want to see my opponents swords moving to block mine, i want to see my sword parrying theirs and then stabbing their throat.

Not only that *I* want to control the parry and *I* want to decide to stand for the throat, or cut their arm, or stash the chest, or knock their legs out from under them, or punch them in the face, or use a net to tangle their weapon and then strike.

I want swords, axes, maces and flails to feel different, to give different options and be equally useful for certain tasks. Hell i want different types of SWORD to feel different, to give different options and be equally useful for certain tasks

I want OPTIONS. I want control over my actions, i want to make tactical choices, ideally I want it to look damn good while its doing it too.


What i don't want is simplistic combat whos outcome is random. Nor do i want to see two combatant standing next to one another using the same 'hitting' animation over and over.

Oblivion is a step in the right direction i'll agree but it needs to go further.

 

[magicmonkeybars]

the first gothic had a great sword fighting system if you took the time to learn it.

now a days people just want a click click click sword fight, god forbid they might have to learn or put effort into what they are doing.

 

[Journeyman4565]

No we agree entirely! I too think that they are boring because you are just watching.

Sorry, I think I misunderstood what you meant. I agree, Oblivion now needs to go deeper, along with many other games. Although deeper wouldn't necessarily work for all platforms though (I'm mainly a pc gamer), and I think that could be what made Oblivion feel a little dumbed down. Not specifically because it was on Xbox, but because it wasn't appropriately developed for each system to allow for all the strengths and weaknesses of each machine. The GUI was great for Xbox, but it wasn't a good GUI for PC. The Morrowind one should have been what they made for Oblivion PC. As well, I think that's why so many aspects in the game feel dumbed down, because they had too much to deal with and two totally different types of audience to please. If anything, I say that they should have developed for the PC first as to pay homage to the place where Elder Scrolls series started and make a very tight game, then released the console versions later, tailor made to the the specifications of those systems as well.

 

[Journeyman4565]

the first gothic had a great sword fighting system if you took the time to learn it.

now a days people just want a click click click sword fight, god forbid they might have to learn or put effort into what they are doing.

Agreed. I felt Gothic's system was particularly intuitive if you took the time to really understand it. I liked how you had to hold the mouse as a "ready" button and then actually use the directional keys to provide different swings. This mixed with something like what oblivion already has would probably make a very awesome melee system.

 

[TheHound]

Guys the combat you are describing sounds exactly like that in Dark Messiah. An RPG where you didnt get xp for killing enemies and yet I still insisted on hunting down and fighting every last one simply because it was so much fun. People get knocked around by sword blows potentially knocking them off cliffs or into traps. The comabt is very bloody with full gore and decapitations, and every fight even 1on1 requires an element of thinking. Its actually fun, after playing DM I tried to play Oblivion again and just couldn't. The combat was too boring and had no real feel to it.

 

[Swenglish]

What about the Wii? The console feels like its sole purpose is to offer games with sword combat. Or are you after a better system on regular consoles and pc:s?

Without sounding too much like an Assassins Creed fanboy, (Since it is the only game I have been mentioning on The Escapist, but then again it is the only game I own at the moment) I like the sword combat in it. You can avoid damage by jumping away or by parraying(?), you can inflict damage by counter-attacks, grab and throw or by attacking with one of your four weapons.

People tend to complain that the sword combat is far to repetetive, but that's because they aren't trying to have fun. If you use all of these diffrent weapons and abilities, the combat is far more fun than just the hacky slashy-marathon some claim it is.

 

[Lightbulb]

I will track down the demos of all of them. I think Assassin Creed is moving towards what i would like. I tried to down load the Dark Messiah demo 3 times but it d/ced 3 times half way through.

 

[Wicariusly]

my dream game for the wii is a sword combat game with a focus on realism, like the Gran Turismo of melee combat. but if that was in an rpg it'd be even better.

 

[Lightbulb]

Wiimote + Lightsabre = bestestest game ever

 

[Mage26]

It seems that people would want a system where every button does a different action. For example, several buttons could be dodging different directions, different buttons are different attacks, and so on. In order to get the style of gameplay you want, it would be a very complicated system, bordering the complexity of steel battalion. The reason why no one has made a system like this is because overly complicated systems don't sell.

