men involved with domestic violence

[sumanoskae]

Here's what would be going through my head if I saw that specific situation, in sequence:

"Great, what did he do to piss her off like that? Sigh, couples and their squabbles."
"Oh wow she's really getting physical...she's going to push him over the limit at that rate, she's asking for it..."
"Holy crap what is she doing?! That man's self-restraint is incredible, but he's going to punch her fucking daylights out any moment!"
"Wait...what? WTF is going on here. Why is that guy taking so much abuse? What's wrong with him? Is he going to retaliate or not??"
After that I would walk away because he's in no immediate danger and something is clearly fishy about this situation, it makes no sense.

See, during that whole time I was worried more for the woman than the man because I was expecting a serious backlash that could possibly leave her an injury or two. But that never came, so I was forced to conclude that the man needed to get his shit sorted and learn to stand up for himself. You know, behave like a freaking man.

I can sense the metric shit-ton of hate coming my way - call me ignorant, call me insensitive, but I simply represent what people in that entire area would've been thinking. And for the most part it's correct.
Of course nobody helped, one or two people even laughed. The sight of a man getting abused like that by his female partner seems to defy all logic considering he's like 3 inches taller than her.

I am NOT saying that males aren't victims of domestic violence. Of course it's possible. It's just that the scenario shown in the video was a joke, completely unrealistic and unbelievable.

So... you're only criticism is that the situation should have been more convincing? It's important to show concern and be on your guard when you see people get physical; it might be nothing now, but it could escalate.

The point of the video is to illustrate that when the woman was being targeted, this concern was at the forefront of everyone's thoughts. When the man was at the receiving end, the assumption was that he either deserved it somehow or was in no danger.

First of all, you can't be sure that he isn't in danger just because he's bigger; the highest ranking member of my martial arts school is an elderly woman half my size, and she could take me the fuck apart.

Second of all, no matter how unlikely it is that he will get hurt, it's still possible, so you shouldn't just discount it.

Third of all, well yeah, it's just not very nice. Weather or not the victim of assault can defend themselves doesn't change the fact that you shouldn't go around hitting people or making fun of them for being hit; it's just a douche way to act. It's not tough love, it's just bullying.

Even if no one is in danger of serious injury, that's no excuse for being mean spirited.

 

[chikusho]

I agree. It's a huge problem that society doesn't take women seriously enough to perceive them as a threat.
But that's clearly still where the culture is at today.

 

[WeepingAngels]

I agree. It's a huge problem that society doesn't take women seriously enough to perceive them as a threat.
But that's clearly still where the culture is at today.

It's irritating how even a man getting attacked by a woman and nobody caring enough to step in is turned around to be an attack on women. Is it any wonder that violence against men is largely ignored?

 

[chikusho]

I agree. It's a huge problem that society doesn't take women seriously enough to perceive them as a threat.
But that's clearly still where the culture is at today.

It's irritating how even a man getting attacked by a woman and nobody caring enough to step in is turned around to be an attack on women. Is it any wonder that violence against men is largely ignored?

How is this an attack on women? I've never claimed any such thing.

A man being attacked by a woman and nobody caring is not because men are supposed to be tough. It's because they are supposed to be tougher than women. To be able to rise above what society dictates is the lowest bar of personal agency, aka a woman.
So when the woman is aggressive and the man submits that comes off as comical because that dynamic is not something that people expect to happen. Our perception of women here is still so low that a woman can't be seen as a threat in almost any way.

It's the same reason we laugh when a woman is sexually aggressive and rapey against a man in movies, because society as a whole just don't find that situation to be plausible. And that's because in our minds a woman shouldn't be able to do that, so we laugh it off. Just like it's funny when the mouse turns around and beats the crap out of a cat in a cartoon.

Violence IS violence. But using the above example as some kind of proof of male victimization is rather silly.

 

[WeepingAngels]

I agree. It's a huge problem that society doesn't take women seriously enough to perceive them as a threat.
But that's clearly still where the culture is at today.

