Mens Rights Activists

[WhiteNachos]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but as the SPLC has explicitly pointed out, spreading bullshit stats is a cornerstone of MRA's.

Spreading bullsheet stats and misinformation is a cornerstone of these discussions full stop, no matter which "side" is involved, don't see why MRA would be singled out for special mention on that front. And I'd have said the exact same thing if you were saying it for feminists too, don't worry, I'm egalitarian in that regard.

I'm not into equivocation, sorry. One group has managed to reach the radar of the SPLC, the other is a bunch of idiots on Tumblr.

I'm especially not into reasonable requests for citations for a stats to be met with, "Everyone is full of shit!"

Nice appeal to authority you got there.

Really? How was my (now un-edited) post an fallacious appeal to authority? Please be REALLY sure to check what that actually means before you come roaring back with a response too, and keep in mind that there ARE accepted authorities in narrow fields.

Because you basically said "they said it's the case therefore it's true". You don't talk about their methodology, their evidence, and when challenged on it you say "you want to pit your authority against the SPLC".

For instance, it is not a fallacy to cite the work of Stephen Hawking as authoritative in regards to Black Hole entropy.

And saying "he said it so it must be true" would be appeal to authority.

Now I want you to try an exercise. Pretend that they're NOT seen as an authority, what evidence is there that they're right?

 

[WhiteNachos]

From what I gathered they aren't much different (if any different at all) from feminists, some of them have a pretty good point (women recieve more child custody, less jail time etc.) but has a lot of crazy offshoots with idiots saying idiotic things (again, like feminism). The main difference is that while current media tells you that (current)feminism is good and the fanatics don't represent the majority, it treats MRA like the second coming of mecha Stalin and Hitler and highlighting the fringe groups as the norm rather than the exception.

I would SO pay to see the second coming of Mecha Stalin and Mecha Hitler, because you know they're going to fight each other again.

This SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY at the time paradox speedway, it's mecha Hitler vs. mecha Stalin. He tried to conquer the world and purge it of Jews and he failed, now he's back with his metallic miniature mustache to beat the shit out his old rivals. From the ass kicking Axis it's MECHA HITLER!! And joining him in the ring: He's back from the dead and he's out for revenge, AGAIN!!! Denied the chance to take out his former conquering buddy, he's here and pissed. He's come to finish off Mecha-Hitler for himself and he's seeing red. The communist crusher himself, it's MECHA STALIN! Come now and get a free mecha FDR key chain complete with transforming wheelchair.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but as the SPLC has explicitly pointed out, spreading bullshit stats is a cornerstone of MRA's.

Spreading bullsheet stats and misinformation is a cornerstone of these discussions full stop, no matter which "side" is involved, don't see why MRA would be singled out for special mention on that front. And I'd have said the exact same thing if you were saying it for feminists too, don't worry, I'm egalitarian in that regard.

I'm not into equivocation, sorry. One group has managed to reach the radar of the SPLC, the other is a bunch of idiots on Tumblr.

I'm especially not into reasonable requests for citations for a stats to be met with, "Everyone is full of shit!"

Nice appeal to authority you got there.

Really? How was my (now un-edited) post an fallacious appeal to authority? Please be REALLY sure to check what that actually means before you come roaring back with a response too, and keep in mind that there ARE accepted authorities in narrow fields.

Because you basically said "they said it's the case therefore it's true". You don't talk about their methodology, their evidence, and when challenged on it you say "you want to pit your authority against the SPLC".

For instance, it is not a fallacy to cite the work of Stephen Hawking as authoritative in regards to Black Hole entropy.

And saying "he said it so it must be true" would be appeal to authority.

Now I want you to try an exercise. Pretend that they're NOT seen as an authority, what evidence is there that they're right?

Oh, you should be careful when you attribute a quote to someone. What I actually said was

Do the two seconds of work it takes to find out that's not a "page", it's part of their internal report. Beyond that if you really want to pit your credibility against the SPLC? lol... Go for it.

Credibility is earned, and the SPLC has earned it for DECADES, which is in part the root of their authority in naming hate groups, although by no means are they perfect. My point in reply was that if he wanted to directly question their credibility, that was a hell of a challenge he was up to, as in deed it is.

Now, do YOU have something substantial to offer in that regard, or did you just plan to shout "Fallacy" and I would swoon?

