Men and homophobia

[Ryotknife]

That reason probably has something to do with it, but i doubt it is the entire reason. Women are also allowed to be more....i dunno how to say it...free-spirited in society (and not the druggy, hippy, sex kind) than men whom must uphold a very rigid attitude. For example, women are allowed to use men's style of haircuts or fashion or attitude or whatnot and no one will bat an eye. Vice versa for men and society treats them like a leper. For example, men are not allowed to publicly grieve unless they are hammered. Being drunk is the only time in which it is socially acceptable to display weakness in a public setting.


It is ingrained in men from day 1 that they must uphold a lifestyle that radiates strength (or at the very least, not weakness). Homosexuality, especially male homosexuality as displayed by the media, goes against this in the minds of straight men (and in doing so frees that group from that lifestyle). So some part of it is that men do not want to accept homosexuality because they do not want to be labeled as weak minded by the other straight men.

This also may be a reason why men are more accepting of homosexual women than men since women are automatically excluded from the "man code" no matter what their orientation and so accepting them does not equate to weakness on the straight men part (plus it helps that a lot of straight men have lesbian fantasies).

I will admit that pecks on the cheeks, hugging, or holding hands between two homosexual men doesnt bother me, but tongue in mouth or gay sex does really bother me. Homosexuals can do whatever they want...just please spare me the details. I do not mind people who happen to be homosexual (i know a few and they are great people), but i do mind people in which being homosexual is the fulcrum of their entire life. Personal experience between the two seems to be about 50/50 for me.


I guess what im saying is there are a lot of reasons, a lot of them complicated. The only way for straight men to uniformly accept homosexual men is to completely abolish the male gender altogether. I will admit, that will be better for everyone in the long run, but you will be resisted every step of the way. Even i would resist such a movement even though i recognize it as an improvement due to how ingrained the gender is in me.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Its a sound theory though a strange one. Im not one to crack the whip on the liberals favorite whipping boy the "straight white male" but it does stand far as I know that gay men dont rape alot. Though with most rape remaining unreported and more so with the whole loss of masculinity associated with a man being raped it stands to reason.

 

[Rose and Thorn]

Good theory, I think I would agree to this for the most part and it does make sense. As long as you cut out all the men that dislike homosexuals mainly because they are violent, idiotic fucks. So perhapes men that feel homophobia in the form of discomfort and lack of understanding/relating, rather then hate.

 

[SciMal]

Men, however, are not. Moran suggests that this is where the fear of gay men comes from. Men are not used to being sexually targeted as women are. She believes that a lot of men feel threatened by homosexual men as they actually have the physical power to harass them as women are harassed on a daily basis.

I have asked a few of my male friends about this and they say that there could be some truth in the matter. None of my male friends are particularly homophobic, but they admitted that they feel uncomfortable knowing that gay men could hold power over them, whereas most heterosexual females physically could not.

How do you feel about this theory?

I think for men confident and secure with themselves it's less a threat and more a non-issue. I'm not gay, so gay guys hitting on me only flatters me (thanks to the stereotype that gay men have pretty good taste for style and physique). If a gay guy ever did feel me up or attempt anything funny without my permission, I'd probably just elbow the fucker in the face and move on - which I assume is the proper reaction regardless of gender or sexuality.

I know I don't like thinking about two guys having sex, especially two guys I know. It's just not what I'm attracted to or am into, and I imagine it's about the same reaction gay men have when thinking about having sex with a woman.

However, it also seems a lot of men are insecure about themselves and their sexuality, so maybe a lot fall under the theory - but I think a more prominent factor is just upbringing and persecuting people different from you. If you're insecure about yourself (which a lot of men are due a slew of factors - including no firm definition of what being a 'man' means, unlike the last few millenia), you're just naturally going to gravitate towards other people who are insecure. Throw in some support for the vilification of a group you're not part of, and you get persecution from a deep-seated (if ignorant) bias.

 

[Sidiron]

I also think homophobia has more to do with the "homosexual" culture than it has to do with homosexual activity.
I have lesbian friends who will back me up on this.

Basically, I feel that two men can do whatever they want to do in the privacy of their own home.
However, This:

Has nothing to do with being attracted to men, and everything to do with being an attention whore.
You don't have to be wearing pink hot pants to have a nice parade or be proud of your vast accomplishment of... having sex.