It's irritating how even a man getting attacked by a woman and nobody caring enough to step in is turned around to be an attack on women. Is it any wonder that violence against men is largely ignored?

How is this an attack on women? I've never claimed any such thing.

A man being attacked by a woman and nobody caring is not because men are supposed to be tough. It's because they are supposed to be tougher than women. To be able to rise above what society dictates is the lowest bar of personal agency, aka a woman.
So when the woman is aggressive and the man submits that comes off as comical because that dynamic is not something that people expect to happen. Our perception of women here is still so low that a woman can't be seen as a threat in almost any way.

It's the same reason we laugh when a woman is sexually aggressive and rapey against a man in movies, because society as a whole just don't find that situation to be plausible. And that's because in our minds a woman shouldn't be able to do that, so we laugh it off. Just like it's funny when the mouse turns around and beats the crap out of a cat in a cartoon.

Violence IS violence. But using the above example as some kind of proof of male victimization is rather silly.

For you, an attack of a man by a woman and nobody stepping in to help the man is less about people not caring about violence against men and more about the status of women. Does a man have to die before he becomes a priority?

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I agree. It's a huge problem that society doesn't take women seriously enough to perceive them as a threat.
But that's clearly still where the culture is at today.

It's irritating how even a man getting attacked by a woman and nobody caring enough to step in is turned around to be an attack on women. Is it any wonder that violence against men is largely ignored?

How is this an attack on women? I've never claimed any such thing.

A man being attacked by a woman and nobody caring is not because men are supposed to be tough. It's because they are supposed to be tougher than women. To be able to rise above what society dictates is the lowest bar of personal agency, aka a woman.
So when the woman is aggressive and the man submits that comes off as comical because that dynamic is not something that people expect to happen. Our perception of women here is still so low that a woman can't be seen as a threat in almost any way.

It's the same reason we laugh when a woman is sexually aggressive and rapey against a man in movies, because society as a whole just don't find that situation to be plausible. And that's because in our minds a woman shouldn't be able to do that, so we laugh it off. Just like it's funny when the mouse turns around and beats the crap out of a cat in a cartoon.

Violence IS violence. But using the above example as some kind of proof of male victimization is rather silly.

For you, an attack of a man by a woman and nobody stepping in to help the man is less about people not caring about violence against men and more about the status of women. Does a man have to die before he becomes a priority?

It IS about the status of a woman because if you had a man beating the crap out of another man, people would be worried. Women are seen so low that people think it is comical, like if a baby were to be attacking him. Until societies view of women as equals becomes more widespread this will continue to be the case. when you look at who finally comes to the mans aid in this video, it is strong women who see the woman as an equal, not the men coming to help him because they do not perceive her as a threat.

Not even the male officer wanted to help him, but the women finally did.

Sadly, it also makes sense for the middle eastern woman to cheer for the abusive woman, as the culture of the middle east is also still one of the most abusive and deadly to women in the world and she said she thought "maybe she should fight back more herself". I found myself upset with the officer for his views on the man being beaten, but found myself more understanding to the middle eastern woman simply because of the situation for women in the middle east. I think the sympathy that one feels for the situation is also based on the issues facing women/men globally.

 

[Asita]

I agree. It's a huge problem that society doesn't take women seriously enough to perceive them as a threat.
But that's clearly still where the culture is at today.

It's irritating how even a man getting attacked by a woman and nobody caring enough to step in is turned around to be an attack on women. Is it any wonder that violence against men is largely ignored?

Well in all fairness there is a significant amount of overlap in this context. A man attacking another man is treated fairly seriously, a man hitting a woman is treated as far worse, a woman hitting a woman is...well it varies greatly on a case by case basis, really, and a woman hitting a man is generally laughed off because women are 'delicate flowers' and men are 'mountains of meat' who certainly must have 'done something to deserve it' anyways *eyeroll*. It's a situation that's scarily insulting to everyone involved, really, and the insults to one group can't really be divorced from those to the others.

