Metal Gear Solid and rape

[endtherapture]

So I just finished my first run through of Ground Zeroes. Good game? Yes, but it was too short but bodes well for MGS5 in my opinion in gameplay terms. SPOILERS FOR GROUND ZEROES WILL BE BELOW.

Seeing from the trailers of The Phantom Pain, the game is going for an incredibly realistic and dark tone. Ground Zeroes marked a shift in the somewhat Zany and crazy Peace Walker to a hyper-realistic, strikingly dark world of MGS5. This is a game about extranational Guantanamo Bay-like camp, with lots of torture and child soldiers thrown in too, and it's speculated the game where Big Boss goes from hero to villain. Metal Gear Solid has always had some heavy hitting themes, whether it's tackling soldiers or the control of information or the nature of genes, but it's always been a bit weird too with lots of weird Japaense stuff like big walking robots.

In Ground Zeroes you're sent into what is effectively Guantanamo Bay for two captured prisoners, Paz and Chico. Paz is a double agent for a secret society and Chico is a child soldier who has a crush on her. Paz is meant to be 17 but she's actually 23, Chico is about 15 I think and he has a crush on her. Either way Big Boss has to go and get them out of the super realistic videogame version of Guantanamo bay.

The controversy appears to be sections of people getting offended over collectible tapes in the game portraying Chico being forced to rape Caz by the games antagonist, Skullface. They're pretty harrowing considering it's basically a child unwillingly being forced to rape another child with a bunch of men watching. Also later in the game Paz gets a bomb cut out of her, and then there's a second bomb and it is implied to be somewhere else (maybe her vagina, we don't know fully).

People are offended because it is Kojima going too far over this, objectifying women , rape is bad etc. I don't quite understand this because it was the intention for us to be disgusting and for us to hate the perpetrators of the torture, given that they could be the villains for a big part of The Phantom Pain. The vagina bomb is pretty gross too but similar kind of thing, it's meant to shock given the new darker tone of the MGS5 project.

I think tone is important and whilst what happened is very dark, it's pretty similar in tone to what the rest of MGSV appears to be - child soldiers, lost limbs, crippling people with bolts through ankles, physical and psychological torture, violence, war and nukes.

What did you think? Were you offended? Can you see past the offence and see the point that Kojima is making or the emotions you want to send? Or is it just too "problematic" for you?

 

[Maximum Bert]

Havent played the demo so dont really have any opinion on it in that game. From what you describe it sounds fine and to be honest it sounds like the sort of horrific thing that could and almost certainly does happen.

As for rape in general in games I have no problems with it or indeed anything else if I dont like certain things about a game I wont buy it or if its a dev and they keep making things I dont like I will likely not buy their future products. I dont think anything should be taboo and can be handled in any way they want.

A game having rape in is not going to sway my opinion on it one way or the other, if its a game centred around the glorification of rape odds are I wont get it unless it had amazing gameplay or something which is unlikely.

 

[Tohuvabohu]

People are offended because it is Kojima going too far over this, objectifying women , rape is bad etc. I don't quite understand this because it was the intention for us to be disgusting and for us to hate the perpetrators of the torture, given that they could be the villains for a big part of The Phantom Pain. The vagina bomb is pretty gross too but similar kind of thing, it's meant to shock given the new darker tone of the MGS5 project.

I think tone is important and whilst what happened is very dark, it's pretty similar in tone to what the rest of MGSV appears to be - child soldiers, lost limbs, crippling people with bolts through ankles, physical and psychological torture, violence, war and nukes.

What did you think? Were you offended? Can you see past the offence and see the point that Kojima is making or the emotions you want to send? Or is it just too "problematic" for you?