Do you have anything other than "they said it so it must be true"? They didn't even say all the MRA movement was a hate group

http://www.dailydot.com/news/reddit-mens-rights-hate-group-splc/?=hahasrsinyourface

 

[WhiteNachos]

They're just as annoying as feminists and just like feminists they make mountains out of molehills about everything.

And this is why I stopped being an mra. They seemed to have similar problems to (the non tumblr-brand) of feminism. They have a huge confirmation bias, or whatever it's called where they will look at a situation and their knee jerk reaction will be "this was caused by double standards against men" when that might not be the case. And they would also way overstate the case of how bad men have it. I don't remember them calling men oppressed but I do remember thinking they also had a victim complex thing going on (I hope those are the right words). So I stopped reading their stuff. But I do get annoyed when people act like MRAs only exist because they're men who don't like equality. I know from first hand experience that's not the case.

 

[WhiteNachos]

They're just as annoying as feminists and just like feminists they make mountains out of molehills about everything.

And this is why I stopped being an mra. They seemed to have similar problems to (the non tumblr-brand) of feminism. They have a huge confirmation bias, or whatever it's called where they will look at a situation and their knee jerk reaction will be "this was caused by double standards against men" when that might not be the case. And they would also way overstate the case of how bad men have it. I don't remember them calling men oppressed but I do remember thinking they also had a victim complex thing going on (I hope those are the right words). So I stopped reading their stuff. But I do get annoyed when people act like MRAs only exist because they're men who don't like equality. I know from first hand experience that's not the case.

Honest, non-taunting question here... did your leaving the MRA thing coincide with, by any chance, leaving your late teens, early twenties?

I honestly can't remember what age I was. I'm pretty sure I started reading their sites and stopped within my first couple years of college.

 

[Ryotknife]

If I'm wrong, it's never too late to answer those questions and prove me to be a judgmental asshole.

You have, in short, made a bunch of pretty extreme claims and then all you've done to support them, is make more. DO you have an actual view to espouse, a belief in something, or are you just generally throwing black people under the bus because you ASSUME other people are getting screwed?

this one?

fine.

My view is that there is a disparity in how funds (specifically the funds shown in the chart by lildevil) are allocated to poverty based on race. I realize that this is a very boring view, as it is based on math rather than emotions or bias.

Do i have a belief in something? nothing that is related to this topic other than I believe that the government is incompetent especially in regards to the more banal day to day responsibilities.

 

[Trippy Turtle]

I'd guess they are real.
There are some completely justifiable things for them to be activating about. But I'm sure a good portion are just in it to take the piss out of feminists or, similar to a good portion of feminists, cause a fuss.
I seriously cannot imagine being an activist for anything. Sounds like a lot of work.

 

[Ryotknife]

If I'm wrong, it's never too late to answer those questions and prove me to be a judgmental asshole.

You have, in short, made a bunch of pretty extreme claims and then all you've done to support them, is make more. DO you have an actual view to espouse, a belief in something, or are you just generally throwing black people under the bus because you ASSUME other people are getting screwed?

this one?

fine.

My view is that there is a disparity in how funds (specifically the funds shown in the chart by lildevil) are allocated to poverty based on race. I realize that this is a very boring view, as it is based on math rather than emotions or bias.

Do i have a belief in something? nothing that is related to this topic other than I believe that the government is incompetent especially in regards to the more banal day to day responsibilities.

You're re-stating your claim... again... instead of supporting it. Sorry, but I don't have any interest in this game. Seeya.

....you asked me to answer your question. Your question was do i have a view that i wish to espouse, which i did. You asked if i have a belief, which i also answered. If you dont want me to answer your questions THEN DONT ASK ME TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS.

As for support, the CHART IS MY SUPPORT (and its not even my chart!). you know, actual data. What more do you need to support an argument than data? Or should i support it with nothing but unfounded opinions like what you are doing?

you want more data? okay here is the poverty rate by race (which i included in my analysis)

https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr11-17.pdf

here are the demographics by race which i also factored in my analysis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States

okay, here is the actual math:

63.7% are white
12.2% are black
16.7% are latino
4.8% are asian
.9% are NA

Blacks, latinos, and NA have roughly twice the poverty of whites and asians.

63.7 for white
24.4 for black (they have twice the poverty rate than whites, so they get twice as much resources so 12.2 *2 = 24.4)
33.4 (16.7*2) for latino
4.8 for asian
1.8 (.9*2) for NA

63.7+24.4+33.4+4.8+1.8 = 128.1

63.7/128.1 = 49% white

24.4/128.1 = 19% black

33.4/128.1 = 26% latino

4.8/128.1 = 3.7% asian

1.8/128.1 = 1.4% NA

 

[elilupe]

-snip-
mistake post

 

[Zhukov]

Y'know what saddens me about MRAs?