It's the same reason we laugh when a woman is sexually aggressive and rapey against a man in movies, because society as a whole just don't find that situation to be plausible. And that's because in our minds a woman shouldn't be able to do that, so we laugh it off. Just like it's funny when the mouse turns around and beats the crap out of a cat in a cartoon.

Er...not really, no, at least not in the sense you seem to be implying. That particular 'gag' is more rooted in myths about male sexuality than anything else. Specifically, it perhaps draws the most from the ideas that A) A man always wants sex and will never turn down an offer for it (Especially not if the woman was attractive), B) That an erection is in and of itself proof of consent thereby making unwilling penetration a physical impossibility[footnote]See the old apologetics of "It's not rape if you enjoyed it" and "Your mouth says 'No' but your body says 'Yes'"[/footnote] and C) the simple fact that it flips our societal expectation of men as the aggressive and women as docile on its head, especially when sex is involved. Little girls tend to get the "you don't have to do anything if you don't want to" speech from their parents. Little boys tend to get the "when she says no, she means no" speech from theirs. Very rarely does either get the other speech, simply because men are expected to be the pursuers and women the pursued. See also the semi-frequent description of an aggressive woman being 'the man in the relationship'.

Really, physical ability seems to have very little to do with our treatment of female on male rape, and this is perhaps best seen in our treatment of our underage male victims. While we're a little less crass about it than we are about adult rape on similar grounds we do see a similar trend of dismissal in the rape of underage boys by women on the same grounds mentioned above, as was perhaps most poignantly put in the video linked earlier in this thread titled "Why Rape Is Sincerely Hilarious".

Spoiler: The video, in case anyone missed it

Or, alternatively, that one clip from South Park.

Spoiler: You all know the one

It's not based so much on "that could never happen" but "who the hell would complain".

 

[WeepingAngels]

I agree. It's a huge problem that society doesn't take women seriously enough to perceive them as a threat.
But that's clearly still where the culture is at today.

It's irritating how even a man getting attacked by a woman and nobody caring enough to step in is turned around to be an attack on women. Is it any wonder that violence against men is largely ignored?

How is this an attack on women? I've never claimed any such thing.

A man being attacked by a woman and nobody caring is not because men are supposed to be tough. It's because they are supposed to be tougher than women. To be able to rise above what society dictates is the lowest bar of personal agency, aka a woman.
So when the woman is aggressive and the man submits that comes off as comical because that dynamic is not something that people expect to happen. Our perception of women here is still so low that a woman can't be seen as a threat in almost any way.

It's the same reason we laugh when a woman is sexually aggressive and rapey against a man in movies, because society as a whole just don't find that situation to be plausible. And that's because in our minds a woman shouldn't be able to do that, so we laugh it off. Just like it's funny when the mouse turns around and beats the crap out of a cat in a cartoon.

Violence IS violence. But using the above example as some kind of proof of male victimization is rather silly.

For you, an attack of a man by a woman and nobody stepping in to help the man is less about people not caring about violence against men and more about the status of women. Does a man have to die before he becomes a priority?

It IS about the status of a woman because if you had a man beating the crap out of another man, people would be worried. Women are seen so low that people think it is comical, like if a baby were to be attacking him. Until societies views of women as equals becomes more widespread this will continue to be the case. when you look at who finally comes to the mans aid in this video, it is strong women who see the woman as an equal, not the men coming to help him because they do not perceive her as a threat.

Not even the male officer wanted to help him, but the women finally did.

I don't know what to say to this. You are taking the apathy of violence against men and calling it misogyny. I guess anything can be twisted to become misogyny.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I agree. It's a huge problem that society doesn't take women seriously enough to perceive them as a threat.
But that's clearly still where the culture is at today.

It's irritating how even a man getting attacked by a woman and nobody caring enough to step in is turned around to be an attack on women. Is it any wonder that violence against men is largely ignored?