From what I've seen others say, what makes this so "problematic" is Kojima's blunt-force trauma method of writing and direction, and that he's not capable of "handling such a sensitive issue with the care it needs", and instead uses it as a cheap shock and reaching for a low-hanging fruit in order to make his game darker and grittier (Such as the vagina-bomb)

While others are certainly free to make those complaints, the way I see it, I see what Kojima was doing and I'm fine with what was shown, really. And I think it was effective. When it comes to the torture and horrors endured by Chico and Paz by Skullface, that kind of thing isn't that far removed from reality itself.
Sexual violence in war-time and inflicted on PoWs is a very real and pervasive thing throughout pretty much all of history and it still happens. To take offense with Ground Zeroes' inclusion of such thing is to turn a blind-eye on the realities of it. Just because it's a game doesn't mean it can't do it, and while there is a debate to be had on how Ground Zeroes depicted it, I am glad to see a game tread into very real and very dark territories like that.

Like you said, given the direction that MGS is going - Specifically showing Big Boss' descent into villainy, it was the right time for it.

Next there's the vagina bomb. Excessive? Unnecessary? Cheap shock? Perhaps. But again, the way I see it, I can totally see Skullface doing this for those exact reasons. Because it's such an excessively unnecessary shock. Right after Snake sees the massacre and destruction of his base, Paz dies in a horrific explosion right in front of everyone's eyes and results with Snake being maimed and put into a coma. The entire finale of the game seemed like an elaborate shock-show specifically made to harm Big Boss in every way possible, physically, emotionally, and mentally.

That's just the way I feel about it. A lot of things shown to us were really fucked up, and I'm fine with that.

 

[endtherapture]

Next there's the vagina bomb. Excessive? Unnecessary? Cheap shock? Perhaps. But again, the way I see it, I can totally see Skullface doing this for those exact reasons. Because it's such an excessively unnecessary shock. Right after Snake sees the massacre and destruction of his base, Paz dies in a horrific explosion right in front of everyone's eyes and results with Snake being maimed and put into a coma. The entire finale of the game seemed like an elaborate shock-show specifically made to harm Big Boss in every way possible, physically, emotionally, and mentally.

That's just the way I feel about it. A lot of things shown to us were really fucked up, and I'm fine with that.

Really agree with you on this point. In MGS games we are encouraged to get into the mind of the player character. MGS2 for example implies that all of MGS1 was simulation of what actually happened, and that Raiden is just a representation of US the player, before he rejects our control at the end of the game. Cognitive dissonance is it? Kojima isn't an idiot and that whole montage at the end of GZs culminating in the vagina bomb has got to be something clever by him - something like us getting angry and hungry for revenge, getting us into the mindset of Venom Snake in TPP. If You got angry at the rape and torture scenes in GZs, then GOOD, because you'll be in the same mindset as Big Boss is. If not and you got offended rather than getting angry, then MGS5 might not be the game for you.

 

[go-10]

well torture camps have been show to partake in this practice, it's a sad crude reality, where kids are forced to essentially rape each other for the entertainment of adults. I read once that it happens in Africa and other countries with similar problems. While I do find this to be gross and just horrible it still is a reality and MGS games while still being games do tend to showcase/critizice these type of actions

Big Boss, I don't think he becomes straight up evil, more that he believes no government can be trusted since they all treat soldiers the same way, as tools for war, but as time goes by and their usefulness drops they become dispensable. Big Boss grows tired of this unfair treatment and seeks to create a utopia for people the world casted out, hence he creates Outer Heaven. But he also knows that to create a utopia he needs power, he needs to enter the nuclear missile treaty where countries don't blow each other up because nukes are pointed at each other, so the first one to fire would essentially sign their own death penalty and most likely the end of humanity, hence why he seeks/creates Metal Gear and the events of NES MG take place

as for the other bomb... I don't really remember too well since it's been months, but I seem to recall in one of Paz's tapes that she mentions a woman who is rumored to be a lesbian started to fondle her "back area" and she felt weird because despite not being a lesbian or into backdoor entry she enjoyed it a lot apparently... or enough to blow her cover due to pleasure anyways.
So I sort of figured the other bomb was up her bum

 

[crypticracer]

The problem seems to be that the demo was cut out of the main game. So it just kind of ends there, that's what your left with. While we don't know for sure how the full game will handle it, forced sexualization is a huge part of the whole child soldier phenomenon.