There are actually ways that would-be activists could attempt to improve the lives of men. There are plenty of problems out there that disproportionately affect males.

- They could volunteer with suicide prevention groups.
- They could raise funds for prostate cancer research.
- They could lobby for reforms in the prison system.
- They could volunteer with groups who assist homeless people.

And that's just straight off the top of my head.

There are things they could do to assist men without detracting from anyone else.

And yet all they seem to know how to do is whine about feminists. On the internet no less.

Well done you mighty giants, you stalwart heroes of men.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Y'know what saddens me about MRAs?

There are actually ways that would-be activists could attempt to improve the lives of men. There are plenty of problems out there that disproportionately affect males.

- They could volunteer with suicide prevention groups.
- They could raise funds for prostate cancer research.
- They could lobby for reforms in the prison system.
- They could volunteer with groups who assist homeless people.

And that's just straight off the top of my head.

There are things they could do to assist men without detracting from anyone else.

And yet all they seem to know how to do is whine about feminists. On the internet no less.

Well done you mighty giants, you stalwart heroes of men.

There are so many areas lacking resources, it would be enormously beneficial for men to step up and volunteer to start and fund programs as well. They need them to step up and raise money and volunteer for programs and mentor those in need to help them build better lives for themselves. This is exactly what feminists have done, and people shouldn't expect them to do all of the work, instead we need more stepping up to help solve the problems. Volunteering for a mentoring program such as one like this:
http://johngrahamshelter.org/blog1/2012/03/05/mentors-to-aid-in-teaching-life-skills-to-homeless-clients/
Make a real difference in peoples lives, and are very much in demand.

 

[Thaluikhain]

And yes Feminists say they will get to our problems eventually, but why should we wait, when we could just advocate for our own problems now, solve them through our own power. I just don't see the logic there.

I've never seen any feminists say they will get to men's problems "eventually". Now, I've seen some of the worse Radfems say they aren't any, and I've seen lots of other feminists say that men's problems and women's problems are all based on the same sources, and that both will more or less get solved at the same time, but not that men's problems were separate and should be dealt with later.

Also black women and women in general being more likely to be raped is not a question of privilege, it's a question of exploitation. That being that because men tend to be stronger, not to mention being held to societal standards that demand respect for women, it's easier for women to be exploited. That's not a question of privilege it's a question of force and/or trust in the person who ends up committing the crime.

Hey? How is that not a privilege? If society is viewing men in a way that makes it less likely to be raped, that's a privilege.

Now, being physically stronger might not be (though IIRC, we don't see physically weaker men being raped to the same extent as women in general), though that would imply being able-bodied isn't either.

 

[Siege_TF]

Brings another dimension to the phrase 'will work for food', eh?
Vulnerable women are exploited for sex for most of the world, but that doesn't mean vulnerable men men are privileged to not be as exploited for sex, while vulnerable children of either gender are exploited for sex in some parts of the world, and vulnerable women are not privileged to be as exploited for manual labour.

Fuck that was wordy.

 

[WhiteNachos]

They're just as annoying as feminists and just like feminists they make mountains out of molehills about everything.

And this is why I stopped being an mra. They seemed to have similar problems to (the non tumblr-brand) of feminism. They have a huge confirmation bias, or whatever it's called where they will look at a situation and their knee jerk reaction will be "this was caused by double standards against men" when that might not be the case. And they would also way overstate the case of how bad men have it. I don't remember them calling men oppressed but I do remember thinking they also had a victim complex thing going on (I hope those are the right words). So I stopped reading their stuff. But I do get annoyed when people act like MRAs only exist because they're men who don't like equality. I know from first hand experience that's not the case.

Honest, non-taunting question here... did your leaving the MRA thing coincide with, by any chance, leaving your late teens, early twenties?

I honestly can't remember what age I was. I'm pretty sure I started reading their sites and stopped within my first couple years of college.

Thanks for the answer man, it fits roughly with what little anecdote I have. It seems that's the age (no later than 25 for most) than people dissociate from things like MRA or SJW etc... life takes over in a good or a bad way. Too much work, too much life to do more than passingly care, certainly not be an activist for something relatively narrow. Basically, it seems to be another expression of the usual late-teen angst and existential crisis.