Erm... Sorry but No, you're "lesbian friends" (despite sounding like your "I'm not homophobic, I know some gays"-clause) must not be quite aware of why most countries have pride events and parades. They are held because there are still countries where being LGBTQ is seen as morally degenerate, subversive and evil; this is before I start talking about the countries that aren't the US like Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Iran where people are executed in some of the most horrfic ways, for doing stuff only in private. Russia has just banned pride rallys, because it is "promoting the gay lifestyle" and has been likened to propoganda, so fine you might just see it as a celebration of "your vast accomplishment of... having sex." but for many many people it is the realisation that despite what many people think and say being of a different sexual persuasion is not something to be ashamed of and to self harm or commit suicide over, but (dare I say it) something to be PROUD of.

Remember, everytime you hold the hand of your partner or share a giggle over your coffee in [Insert branded coffee shop here] or use the word "dear", "darling", "sexy" etc in public, even if it's whispered nothings. You are celebrating your sexuality and straight people are lucky that they will not get some close-minded individual tutting or making a loud comment that it is "disgusting" or "unnatural" but even in "tolerant" countries this happens and as I said in many countries that is still impossible for those that are LGBTQ. I do sincerely apologise for leaping at you over your post, but it's very easy to make jokes and snide comments about Pride Rallys, especially when one of the parades makes it difficult to get to the shops or work.

To return to the Original Topic, even if to echo much of what other people have said; the OP's argument is more of an apologist kind of reasoning, the main problems faced by LGBTQ members are Religion, Culture, and by extension Media.
There are loads of stereotypes, as evidenced above, such as gay men are rampant, bi men are even worse, most lesbians are dykes, but the hot lesbians are fine. All this is merely exacerbating the problem, it isn't the cause.
This is where Media, Culture and Religion are taking the prejudice, running with it and whenever they can taking it another notch up the pole.

I'm a bisexual male, admittedly I do have a sizable libido, but that is probably due to my age. I have had long term relationships with males and females, am what is called "straight-acting" (-sighs-) which means I easily pass as one of the lads, well one of the nerds would be more apt . I work in a pub and get treat like all the other ale-drinking fellas but can be rather camp when I want to be, this doesn't mean I grope any bloke I see, like I don't grope any female I come across. Much like the vast majority of people around and about.

 

[BeeGeenie]

I also think homophobia has more to do with the "homosexual" culture than it has to do with homosexual activity.
I have lesbian friends who will back me up on this.

Basically, I feel that two men can do whatever they want to do in the privacy of their own home.
However, This:

Has nothing to do with being attracted to men, and everything to do with being an attention whore.
You don't have to be wearing pink hot pants to have a nice parade or be proud of your vast accomplishment of... having sex.

Erm... Sorry but No, you're "lesbian friends" (despite sounding like your "I'm not homophobic, I know some gays"-clause) must not be quite aware of why most countries have pride events and parades. They are held because there are still countries where being LGBTQ is seen as morally degenerate, subversive and evil; this is before I start talking about the countries that aren't the US like Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Iran where people are executed in some of the most horrfic ways, for doing stuff only in private. Russia has just banned pride rallys, because it is "promoting the gay lifestyle" and has been likened to propoganda, so fine you might just see it as a celebration of "your vast accomplishment of... having sex." but for many many people it is the realisation that despite what many people think and say being of a different sexual persuasion is not something to be ashamed of and to self harm or commit suicide over, but (dare I say it) something to be PROUD of.

To return to the Original Topic, even if to echo much of what other people have said; the OP's argument is more of an apologist kind of reasoning, the main problems faced by LGBTQ members are Religion, Culture, and by extension Media.
There are loads of stereotypes, as evidenced above, such as gay men are rampant, bi men are even worse, most lesbians are dykes, but the hot lesbians are fine. All this is merely exacerbating the problem, it isn't the cause.
This is where Media, Culture and Religion are taking the prejudice, running with it and whenever they can taking it another notch up the pole.

I'm a bisexual male, admittedly I do have a sizable libido, but that is probably due to my age. I have had long term relationships with males and females, am what is called "straight-acting" (-sighs-) which means I easily pass as one of the lads, well one of the nerds would be more apt . I work in a pub and get treat like all the other ale-drinking fellas but can be rather camp when I want to be, this doesn't mean I grope any bloke I see, like I don't grope any female I come across. Much like the vast majority of people around and about.

