Men and Sex/Conquests
- Thread starter Paragon Fury
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Don't look for weird shit from nutbars, on the internet. This isn't the real world, it's the portion of humanity who can't exist in the real world and so they troll the internet.
Stop worrying about stuff that only shows up ONLINE or in SCHOOLS.
Stop worrying about stuff that only shows up ONLINE or in SCHOOLS.
I've met guys that treat sex as a conquest or women as objects. They aren't that rare, but they also tend to keep to their type and/or hide it from their less warped friends. So its something you mostly see if you are the target.
To a certain extent they know that their behavior is frowned upon so they only behave in such a way when they feel safe. It isn't at all natural though and I'd go as far to say that it is a result of either disassociation(cuz they may not treat female family members the same way), or a personalty disorder. Even back in the day when women had less rights men didn't fully view women as objects. For instance in Victorian times if a woman wasn't interested in being courted by a certain man he was expected to respect her wishes.
To a certain extent they know that their behavior is frowned upon so they only behave in such a way when they feel safe. It isn't at all natural though and I'd go as far to say that it is a result of either disassociation(cuz they may not treat female family members the same way), or a personalty disorder. Even back in the day when women had less rights men didn't fully view women as objects. For instance in Victorian times if a woman wasn't interested in being courted by a certain man he was expected to respect her wishes.
There's definitely some truth to this. Men are competitive and defined by their achievements. I agree with the idea. The problem is in its execution.
A real man is always in competition with himself. I know that sounds like some hippy dippy, New Agey bullshit. But most of the time, a man in society is always striving for self improvement...whether it's some sports achievement, conquering a level in your favorite video game, learning a new language or yes, successfully getting a date with that hot chick.
When I finally got the nerve to ask my wife out on our first date, the "prize" wasn't my wife...it was the date. When I was single and running around asking women for their digits, the prize was the phone number, not the girl herself.
Somewhere along the line, this got lost and attainment of the achievement got transferred to the person. And now we have a generation of sociopaths who think it's okay to text dick pics to a girl and get violent if she turns him down. But these pricks don't get a pass because it's "the nature of a man". Hell, a little critical thinking , common sense and empathy will immediately tell you why this behavior is wrong.
The problem is that they're not being taught how to properly do this by the previous generations (mostly the Boomers, but some of us Gen Xers as well). I think there's a failure on the mentor's part (and I have a host of reasons for that, but I'll spew that out some other time...).
It's a fairly deep problem with several factors. But anytime it's brought up, people just tell the guys to shut up and quit being whiny babies. So nothing gets done.
A real man is always in competition with himself. I know that sounds like some hippy dippy, New Agey bullshit. But most of the time, a man in society is always striving for self improvement...whether it's some sports achievement, conquering a level in your favorite video game, learning a new language or yes, successfully getting a date with that hot chick.
When I finally got the nerve to ask my wife out on our first date, the "prize" wasn't my wife...it was the date. When I was single and running around asking women for their digits, the prize was the phone number, not the girl herself.
Somewhere along the line, this got lost and attainment of the achievement got transferred to the person. And now we have a generation of sociopaths who think it's okay to text dick pics to a girl and get violent if she turns him down. But these pricks don't get a pass because it's "the nature of a man". Hell, a little critical thinking , common sense and empathy will immediately tell you why this behavior is wrong.
The problem is that they're not being taught how to properly do this by the previous generations (mostly the Boomers, but some of us Gen Xers as well). I think there's a failure on the mentor's part (and I have a host of reasons for that, but I'll spew that out some other time...).
It's a fairly deep problem with several factors. But anytime it's brought up, people just tell the guys to shut up and quit being whiny babies. So nothing gets done.
Yeah, but when women are being the alpha she-wolf or the lioness/cougar, whatever the popular term is for those who are sexually driven and accomplished, most men always see them as whores and sluts and other less savory terms. As if women who are "playas" goes against some natural order or they're just jealous and/or upset that this person knows the game.Sceadu said:
And with intellectual achievements, its kind of the same deal, only that they are undeserving of whatever they have and might've got it through under-handed means.
It's messed up either way.
No we don't, and it would be terrific if you could lay off the industrial strength generalizations across cultures, ages, socioeconomic backgrounds for the whole fucking planet.crimsonspear4D said:
'Mkay?
It's in human nature to assume that everyone shares our own worst qualities; that what each of us deals with is a universal "Nature".RiseOfTheWhiteWolf said:
It isn't. It's probably just you.
Yes, my sympathy for the oppressed nerd dude act vanishes entirely when "Maybe not treating women as people is okay" is seen as an opinion worth considering.Thaluikhain said:
It's times like this I think the negative nerd stereotypes are something we've all collectively earned.
That's the nicest thing I can say in this thread without getting a warning.