I don't think it would have been as problematic if it was still the opening to the full game. But I guess we will see how Kojima handled that whole thing when it's released.

 

[Seishisha]

Maybe i am alone on this point but considering law of averages probably not.

Having heard the tapes back when this was first doing the rounds i was never fully convinced any kind of rape occured, the audio was very ambigous. Somthing was certainly happening but what exactly was unclear, from what i remember you hear somthing that sounds like ripping to tearing which let's be honest probably was clothes. A distinctive slapping sound which could be punching, kicking some other form of violent abuse possibly even whipping or flogging. There is some dialogue with questions along the lines of "have you ever seen anything like this before" or "its the first time you've seen this" Which again isnt clear enough, the dialogue could be refering to the beaten and injured character or somthing else. I seem to recall a distinctive "dont touch me" kind of line towards to the end which could be because of what one character was forced todo but again who was forced and what occured is pretty unclear.

I admit it's been a while since i heard the tapes so im probably forgetting some details, but i do remember my gut reaction at the time of being very uncertain about what actualy happend.

Regardless of the actual event in game, i actualy think it is important to have stories about these horrible subjects how they are handled is to an extent less important than the content itself. I can't realy quantify my opinion fully but to sum it up, people should not be judged for telling a certain type of story, the way in which the story is told should be the focus of the critique.

 

[DEAD34345]

I'm pretty blasé about this kind of thing. It was disgusting and horrifying to play through of course, but it was supposed to be, that was the point. I wasn't offended in any way, and I'd say for me it just added to the shocking and depressing tone which it was going for.

That said, people are offended by different things, and I can totally understand those who didn't like it, or didn't want to experience that in a video game they were playing for fun. I just don't see that as a problem. If you don't like that sort of thing, the obvious solution seems to be to not play the game. The one change I really would support though is the introduction of warnings or whatever at the beginning of games like these, or anything with potentially shocking content. That way everyone gets to play (or watch or read) whatever they want, and no-one is caught out and unnecessarily distressed by something they didn't want to experience.

The people who are offended by the fictional rape's mere existence on the other hand are just being silly, and I don't think they have a coherent argument to make. It's one thing to dislike something, but it's another thing entirely to demand that no-one else can like it.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Issue with Kojimas games are they deal with serious issues and then have jokey stuff. Its the tone different that is stupid and all the MGS games suck with tone choices.

 

[endtherapture]

I'm pretty blasé about this kind of thing. It was disgusting and horrifying to play through of course, but it was supposed to be, that was the point. I wasn't offended in any way, and I'd say for me it just added to the shocking and depressing tone which it was going for.

That said, people are offended by different things, and I can totally understand those who didn't like it, or didn't want to experience that in a video game they were playing for fun. I just don't see that as a problem. If you don't like that sort of thing, the obvious solution seems to be to not play the game. The one change I really would support though is the introduction of warnings or whatever at the beginning of games like these, or anything with potentially shocking content. That way everyone gets to play (or watch or read) whatever they want, and no-one is caught out and unnecessarily distressed by something they didn't want to experience.

The people who are offended by the fictional rape's mere existence on the other hand are just being silly, and I don't think they have a coherent argument to make. It's one thing to dislike something, but it's another thing entirely to demand that no-one else can like it.

That's what ESRB ratings are for Stuff like that is on the back of the game box but we've become sort of used to seeing those ratings everywhere so many people don't take notice to it.

 

[NiPah]

Issue with Kojimas games are they deal with serious issues and then have jokey stuff. Its the tone different that is stupid and all the MGS games suck with tone choices.

I'd beg to differ, personally I find the little bouts of absurdity in MGS to be some of the most fun and memorable moments of the game. Look at a game like Splinter Cell, not much jokey stuff and has a rigid tone, but it'll be a cold day in hell when it tackles issues this deep.