I'm sorry you took it that way. I understand the purpose of gay pride parades, but I'm not sure many gay people do. My point was that gay pride parades seem to be less about being proud of being gay and more about being as "in-your-face" as possible and dressing as fetishistically as possible. They are perfectly capable of expressing their pride in a more dignified manner, and it might be a good thing for the homosexual community in general if they stopped screaming "Look how different we are! We're strange and unconventional!" and instead said "Hey, we're not all that different after all. Yes we prefer gay sex, but besides that we're just like everyone else."

All I'm saying is why not show up to a gay pride parade in slacks and a nice dress shirt. Is the vinyl and leather BDSM gear really necessary? It seems like they are going out of their way to reinforce all those unfair stereotypes.

 

[Daveman]

I don't know if any of that's true. Men tend to be more aggressive generally though so it would make sense that we'd be generally more aggressive to homosexuals.

Men alledgedly think it's degrading to be a woman.

I don't know about that. It's just we quite like being men and we don't want to swap to something that confuses/annoys/arouses us.

 

[Sidiron]

I'm sorry you took it that way. I understand the purpose of gay pride parades, but I'm not sure many gay people do. My point was that gay pride parades seem to be less about being proud of being gay and more about being as "in-your-face" as possible and dressing as fetishistically as possible. They are perfectly capable of expressing their pride in a more dignified manner, and it might be a good thing for the homosexual community in general if they stopped screaming "Look how different we are! We're strange and unconventional!" and instead said "Hey, we're not all that different after all. Yes we prefer gay sex, but besides that we're just like everyone else."

All I'm saying is why not show up to a gay pride parade in slacks and a nice dress shirt. Is the vinyl and leather BDSM gear really necessary? It seems like they are going out of their way to reinforce all those unfair stereotypes.

Usually, in terms of day to day life, I agree with you, there is no reason to go running around in tight pink trunks, despite how nice it may be to perv .
The whole BDSM bondage gear though is just a specific subset of the community and is hardly like every prider is out in those outfits it is, like it is meant to do, saying Hey, we are LGBTQ and we like this, if you are the same and like this then come along and don't be ashamed. This is what it is about, and just because some find the practice distasteful or not their cup of tea, doesn't mean it should be hushed and ignored, otherwise what's the point in doing the parades if we're going to censor certain aspects?
Think of it like the 4th of July that I believe America celebrates with a certain fervour, it is the one day when you can be as diabolically patriotic and imperialistic as you like and no one bats an eyelid despite the fact that your troops are blowing chunks out of the Middle East, because at the end of the day it is the one day of the year that you get to do it.
You wouldn't start walking around asking the loud mouthed males, whooping and hollering as a barrage of fireworks go off (yes I know alot of this is stereotyping) to tone it down and conduct themself in a dignified manner?
The pride issue is exactly the same, and this apologism is more harmful than helpful when people say "Well you're just attracting our ire, when you go out and be happy and gay, what do you think your doing?" It's the idealogical version of the bully doing the whole "Why are you hitting yourself?!" routine.
Which is why we need more Pride parades, so we reach a stage where we don't have, what we are seeing in the news, Lesbians being chucked off buses and being beaten up by gangs; does this at all remind you of anything in your past? Something which the church was professing as evil and harmful to the fabric of society? But then it did a complete U-turn and said "Oh no, we liked black people all the time."???? It would be lovely if in 20-40 years time, they did exactly the same with the LGBTQ community, even if it does result in 200+ suicides in the mean time....

 

[Alandoril]

You see the one thing I don't get is that just because a man is gay doesn't mean he acts feminine. I mean, yeah sure there are those that do but it's not always the case. I'm bi, and I'm not feminine even in the slightest.

The negative and frankly bafflingly hostile reaction of some men to homosexuals mainly stems from fear; not of the other, but of themselves.

And for those who say that the very idea of homosexual males makes you want to get violent, I feel nothing but pity for you.

Who a man shares a bed with does not undermine the fact that he is a man.