How is this an attack on women? I've never claimed any such thing.

A man being attacked by a woman and nobody caring is not because men are supposed to be tough. It's because they are supposed to be tougher than women. To be able to rise above what society dictates is the lowest bar of personal agency, aka a woman.
So when the woman is aggressive and the man submits that comes off as comical because that dynamic is not something that people expect to happen. Our perception of women here is still so low that a woman can't be seen as a threat in almost any way.

It's the same reason we laugh when a woman is sexually aggressive and rapey against a man in movies, because society as a whole just don't find that situation to be plausible. And that's because in our minds a woman shouldn't be able to do that, so we laugh it off. Just like it's funny when the mouse turns around and beats the crap out of a cat in a cartoon.

Violence IS violence. But using the above example as some kind of proof of male victimization is rather silly.

For you, an attack of a man by a woman and nobody stepping in to help the man is less about people not caring about violence against men and more about the status of women. Does a man have to die before he becomes a priority?

It IS about the status of a woman because if you had a man beating the crap out of another man, people would be worried. Women are seen so low that people think it is comical, like if a baby were to be attacking him. Until societies views of women as equals becomes more widespread this will continue to be the case. when you look at who finally comes to the mans aid in this video, it is strong women who see the woman as an equal, not the men coming to help him because they do not perceive her as a threat.

Not even the male officer wanted to help him, but the women finally did.

Sadly, it also makes sense for the middle eastern woman to cheer for the abusive woman, as the culture of the middle east is also still one of the most abusive and deadly to women in the world and she said she thought "maybe she should fight back more herself". I found myself upset with the officer for his views on the man being beaten, but found myself more understanding to the middle eastern woman simply because of the situation for women in the middle east. I think the sympathy that one feels for the situation is also based on the issues facing women/men globally.

I don't know what to say to this. You are taking the apathy of violence against men and calling it misogyny. I guess anything can be twisted to become misogyny.

Did you listen to what the police officer said? What the Psychiatrist said? what the people said themselves who walked by and didn't help? " She wasn't a threat", " he wasn't in real danger". It is not a twisting of a situation, it IS the situation when you break down why this is happening. You cannot prevent something happening unless you understand the situation. The problem is you have to see the situation for what it is by listening to those who are telling you why they walked by. Denying what it is and trying to make it into a situation that " no one cares for men" when that is not the case isn't going to solve the problem here. If the man had been attacked by another man, a dog, bear, or mountain lion people would be rushing to help him. The only reason they do not help him with a woman is because they see her as too " weak" to hurt him, like a baby attacking him.

EDIT: I had edited my post at the end above to add additional content.

 

[PeterMerkin69]

I think it captures the essence of your argument perfectly.

It's so much caps and straw, man. I apologize for upsetting you so much that you had to resort to Internet yelling, though.

But actually my argument is that if you're unwilling to help yourself when you are very much capable of doing so then you shouldn't expect anyone else to help you. And then I shot down some lame excuses for why men can't or won't defend themselves because... everyone likes an easy target, I suppose.

 

[chikusho]

How is this an attack on women? I've never claimed any such thing.

A man being attacked by a woman and nobody caring is not because men are supposed to be tough. It's because they are supposed to be tougher than women. To be able to rise above what society dictates is the lowest bar of personal agency, aka a woman.
So when the woman is aggressive and the man submits that comes off as comical because that dynamic is not something that people expect to happen. Our perception of women here is still so low that a woman can't be seen as a threat in almost any way.

It's the same reason we laugh when a woman is sexually aggressive and rapey against a man in movies, because society as a whole just don't find that situation to be plausible. And that's because in our minds a woman shouldn't be able to do that, so we laugh it off. Just like it's funny when the mouse turns around and beats the crap out of a cat in a cartoon.

Violence IS violence. But using the above example as some kind of proof of male victimization is rather silly.