The wii has potential. I dont think anyone will be able to perfect a system on the wii because it's not sensitive enough. We wont be able to act like we're actually swinging a sword; we'll get red steel swing in the correct direction at the moment. Not the kind of combat you're looking for. Even Force Unleashed I'm sure will be like the Star Wars arcade where you have to swing in the right direction at the right time.

 

[redstar alpha]

i think that we can all agree that so far condemed has done melee combat the best with your blows making your foe fall to his knees and (if you hit him in the right place) spit blood all over the place

 

[shadow skill]

The first step is to realize that a proper fighting engine will never work on a keyboard, they will just end up being clunky. Keyboard spamming is not the answer. If you want to see a really good fighting engine play Ninja Gaiden, the only things it is missing are more control of counters and a more complicated parrying system. But it is probably the best game to use as a base for whst you are looking for.

 

[TheHound]

I disagree I think plenty of games have done proper melee combat on the PC. Severance: Blade of Darkness, Dark Messiah and Gothic series to name a few. Its just what you are comfortable with. If you are thinking about which button to press the game has it wrong. If you are thinking about what move u want to make, and then do it, the game has it right. It doesnt really matter what controll system you are on as long as that is the case. I.e. in Dark Messiah I am thinking, better knock him down the stairs and stab him rather than thinking I better press F then left click, OR worse something rife in console melee, I better bash some buttons.

 

[Don Alejandro]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Die by the Sword. It's probably the closest to a step in the right direction, and I'm surprised it hasn't been ripped off of by now. What we need in the sword fighting is ideas like momentum and things like that put into the fighting engine. Die by the Sword introduced how you can literally move your character's weapon to attack most any way you choose by controlling their arms. More revolutionary by far than a 'press button, receive Attack A, rinse, repeat, etc.' present in virtually every game.

Of course it'll likely ruin anyone's ideas of pulling out two blades, but at least it will give them more realistic ideas. Two blades has an inherent problem of being harder to control, and when you control their movements it should be evident, as well as less concerted strength on the defensive. It'll mean more importance with footwork, too, in order to get more than just steel clanging together as well as replace an artificial 'parry' system with a more realistic over extension or even a loss of the sword.

 

[Chis]

Thief 1/2 has the best melee system I've experienced. I find it weighty and kinetic. It's tremendously satisfying, considering that Garrett is NOT supposed to be a master swordsman. He nevertheless can get in some deadly blows once you know how to execute them.

 

[shadow skill]

Thehound when was the last time you saw a fighting game in the vien of Virtua Fighter, Soul Calibur, DOA or Tekken on a PC? The reason is because keyboards are no good for fluid motions required in those types of games. Every single fighting engine ive come across on the pc ends up being down right clunky at best because the keyboard is basically a dirty hack. It's like trying to play a guitar game on a controller, sure you can do it but a controller designed to mimick the instrument is going to be much better to play with. Take Jedi Academy for example actually performing the various moves that were available was a pain in the ass because getting a single fluid motion out of a keyboard is so damn hard to do, and the fighting engine in that game was actually decent!

 

[eggdog14]

The first step is to realize that a proper fighting engine will never work on a keyboard, they will just end up being clunky. Keyboard spamming is not the answer. If you want to see a really good fighting engine play Ninja Gaiden, the only things it is missing are more control of counters and a more complicated parrying system. But it is probably the best game to use as a base for whst you are looking for.

Yes. thank you for bringing Ninja Gaiden up. It has, in my opinion, by far the best fighting control-system i've seen in a game.

I personally don't play fighting games because the result is based solely on who knows the controls better, which is just stupid, so i wouldn't be able to comment on those.

But yea, PC's are really only good for shooters. This is why computer-elitism never really made sense to me, they are better for shooters, hands down. This cannot be questioned. However, for platformers and fighting games, a keyboard just doesn't offer the amount of dynamic control needed.