Those who stick with it seem to have some other issues, or you have the genuine cases of guys who have been screwed, or at believe that they have and come to it late.

Ha I wish that was the case, I still spend way too much time dicking around on the internet and way too much time caring about feminists/gender wars, and edrama and other such things. It's become a problem, I sometimes look at tumblrinaction (a place to make fun of extreme tumblr feminists), when I'm bored and I get sucked back in again. I think it's my ADD. Part of me thinks I can change people's minds by arguing over the internet and I feel a little obligated to try if they're genuinely hateful or whatever.

It's a problem I need to work on. Perhaps I can find chrome extensions that block sites.

 

[Azure23]

Wow 11 pages, I bet there's some real heated discussion, I'm going to take a wild guess and say there's at least one argument that boils down to

"Mras suck because reasons, no feminists suck, because different reasons."

And I realized something, it's a stupid pointless debate. Almost anyone can call themself a feminist or an MRA or both (and I've seen a bunch of people who say they are both).

Really the only real requirement for being a feminist is not telling women belong in the kitchen jokes, and the only real requirement for being an MRA is well nothing.

Advocating equality isn't a requirement because I've seen feminists asking for unequal treatment (there's a few articles advocating we get rid of women's prisons and only women's prisons) and I'm sure if I looked I could find MRAs wanting something unequal too.

Those articles sound hilarious, can I get a link or something?

 

[WhiteNachos]

Wow 11 pages, I bet there's some real heated discussion, I'm going to take a wild guess and say there's at least one argument that boils down to

"Mras suck because reasons, no feminists suck, because different reasons."

And I realized something, it's a stupid pointless debate. Almost anyone can call themself a feminist or an MRA or both (and I've seen a bunch of people who say they are both).

Really the only real requirement for being a feminist is not telling women belong in the kitchen jokes, and the only real requirement for being an MRA is well nothing.

Advocating equality isn't a requirement because I've seen feminists asking for unequal treatment (there's a few articles advocating we get rid of women's prisons and only women's prisons) and I'm sure if I looked I could find MRAs wanting something unequal too.

Those articles sound hilarious, can I get a link or something?

I remember seeing some in UK websites but this is the first I found
http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/11/06/we-should-stop-putting-women-in-jail-for-anything/

Also on a different subject there's this:
http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Womens-groups-Cancel-law-charging-women-with-rape

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Brings another dimension to the phrase 'will work for food', eh?
Vulnerable women are exploited for sex for most of the world, but that doesn't mean vulnerable men men are privileged to not be as exploited for sex, while vulnerable children of either gender are exploited for sex in some parts of the world, and vulnerable women are not privileged to be as exploited for manual labour.

Fuck that was wordy.

While women are often exploited in different ways than men for manual labor, they are still exploited for manual labour as well:

Forced labour, human trafficking and slavery

Almost 21 million people are victims of forced labour ? 11.4 million women and girls and 9.5 million men and boys.
Almost 19 million victims are exploited by private individuals or enterprises and over 2 million by the state or rebel groups.
Of those exploited by individuals or enterprises, 4.5 million are victims of forced sexual exploitation.
Forced labour in the private economy generates US$ 150 billion in illegal profits per year.
Domestic work, agriculture, construction, manufacturing and entertainment are among the sectors most concerned.
Migrant workers and indigenous people are particularly vulnerable to forced labour.
http://www.ilo.org/global/topics/forced-labour/lang--en/index.htm

While 11.4 Million women and girls are taken into forced labour and slavery, it is only about 4.5 million who are forced into sex slavery, the rest of the women and girls are used in forced labour in the fields or domestic work. More females are still forced into into slavery than males at present.

 

[WhiteNachos]

Snip

I don't really see the connection between MRAs and what you linked to.

Read down the list.. and they are only naming a few of them in that report...

"MensActivism
Reddit: Mens Rights
A Voice for Men"
To name a few...

The only one of those I recognize are A Voice for Men, and even then it's being misogynistic is something I already knew. Guess MRAs are the other side of the coin of feminism.

No, because mainstream Feminism does not support Misandry,

How exactly are we defining mainstream feminism? Who are the true Scotsman of the mainstream?

while the MRM not only supports Misogyny, it was basically founded on Misogyny.

[citation needed]

Feminism is not the opposite of MRM.

Aside from the fact that feminism has been around a lot longer and thus has more accomplishments they are mirror images of each other but with a focus on different gender.