 

[Rastien]

I dunno, doesn't apply to me personally i'm straight but have had a couple gay guys hit on me. To be honest i was flattered ^^, unfortuntley whilst i can appreciate a good looking guy i have no intrest in doing the dirty. Which makes me wonder if i act in a gay way to set peoples gaydars off xD.

Ah well, anyway the theory? yeah i guess it could be true. It's only natural to fear what we don't understand you see it all the time with people biggoted against religeons which they don't understand. For example people can be fearful of muslims, the news will always tear an islamic mans past to pieces when they are involved in breaking the law "Extremist Links" could mean simply they knew a guy from uni who turned out to be a fanatic.

 

[MasochisticAvenger]

I think it's mostly to do with how society views men and women. When two women are seen as being affectionate with each other (hugging, kissing on the cheek, etc...) most people don't immediately think "gay". It's normal to see it. However, if two guys are seen as even slightly close, everyone immediately calls them gay. It's like J.D. and Turk from Scrubs. Everyone has made the joke how they are gay, but if they were women, everyone would probably just consider them to be close friends.

Still, I've seen women be freaked out by lesbians so it definitely goes both ways, and, like most things, depends more on the specific person rather than their gender.

 

[Zack Alklazaris]

I think its more because of social stigma. You do not want to be known as that gay guy/girl in this world right now. It could ruin your life. I think fear drives people to be homophobic above the others.

 

[Xixikal]

Pretty much all my male friends have some degree of fear when it comes to homosexuals. I would agree that it's because men are so used to being in control of sexual situations, when they're put in a position where they feel threatened, they tend to get aggressive and panicked.

 

[Elate]

The intimidation/anger more likely comes from the fact that this gay man might view them as the taker, the submissive partner, the *****. It has nothing to do with physical intimidation, it's just sexual intimidation and character judgement.

Boy you sure got a perdy mouth.

But yeah, I think it's all about masculinity, being gay is for some reason seen as being not manly (Have you SEEN some of those bears? Good lord they're terrifying.) and god forbid anyone even insinuate that a manry manry straight man be even tangentially on par with a sissy gay guy, because it would be throwing the formers masculinity into doubt.

 

[Xifel]

snip

It could be some truth to the matter. However I do not think the purely physical power is the only factor, but more the about confronting something (for many men) new while still staying within the socially accepted code of conduct.

I've been groped by women in my one of my jobs (cab driver) and have had been called "tasty" in the office I worked previously. In both these cases it was kind of uncomfortable for me but I believe I felt uncomfortable because I didn't know how to make a proper response to it, both according to social conduct (i.e not to cause a scene) as well as reacting in a appropriate way (i.e not take offence from a probably jokingly meant statement of my appearance).

I can relate the feeling to the feeling when I meet and are hit on by gay men. I don't know how to properly respond and decline their advances, while still avoiding making things socially awkward. I do not however feel any physical threat against me, as I'm well aware I capable to handle myself.

What I'm bascially is trying to say is that homophobia could be because it is unknown and men don't really know how to handle the unknown in a good way. Or something...

 

[BeeGeenie]

I'm sorry you took it that way. I understand the purpose of gay pride parades, but I'm not sure many gay people do. My point was that gay pride parades seem to be less about being proud of being gay and more about being as "in-your-face" as possible and dressing as fetishistically as possible. They are perfectly capable of expressing their pride in a more dignified manner, and it might be a good thing for the homosexual community in general if they stopped screaming "Look how different we are! We're strange and unconventional!" and instead said "Hey, we're not all that different after all. Yes we prefer gay sex, but besides that we're just like everyone else."

All I'm saying is why not show up to a gay pride parade in slacks and a nice dress shirt. Is the vinyl and leather BDSM gear really necessary? It seems like they are going out of their way to reinforce all those unfair stereotypes.