 

[BarryMcCociner]

People who got upset by this probably didn't recognize the Guantanamo Bay allegory or aren't truly aware of how awful things actually were there. If you ask me, compared to some the stories that came out of Guantanamo Bay, Chico got off lightly.

Plus, if you're getting offended by the sexual violence in a game that has sexual violence written on the fucking cover as a way of dissuading people who are offended by sexual violence from purchasing it you honestly shouldn't be legally allowed to make your own purchasing decisions.

I mean come on, the ESRB warnings are not part of the cover art, they're there for you! It's a bit like that kid in school who'd get woodchips in his eye during Woodwork after being explicitly told 10 times to wear safety goggles, after a certain point you have to stop taking that kids complaints seriously.

 

[endtherapture]

Issue with Kojimas games are they deal with serious issues and then have jokey stuff. Its the tone different that is stupid and all the MGS games suck with tone choices.

Some would say the ridiculous stuff can make the dark stuff feel really deep. I mean MGS2 has vampire men, people with roller skates on, and Raiden slipping on bird poo and running around naked. Doesn't mean it can't make a serious statement on the control of information in a modern day society.

 

[someguy1231]

I don't think any subject should be "off-limits" to video games. As for how it was handled, I've played Ground Zeroes, and I never felt the game was being gratuitous or insensitive or anything like that. Then again, I'm a very thick-skinned person who's very hard to offend.

 

[Areloch]

Issue with Kojimas games are they deal with serious issues and then have jokey stuff. Its the tone different that is stupid and all the MGS games suck with tone choices.

I'd beg to differ, personally I find the little bouts of absurdity in MGS to be some of the most fun and memorable moments of the game. Look at a game like Splinter Cell, not much jokey stuff and has a rigid tone, but it'll be a cold day in hell when it tackles issues this deep.

This is a hangup western audiences have with Japanese media. If you look at anime, manga, games, etc from Japan, it's a pretty consistent thing to have sudden breaks from super heavy stuff with small bouts of humor. That's not a 'Kojima is awful at writing' thing, and more a cultural difference in how to handle tone in stories.

Western producers actually do this too, just not as often, largely favoring the singular tone approach.

I'd also point out that Ground Zeroes did not have the traditional tonal break. It was stark throughout.

On topic: The entire bloody point was that Non-tonamo Bay was a horrifying place. It's pretty annoying to me that people were offended that awful things happen in a torture camp based on real life things that happen in torture camps.

Maybe because it happened to a female character? People that pay attention would note that everyone in that camp has been tortured. Fun fact: Look at any of the prisoners feet and it looks like they have a metal bar put through their ankle, likely to make it impossible for them to flee.

 

[Jaegerbombastic]

A common complaint I've heard against the rape scene is that MGS is too "silly" to cover it. It is, after, all, the same series that has Fat Man and a Monkey Island crossover. There's no way Kojima could treat something like rape in war in a serious manner!

Of course this is forgetting that this isn't the first time the series has touched on rape and sexual violence. First you have Psycho Mantis using mind control on Meryl to force herself onto Snake, which is not played for laughs or arousal. Its also all but stated that Colonel Volgin is a sexual sadist and that what he did to Eva (and possibly Raikov) wasn't consensual. Ground Zeroes is more up front about what happened, but the point is that this isn't Kojima bungling into uncharted writing territory.

Not to mention all the times that MGS has covered torture, nuclear war, child soldiers, realpolitik, PTSD, the military industrial complex, etc. etc. There are definitely a lot of intentionally goofy moments in MGS, but the series overall is a very dark and somber one. In my opinion its a big deconstruction of action/spy movies/videogames/anime/etc. Its showing what happens when you take all the characters and tropes of those genres and stick them in the "real" world.