MRM exists to try to stop feminism, Feminism exists to try to gain equality for women.

How exactly are you defining equality? Because here in the US if you mean legal equality then the only issues left are the draft, the fact that some places don't let women walk around topless but they let men do and that's it. But neither of those things are huge issues in feminism. They're way more focused on gender roles and such. Hell if it was EXCLUSIVELY about equality than they wouldn't have invented the term manspreading. Nor would they have that laughable "ban bossy" campaign (I think that was from feminists, wasn't it?)

For example, Feminists were responsible for the domestic violence hotlines and services that both men and women utilize, along with many other resources that are available to both men and women that would not exist without feminists.

[citation needed]

 

[WhiteNachos]

Snip

That's a pretty damned massive claim with literally no evidence provided. I don't know how it is down stateside, but here in Canada it is, 100% without a doubt, not the case.

What is not the case? The SPLC already addressed Mainstream MRA's as being misogynist, and YES, feminists are the ones responsible for bringing us our domestic violence and abuse hotlines, they have volunteered countless hours and raised the funds to bring us these services or they would not exist today. In addition, feminists are the ones fighting for men and women to be able to like and do the same things without being ostracized and ridiculed for doing so, that actually benefits men moreso than women, as if women wear mans pants they are less likely to be made fun of than a man in in a woman's dress.

So I am not sure what you are attempting to claim isn't true.

http://time.com/134152/the-toxic-appeal-of-the-mens-rights-movement/

Wow that's not a biased article at all. /sarcasm.

Seriously that's your fucking source? A word of advice if you want to know what MRAs believe ASK SOME FUCKING MRAS, not fucking feminists. This goes with EVERY group. The article cited one thing some MRAs did and then just gave us tons of assurances that most MRAs are misogynists that we had to jsut take his word for. Then admitted there were legit problems facing men but men should man up and deal with them because they have so much privilege (which is a great way of perpetuating gender roles BTW).

And if that's all it takes to convince you:

"Most feminists are awful people misandric people, they talk in fallacies have no evidence to back up most of their claims and they generally suck. Here's a single instance of feminists doing something questionable to support my claim that they're all rotten.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Womens-groups-Cancel-law-charging-women-with-rape
"

I don't actually believe that but you get my point.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Snip

That's a pretty damned massive claim with literally no evidence provided. I don't know how it is down stateside, but here in Canada it is, 100% without a doubt, not the case.

What is not the case? The SPLC already addressed Mainstream MRA's as being misogynist, and YES, feminists are the ones responsible for bringing us our domestic violence and abuse hotlines, they have volunteered countless hours and raised the funds to bring us these services or they would not exist today. In addition, feminists are the ones fighting for men and women to be able to like and do the same things without being ostracized and ridiculed for doing so, that actually benefits men moreso than women, as if women wear mans pants they are less likely to be made fun of than a man in in a woman's dress.

So I am not sure what you are attempting to claim isn't true.

http://time.com/134152/the-toxic-appeal-of-the-mens-rights-movement/

Wow that's not a biased article at all. /sarcasm.

Seriously that's your fucking source? A word of advice if you want to know what MRAs believe ASK SOME FUCKING MRAS, not fucking feminists. This goes with EVERY group. The article cited one thing some MRAs did and then just gave us tons of assurances that most MRAs are misogynists that we had to jsut take his word for. Then admitted there were legit problems facing men but men should man up and deal with them because they have so much privilege (which is a great way of perpetuating gender roles BTW).

And if that's all it takes to convince you:

"Most feminists are awful people misandric people, they talk in fallacies have no evidence to back up most of their claims and they generally suck. Here's a single instance of feminists doing something questionable to support my claim that they're all rotten.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Womens-groups-Cancel-law-charging-women-with-rape
"

I don't actually believe that but you get my point.

I have spoken to plenty of MRA's that is why the point stands. I agree with the SPLC, that the VAST MAJORITY are completely anti feminist and spread misinformation against women.

"The so-called ?manosphere? is peopled with hundreds of websites, blogs and forums dedicated to savaging feminists in particular and women, very typically American women, in general. Although some of the sites make an attempt at civility and try to back their arguments with facts, they are almost all thick with misogynistic attacks that can be astounding for the guttural hatred they express."


http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites
I do not consider the SPLC a " biased" source, since they are only really biased against hate groups. Showing there are exceptions and claiming " these few guys over here are not like that" does not change the actions of the majority.