I apologize, I should've stated that it wasn't something that I thought was widespread or common knowledge or anything, but it IS something that I have witnessed more than a few times. It's almost hilarious, and kinda depressingly surprising, the hypocrisy you can witness in that type of environment.Lacedaemonius said:
Like a friend who treats women like tissue paper, thinks he's a stud, and nothings wrong with that, but then he meets a woman who bags and tags him and doesn't call him back or something and now she's a ***** or a slut and he's all bitter and shit about it. He's an asshole and not indicative of my entire gender, but there are entire groups of d-bags like him that have been popping up and getting loud and, well, they kinda don't make it easy saying "hey, I'm not like that, I just want to have fun."
Men are hypocritical assholes wasn't the point I was trying to make, it's that women can be sexually driven and confident but -some- guys view it as an insult or unnatural, or something.
Most feminist critiques of these behaviors do note that men are trained to behave in exactly those ways by society. However, the fact that things are that way doesn't mean that things should be that way. If someone is consciously aware of the previously subconscious biases that have been trained into them, it is possible to mitigate them. For example, men (and women, for that matter) are subtly trained to put less stock in what women say than what men say. Being aware of that, it is possible to make a conscious effort to pay attention to what everyone says equally. Furthermore, if you're aware that you treat the women you have sex with as trophies, you could make a conscious effort to treat them like humans instead.
So yes, men are trained to act in a particular way by the society in which they're raised. Indeed, that's pretty obviously the case because so many men do act in those ways and a large potion of people behaving in the same way doesn't just occur at random. That doesn't make it okay. Saudi Arabians stoning women for getting raped is a culturally trained behavior too, but that doesn't make it justified. If immoral behavior is culturally instilled, all that means is that the culture is, at least in part, immoral.
So yes, men are trained to act in a particular way by the society in which they're raised. Indeed, that's pretty obviously the case because so many men do act in those ways and a large potion of people behaving in the same way doesn't just occur at random. That doesn't make it okay. Saudi Arabians stoning women for getting raped is a culturally trained behavior too, but that doesn't make it justified. If immoral behavior is culturally instilled, all that means is that the culture is, at least in part, immoral.
I'm gonna disagree, like, a lot. I think it is extraordinarily weird that anyone would treat any sentient/sapient creature, human or not, like an object. But then I have a feeling we are playing really fast and loose with the term "object" here, which has become exceedingly common when talking about male/female relationship dynamics.
Whether a woman or man is treated as an object seems to be linked more to culture than to the natural inclinations of the species. If women are viewed as something that you defacto "own" by taking away her agency, there's a good chance more men will find it acceptable to act on them without taking their own humanity into consideration. In cultures where women are seen as being independent agents and given the right to act as such, a man treating her like he owned her would fall outside of that cultural norm and thus be an outlier.
To say that it is simply natural for humans to see other humans as objects is, I think, a bizarre statement. I say that knowing full well that what people mean when they say "object" or "objectified" in this context is almost so broad as to be meaningless. I say that because in some significant theories dealing with humans and objectification, merely being acted on renders one an "object" even though humans acting on one another carries no inherent assertion by the actor that the person they are acting on isn't an independent, sapient/sentient creature.
Is it natural for men to desire to procreate with many women? There's some reason to think so, though this drive is certainly mitigated or enhanced by culture. But that doesn't mean that a guy who sleeps around a lot thinks the women he's sleeping with aren't people. The logical leaps between how people tend to act and think vs what meaning is assigned to those acts/thoughts seem rather poorly supported.
Whether a woman or man is treated as an object seems to be linked more to culture than to the natural inclinations of the species. If women are viewed as something that you defacto "own" by taking away her agency, there's a good chance more men will find it acceptable to act on them without taking their own humanity into consideration. In cultures where women are seen as being independent agents and given the right to act as such, a man treating her like he owned her would fall outside of that cultural norm and thus be an outlier.
To say that it is simply natural for humans to see other humans as objects is, I think, a bizarre statement. I say that knowing full well that what people mean when they say "object" or "objectified" in this context is almost so broad as to be meaningless. I say that because in some significant theories dealing with humans and objectification, merely being acted on renders one an "object" even though humans acting on one another carries no inherent assertion by the actor that the person they are acting on isn't an independent, sapient/sentient creature.
Is it natural for men to desire to procreate with many women? There's some reason to think so, though this drive is certainly mitigated or enhanced by culture. But that doesn't mean that a guy who sleeps around a lot thinks the women he's sleeping with aren't people. The logical leaps between how people tend to act and think vs what meaning is assigned to those acts/thoughts seem rather poorly supported.
Bruh, you need to go to a real therapist or some shit.
You need help.
Maybe lay off the anime titties and porn too, shit is obviously really fucking with your perceptions of reality.