For you, an attack of a man by a woman and nobody stepping in to help the man is less about people not caring about violence against men and more about the status of women. Does a man have to die before he becomes a priority?

Wow, talk about talking out of context and misrepresenting my argument...

To me a woman attacking a man is assault.

On the other hand, an ad campaign about peoples reaction to female violence against men pin points the fact that women are still thought so little of for that not to be a concern. You know, as I just explained.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Snip

Norway does not need to depend on charities for these services because Norway funds government programs through state-owned sale of natural resources in the North Sea, so is not really comparable to the funding methods used in the United states.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Norway

If you wish to discuss Norway, I will not be of much assistance as I am not familiar with the issues facing Norwegians, and since the issues involved with domestic violence is regional, I can only discuss those facing the US and Native American reservations in the US.

In the US, the situation is so severe for women we have men trying to force their way into women's shelters to attack, kidnap or murder the women in them, so some of them are surrounded by electric fences, barbed wire and have armed guards to keep the women safe from attackers. Under no circumstances could we allow men into the facilities as there have already been instances where they have sent women family members in to try and coerce or trick them out of the shelters as it is, and women have already been kidnapped from the shelters. The situations of the women in shelters is often dire, and the prison system fails to protect victims in the US, so even putting the attackers in prison does not mean the victims are out of harms way, as they often carry out hits placed on victims from behind bars by hiring others to do it for them. Our shelters and safe houses are all we have to try and keep these women alive currently so it is not possible to add men to the existing shelters and would need provide them with their own separate facilities.

 

[generals3]

It IS about the status of a woman because if you had a man beating the crap out of another man, people would be worried. Women are seen so low that people think it is comical, like if a baby were to be attacking him. Until societies view of women as equals becomes more widespread this will continue to be the case.

Seen as babies? Now you're being ridiculous. But you want people to women as equals when it comes to physical strength. Well i guess we'll need to start genetic manipulation. People learn from their experience and in the vast majority of the cases women are physically weaker. And thus our brain, which loves to use its memory, will always keep that in mind. Trying to alter the very essence of how our brain function is an impossible task. However what we can do is stop the witch hunt against the evil wife beating man started by you know who. because that witch hunt has resulted in men being unable to defend themselves or to seek help from authorities (because yes, it is very likely he will be the suspect).

 

[chikusho]

nice

That exists too, but I guess you associated my analogue to another type of scene.
I was thinking specifically about unwelcome advances.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

It IS about the status of a woman because if you had a man beating the crap out of another man, people would be worried. Women are seen so low that people think it is comical, like if a baby were to be attacking him. Until societies view of women as equals becomes more widespread this will continue to be the case.

Seen as babies? Now you're being ridiculous. But you want people to women as equals when it comes to physical strength. Well i guess we'll need to start genetic manipulation. People learn from their experience and in the vast majority of the cases women are physically weaker. And thus our brain, which loves to use its memory, will always keep that in mind. Trying to alter the very essence of how our brain function is an impossible task. However what we can do is stop the witch hunt against the evil wife beating man started by you know who. because that witch hunt has resulted in men being unable to defend themselves or to seek help from authorities (because yes, it is very likely he will be the suspect).

I used " babies" as to make the understanding of the feeling that the bypassers have when they say " he was not in any danger" or " she was not a threat" Not that she was an actual baby, however, people would have been more concerned about a male teen attacking him than a woman, so that isn't that far off in comparison. I am not saying that people will ever see "me" for example, as physically equal to a male, I am petite and only weigh 115lbs or 52.16kg. When men think of women as " fiesty little dolls" when they get angry, and are not taking them seriously of course you are going to have an issue where they do not think the man is in danger. For example:
http://www.imnotobsessed.com/wp-content/uploads/INFphoto_948460.jpg
If she was hitting him, people would laugh like it was a baby attacking him because he is so much bigger than her, not understanding that she could actually hurt him. Even a dog attacking him would be seen as more of a threat than a woman.