Usually, in terms of day to day life, I agree with you, there is no reason to go running around in tight pink trunks, despite how nice it may be to perv .
The whole BDSM bondage gear though is just a specific subset of the community and is hardly like every prider is out in those outfits it is, like it is meant to do, saying Hey, we are LGBTQ and we like this, if you are the same and like this then come along and don't be ashamed. This is what it is about, and just because some find the practice distasteful or not their cup of tea, doesn't mean it should be hushed and ignored, otherwise what's the point in doing the parades if we're going to censor certain aspects?
Think of it like the 4th of July that I believe America celebrates with a certain fervour, it is the one day when you can be as diabolically patriotic and imperialistic as you like and no one bats an eyelid despite the fact that your troops are blowing chunks out of the Middle East, because at the end of the day it is the one day of the year that you get to do it.
You wouldn't start walking around asking the loud mouthed males, whooping and hollering as a barrage of fireworks go off (yes I know alot of this is stereotyping) to tone it down and conduct themself in a dignified manner?
The pride issue is exactly the same, and this apologism is more harmful than helpful when people say "Well you're just attracting our ire, when you go out and be happy and gay, what do you think your doing?" It's the idealogical version of the bully doing the whole "Why are you hitting yourself?!" routine.
Which is why we need more Pride parades, so we reach a stage where we don't have, what we are seeing in the news, Lesbians being chucked off buses and being beaten up by gangs; does this at all remind you of anything in your past? Something which the church was professing as evil and harmful to the fabric of society? But then it did a complete U-turn and said "Oh no, we liked black people all the time."???? It would be lovely if in 20-40 years time, they did exactly the same with the LGBTQ community, even if it does result in 200+ suicides in the mean time....

Fair enough. You make some good points (Though I don't think our soldiers would be holding a 4th of July parade on the streets of Baghdad, no matter how blindly patriotic they are.) I was just trying to say that some homophobia may have more to do with the homosexual culture than the homosexual act itself.

 

[Sparrow]

Sounds like bullshit. Of course, most feminist theories sound like bullshit to me. Rarely do I hear one and go "you know what, that sounds pretty logical!" I think probably because hardcore feminists (who just happen to be the most vocal feminists) have ruined it for regular feminists, but also because feminists have a way of making everything about a battle between the sexes. A guy doesn't want to cook? Oh, clearly it's because he hates women for some reason or another. It couldn't just be because he doesn't fucking like cooking.

For the most part, if there's one thing I've learnt about sexual drives within men and women it's that women are simply better at hiding theirs. Or, possibly, it's not that they're better per se... more just that they have more of a reason to. Overly sexual women are still looked down upon more than overly sexual men, by women and men alike. It may be the 21st century, but clearly some people just haven't gotten the memo. I think this relates to the topic quiet neatly, because I believe women are also much better at hiding sexual prejudice better than men. I know countless women that think bisexual and gay women are disgusting, but are all smiles and laughter the minute they're confronted with one. Hell, some of my female family members are pretty anti-lesbian but they'd never admit to it in front of a crowd.

If I'm going to be honest, gay dudes do kind of freak me out a little. I'm not saying "BURN THEM AT THE STAKE!" before anyone freaks out, I'm just saying I wouldn't like to watch two guys kiss. I don't think there's any deep rooted hatred to it or some reason in my childhood that makes me dislike it, I simply think the reasoning is that I'm straight. Again, not saying all straight people must be weirded out by gay folks. I just think in my case, due in part to my sexual orientation, I find it weird. And I think that's natural. And I hate to use this crappy little argument that EVERYONE uses, but I do have gay friends and I'm cool with them. Clearly it's just the sexual nature of homosexuality that I'm not 100% with, and for the most part I believe that's because it's anti-arousing for me. Like old people sex. Yuck.

So, I guess my point is... that I don't really have a point. Just feels good to type out some of my opinions on the matter. Also, if it helps, I'm English too.

 

[Relish in Chaos]

I forgot to mention this. Females are still kind of seen in society as ?second-rate? or not the default. So people would think, ?Why would you, a man, act like that?? Like, a while ago, my friend even said, ?If you?re a man, you should act like one!? In some people?s eyes, homosexuality and the certain characteristics that can go with it (I said ?can?; I?m not stereotyping here) is still a choice. There?s a gay guy in my year at school who, for as long as I?ve known him, has sounded feminine, but he talks normally. Yet my friend insists that he?s putting it on, for whatever reason. He doesn?t have a limp wrist, he?s not a transvestite, he doesn?t bang on about musicals?he?s just a bit camp.