You need help.
Maybe lay off the anime titties and porn too, shit is obviously really fucking with your perceptions of reality.
Alright a lot to go through here, but I'll hit a few of the things I noticed right out;
1: No, I didn't "skedaddle" just because I got a negative reaction. I went to bed because I have to leave for work at 03:00 in the morning. Paragon needs sleep too.
2: I think people are taking the most extreme definition of objectification here just to try and add something to be mad about; everyone objectifies everything as a normal part of your brain assessing things. This doesn't mean you don't understand that someone has feelings or their own needs or their own personality, but rather that most people, particularly men just don't care until that person has been elevated to the point where caring is an acceptable cost for what that person can offer.
3: This is the difficult one; since I'm no longer in college, most of the articles that I could link that support my claim earlier are locked behind pay walls and fees. Instead I have to rely on weaker free articles;
- Objectification Theory being present and a significant part of modern feminism/feminist theory
http://www.apa.org/education/ce/sexual-objectification.pdf
Self-objectification in Men/Women
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1740144509000412
Scarcity or belief in scarcity of mates correlates (strongly) with increased male competition and recklessness
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/01/120112134334.htm
There were a couple more I could've linked, but they were so SJW'y that even Winter Wyvern might've gagged.
4: I never said I would take 2D over real; rather I've accepted that I'm so far down on the desirability scale and so...messed up, for lack of better phrasing right now - that any meaningful relationships with women won't occur for me and it's not worth the humiliation, awkwardness and wasting other people's time and making them uncomfortable/unhappy to try.
5: As much as we don't like to admit it, humans are still driven by our base animal brains. Everything we do is still controlled and guided by those base principles; we've just added tons of filters on top of it as society has advanced. And yes, that means people of both genders size each other up using some very...demeaning tactics and measures. Point being...men haven't advanced as much because the older tactics and values are still effective, work and are easy enough to understand and employ. Most of the people, even the "nice" ones that men try to model themselves after didn't get to the point of being envied by being nice - they got there by doing things that even most men would find disagreeable in order to get the point where they could employ "nicer" tactics and values without fear of being overtaken by their competition.
1: No, I didn't "skedaddle" just because I got a negative reaction. I went to bed because I have to leave for work at 03:00 in the morning. Paragon needs sleep too.
2: I think people are taking the most extreme definition of objectification here just to try and add something to be mad about; everyone objectifies everything as a normal part of your brain assessing things. This doesn't mean you don't understand that someone has feelings or their own needs or their own personality, but rather that most people, particularly men just don't care until that person has been elevated to the point where caring is an acceptable cost for what that person can offer.
3: This is the difficult one; since I'm no longer in college, most of the articles that I could link that support my claim earlier are locked behind pay walls and fees. Instead I have to rely on weaker free articles;
- Objectification Theory being present and a significant part of modern feminism/feminist theory
http://www.apa.org/education/ce/sexual-objectification.pdf
Self-objectification in Men/Women
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1740144509000412
Scarcity or belief in scarcity of mates correlates (strongly) with increased male competition and recklessness
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/01/120112134334.htm
There were a couple more I could've linked, but they were so SJW'y that even Winter Wyvern might've gagged.
4: I never said I would take 2D over real; rather I've accepted that I'm so far down on the desirability scale and so...messed up, for lack of better phrasing right now - that any meaningful relationships with women won't occur for me and it's not worth the humiliation, awkwardness and wasting other people's time and making them uncomfortable/unhappy to try.
5: As much as we don't like to admit it, humans are still driven by our base animal brains. Everything we do is still controlled and guided by those base principles; we've just added tons of filters on top of it as society has advanced. And yes, that means people of both genders size each other up using some very...demeaning tactics and measures. Point being...men haven't advanced as much because the older tactics and values are still effective, work and are easy enough to understand and employ. Most of the people, even the "nice" ones that men try to model themselves after didn't get to the point of being envied by being nice - they got there by doing things that even most men would find disagreeable in order to get the point where they could employ "nicer" tactics and values without fear of being overtaken by their competition.
Yes, actually, those really are universal elements of the human condition. The emotions of envy, aggression, and lust ARE universal, hence why social workers use the "universalization" strategy during therapy for clients who feel alienated or alone with their particular problems or circumstances, to demonstrate that they are responding to their issues in normal and healthy ways seen in very similar cases.RiseOfTheWhiteWolf said:Yes, the will to procreate is not just my biggest flaw but also pretty much exclusive to me.Lacedaemonius said:It's in human nature to assume that everyone shares our own worst qualities; that what each of us deals with is a universal "Nature".
It isn't. It's probably just you.
(2 posts and I'm noticing you have a habit of making posts so ridiculous I can't help but be sarcastic in response. By all means keep following me around but don't expect anything more.)