No, I am not saying we need to be genetically altered silly. It should be considered that women are more likely to go for a weapon because they lack strength. If men think of the woman attacking as one with a weapon, they suddenly do not see her as weak at all. They should recognize that abuse and violence is bad no matter who is doing it and take the woman more seriously as a threat. If it takes mentally picturing the woman with a weapon to accomplish this in your mind in order to perceive her as a threat, maybe they should do so rather than overlook the violence.

What exactly are you suggesting, that men should defend themselves with violence? That is going backwards rather than forwards. We need to end the violence from both men and women, not add more to it. Instead of promoting violence, we should promote legal action against perpetrators of violence and offer more resources and protection to the victims of violence to help them get away from their attackers. This applies to both male and females.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

To put it bluntly, Patriarchy theory allows one to explain away the chaotic mess of external influences that create negative effects in their lives, without having to lay blame on the individuals creating a moral conflict of interests with the "victim". It simultaneously deflects any personal responsibility while nebulously creating opportunity for individualistic interpretations of oppression for anyone.

I'm sure you'll think I'm picking nits, but "Patriarchy theory" is just a theory. It doesn't do anything, and while it might allow for muddy thinking on account of being a muddy term, it is not a guarantee of it. Arguing that every application of it is "utterly ridiculous", even in informal discussion such as a message board, strikes me as the exact kind of lazy one-size-fits-all thinking you're purporting to oppose.

It just strikes me as needlessly provocative, given this is already a stupidly contentious and polarized discussion, in which most of the contributors have shown up armed to the teeth with confirmation bias.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

And no, I don't believe for a second anything you say to the contrary.

I guess that leaves no room for discussion. I will agree to disagree and part ways. Good Day.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

To put it bluntly, Patriarchy theory allows one to explain away the chaotic mess of external influences that create negative effects in their lives, without having to lay blame on the individuals creating a moral conflict of interests with the "victim". It simultaneously deflects any personal responsibility while nebulously creating opportunity for individualistic interpretations of oppression for anyone.

I'm sure you'll think I'm picking nits, but "Patriarchy theory" is just a theory. It doesn't do anything, and while it might allow for muddy thinking on account of being a muddy term, it is not a guarantee of it. Arguing that every application of it is "utterly ridiculous", even in informal discussion such as a message board, strikes me as the exact kind of lazy one-size-fits-all thinking you're purporting to oppose.

It just strikes me as needlessly provocative, given this is already a stupidly contentious and polarized discussion, in which most of the contributors have shown up armed to the teeth with confirmation bias.

Now I agree we may be armed to the teeth with confirmation bias, even so I was expecting to find a 24 hour men's hotline in the UK and was disappointed to see that I could not find one easily. I may have bias due to my experience with rape and abuse at the hands of men, but even I can see there should be a 24 hour hotline for men in need of help. There really is no excuse for that. I wish to actively help solve these problems but it is often hard to do when men keep screaming " womenz don't care about us!" when that simply is not true.

 

[chikusho]

I don't think you realize how little I care. Not because the Patriarchy benefits me in some way. Not because I know the Patriarchy doesn't exist in the ways in which it's been described by those who lay blame on it. And not because I believe people who fight against the nebulous monolithic idea only do so for personal gain. But because you can't demonstrate why it's a system I should challenge if it's been so successful for human existence and how any other system would be better given even a basic understanding of human psychology.

By that logic we might as well start developing more slavery.

 

[chikusho]

Now I agree we may be armed to the teeth with confirmation bias, even so I was expecting to find a 24 hour men's hotline in the UK and was disappointed to see that I could not find one easily. I may have bias due to my experience with rape and abuse at the hands of men, but even I can see there should be a 24 hour hotline for men in need of help. There really is no excuse for that. I wish to actively help solve these problems but it is often hard to do when men keep screaming " womenz don't care about us!" when that simply is not true.

Sorry to hear about your trauma but... It took google 0.4 seconds to find like, a dozen male specific hotlines in the UK.