Also, many men just can?t understand attraction towards other men, whereas both men and women alike can understand attraction towards women because the media?s hammering it into both genders? eyes every second of the days. I mean, no-one?s telling men to be well-groomed and act overwhelmingly confident, or at least, not as much as those telling women to shave their pits and bush, put on make-up, wear tight miniskirts and high heels, etc. It's still expected for women to do their hair and put on a nice dress to a formal event, whereas men can get away with not shaving and smart-casual wear. For example, my female friend (she has something of a tomboyish energy) mentioned that she didn?t really want to wear one of those fancy dresses for prom, but she ended up doing so anyway because all the other girls were.

The only films I can think of in the last 10 years that cater fanservice for women are Casino Royale (the scene where a shirtless Daniel Craig?s walking out of the sea), Twilight and, most recently, Magic Mike. I can think of hundreds of films in the same time span that cater fanservice for men. And, well, the sexual aspects of women are just more obvious, for lack of a better explanation.

However, I will say one thing that lesbians have worse than men. It?s easy for a gay man to be friends with a woman, because the woman doesn?t have to worry about him just being friends with her to get in her pants. But it can arguably be hard for lesbians to be friends with a man, because the man could be so overcome with attraction (even if they?re butch, tits and a vagina can be enough for a lot of men) that he can?t think of anything more than trying to ?turn her back?.

I know 2 people who bat for the other team and they're sound enough.

To be honest, I feel a bit disgusted when I see two blokes kiss, kind of like when you see someone pick their nose. I mean they're entitled to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't affect me but I still find it disgusting.

Yeah, that's because it's not something you see every day: two men showing that level of affection towards each other. Whereas, if two girls do it, it's not quite as awkward because of the hotness and my aforementioned example of when two girls hold hands, it's just a friendly gesture, but when two guys do it, they're playing "Gay Chicken".

It's understandable, considering the society we live in, but I do think it shouldn't be kept under the wraps and made into a big deal whenever it is rarely talked about or shown, since that way, more people would be desensitized to it and less prone to hostility.

 

[HardkorSB]

I read an amazing book recently called 'How To Be a Woman' by Caitlin Moran. In this book, Moran discusses the fact that men tend to be a lot more homophobic than women. I can't speak for all countries but this is definitely the case in England. She goes on to talk about whether or not this is to do with the fact that men are intimidated by gay men.

Moran says that women are used to being treated as objects of a sexual nature. Be it getting whistled at in the street, or having a stranger grope you on a train. As a woman of only 20 years old I can already say that incidents such as these occur regularly. Woman are constantly pestered about their sexuality and are used to people picking up on it.

Men, however, are not. Moran suggests that this is where the fear of gay men comes from. Men are not used to being sexually targeted as women are. She believes that a lot of men feel threatened by homosexual men as they actually have the physical power to harass them as women are harassed on a daily basis.

I have asked a few of my male friends about this and they say that there could be some truth in the matter. None of my male friends are particularly homophobic, but they admitted that they feel uncomfortable knowing that gay men could hold power over them, whereas most heterosexual females physically could not.

How do you feel about this theory?

A lot of it is cultural.
If there wasn't any sort of social stigma associated with men hanging out with gay men, there would be a lot less "fear".
Also, this Moran person is making a big mistake by trying to find THE reason. There is no single reason.

I met only a few guys who were what you could have called afraid of gays and, from their explanations, it seemed that it's similar to things like fear of spiders.
They're just different and you're not sure how you should react to them and you're not sure how they're reacting to you so, to prevent any dangers (whether the dangers are really there or not), you try to distance yourself from them.
Back when we were on par with other animals, that kind of thinking was useful because you took less risks and had a bigger chance of living longer.
I think that things like racism, homophobia etc. are just leftovers in our genes from our animal times. Some of those things were also carried over to our cultures so, in many cases, they are reinforced by society.

 

[Something Amyss]

Moran says that women are used to being treated as objects of a sexual nature. Be it getting whistled at in the street, or having a stranger grope you on a train. As a woman of only 20 years old I can already say that incidents such as these occur regularly. Woman are constantly pestered about their sexuality and are used to people picking up on it.

Women also tend to be "trained" to be okay with flirting with other girls, and wanting women is treated as the standard anyway (Because men matter). It's also a good chunk of why it's more acceptable for a woman to wear "male" clothing than a man to wear "female" clothing.

Women should aspire to be men, men should consider girly stuff beneath them.

I just thought I'd add that in, because I think it's a very important piece of the puzzle.