If you truly do not feel envy, aggression, or lust at all, then you are an exception to what human beings are supposed to be; most likely suffering from a disability of some kind.
That, or self-proclaimed nonconformity status just sounds really cool... and it is, dude! Trust me, I know - I'm actually a stingray dressed up as a man!
You probably didn't come here looking for advice, but I'm giving it anyway because poking fun at you isn't really going to do anything to reduce the proportions of the nerds vs females shitstorm. I'd rather be constructive for once.Paragon Fury said:
Don't try and pretend that you've accepted such an obvious state of unhappiness by coming up with bro-science theories on internet forums to absolve yourself of any responsibility and wallow in the belief that it's all society/your brain's fault. Desirability is something you can control. Find things to do that boost your self-esteem, preferably something physical like a team sport or parkour or even going on a Pokemon Go walk. Meet as many new people as you can and make friends with them - when you're around these groups you'll be able to feel more confident. Eventually, you'll meet someone, and straight away you'll have something in common, and a group of friends who will put in a good word for you or back you to go for it. Build confidence from other people. Make some good lady friends who will give you the download on how to impress that one girl whenever she comes along.
I'm offering all this advice because I know the feeling. I once used to carry on about how no one would ever want me. Boy was I wrong.
I don't think letting feminists work there magic on young boys is one of the boons of modern society.2012 Wont Happen said:
I'll second this. I know I got frustrated with you earlier, but you really shouldn't sell yourself short paragon. Just go out and meet some people. Join clubs or groups. Eventually, start hanging out with some women. Don't think about romance. It removes the pressure. Just try and be friends with them. Get comfortable around women. Eventually one of your relationships may naturally grow into something more. You may surprise yourself.Shamanic Rhythm said:
Plenty of people have had crippling anxiety issues at some point in their lives. In high school I was so bad that I got nervous crossing strangers in the street. But, years later, I've got tons of friends and a healthy relationship. You just have to accept yourself for who you are, while also empathizing with other people. It's never "too late" to improve yourself.
So, are you saying it's preferable for boys to be taught to view women as sex objects? That is the topic that is under discussion. The reason that I bring up feminism at all is that the implication of the OP seems to be something like "hurr durr, feminists never considered this now did they" when in fact his point about the way culture impacts peoples' behavior is pretty much feminism 101.Gengisgame said:
Also, on a somewhat unrelated note I can't read "there magic" without thinking of the "where wolf? There wolf!" scene from Young Frankenstein.
Well, I hadn't planned on posting again, but....
Most of my friends are married.
But that aside, all you really need to know about objectification is that you don't like it. You don't like this idea that you will be rejected by women because they treat you based on your perceived value, yet you see nothing strange about doing it to women.
This is objectification. Or, at least, what you perceived as objectification. I do not believe it is the case, but maybe the overwhelming majority of my experience is just a fluke. Maybe outside my little sphere, women only like successful and attractive men.
But reality tells me otherwise.
The bottom line is, you think you've been devalued because of your appearance and station in life. one of the basic tents of society and morality is "I don't like this, maybe we shouldn't do it." Humans are a social critter and have developed morality along these lines (being punched hurts, maybe I shouldn't punch people). This actually does have an anthropological basis, on top of which it also happens to make sense.
Instead of defending and rationalising a behaviour that you yourself dislike and seemingly find hurtful...don't. I mean, I don't have any more specific advice. It hurts you, so don't hurt others.
"Biotruths" aside, think about what you're saying for a moment. Think about how you regard yourself. You don't like this notion that women will never sleep with you because of any number of a host of reasons, usually deriving from your sense of worth based on social perceptions I don't think are particularly true. According to your "anthropologists," most of my friends should have failed. They're socially awkward nerds often with low-paying, low prestige jobs and aren't conventionally attractive.Paragon Fury said:
Most of my friends are married.
But that aside, all you really need to know about objectification is that you don't like it. You don't like this idea that you will be rejected by women because they treat you based on your perceived value, yet you see nothing strange about doing it to women.
This is objectification. Or, at least, what you perceived as objectification. I do not believe it is the case, but maybe the overwhelming majority of my experience is just a fluke. Maybe outside my little sphere, women only like successful and attractive men.
But reality tells me otherwise.
The bottom line is, you think you've been devalued because of your appearance and station in life. one of the basic tents of society and morality is "I don't like this, maybe we shouldn't do it." Humans are a social critter and have developed morality along these lines (being punched hurts, maybe I shouldn't punch people). This actually does have an anthropological basis, on top of which it also happens to make sense.
Instead of defending and rationalising a behaviour that you yourself dislike and seemingly find hurtful...don't. I mean, I don't have any more specific advice. It hurts you, so don't hurt others.