 

[endtherapture]

Issue with Kojimas games are they deal with serious issues and then have jokey stuff. Its the tone different that is stupid and all the MGS games suck with tone choices.

I'd beg to differ, personally I find the little bouts of absurdity in MGS to be some of the most fun and memorable moments of the game. Look at a game like Splinter Cell, not much jokey stuff and has a rigid tone, but it'll be a cold day in hell when it tackles issues this deep.

This is a hangup western audiences have with Japanese media. If you look at anime, manga, games, etc from Japan, it's a pretty consistent thing to have sudden breaks from super heavy stuff with small bouts of humor. That's not a 'Kojima is awful at writing' thing, and more a cultural difference in how to handle tone in stories.

Western producers actually do this too, just not as often, largely favoring the singular tone approach.

I'd also point out that Ground Zeroes did not have the traditional tonal break. It was stark throughout.

On topic: The entire bloody point was that Non-tonamo Bay was a horrifying place. It's pretty annoying to me that people were offended that awful things happen in a torture camp based on real life things that happen in torture camps.

Maybe because it happened to a female character? People that pay attention would note that everyone in that camp has been tortured. Fun fact: Look at any of the prisoners feet and it looks like they have a metal bar put through their ankle, likely to make it impossible for them to flee.

Totally get that. Been recently getting into anime and even watching entry level stuff like Fullmetal Alchemist and the tone goes from almost feeling like a Pokemon anime and being very funny and cutesy to having really dark and deep stuff like dead zombie mothers and dark magical experiments. The tone shifts dramatically and you have to get used to it but the cute stuff doesn't invalidate the mature stuff or vice versa.

But yes as you said, GZ is dark throughout. TPP probably will be too. It's jarring when you compare it to Peace Walker which was a bit more fun, but it doesn't have the traditional in-game shift between tones like in some of the games going from brutal headshots to slapstick comedy.

Yeah Chico and the other prisoners have steel bolts put through their heels so they're unable to walk. He's forced to have sex with Paz and also has a headphone jack in his chest for some reason. He goes through just as much torture as Paz but only her torture is "problematic" because she's a female character. It' pretty hypocritical when you see some journalists discussing it (one lady from IGN comes to mind). Torture is torture whoever it happens to.

 

[Areloch]

Issue with Kojimas games are they deal with serious issues and then have jokey stuff. Its the tone different that is stupid and all the MGS games suck with tone choices.

I'd beg to differ, personally I find the little bouts of absurdity in MGS to be some of the most fun and memorable moments of the game. Look at a game like Splinter Cell, not much jokey stuff and has a rigid tone, but it'll be a cold day in hell when it tackles issues this deep.

This is a hangup western audiences have with Japanese media. If you look at anime, manga, games, etc from Japan, it's a pretty consistent thing to have sudden breaks from super heavy stuff with small bouts of humor. That's not a 'Kojima is awful at writing' thing, and more a cultural difference in how to handle tone in stories.

Western producers actually do this too, just not as often, largely favoring the singular tone approach.

I'd also point out that Ground Zeroes did not have the traditional tonal break. It was stark throughout.

On topic: The entire bloody point was that Non-tonamo Bay was a horrifying place. It's pretty annoying to me that people were offended that awful things happen in a torture camp based on real life things that happen in torture camps.

Maybe because it happened to a female character? People that pay attention would note that everyone in that camp has been tortured. Fun fact: Look at any of the prisoners feet and it looks like they have a metal bar put through their ankle, likely to make it impossible for them to flee.

Totally get that. Been recently getting into anime and even watching entry level stuff like Fullmetal Alchemist and the tone goes from almost feeling like a Pokemon anime and being very funny and cutesy to having really dark and deep stuff like dead zombie mothers and dark magical experiments. The tone shifts dramatically and you have to get used to it but the cute stuff doesn't invalidate the mature stuff or vice versa.

But yes as you said, GZ is dark throughout. TPP probably will be too. It's jarring when you compare it to Peace Walker which was a bit more fun, but it doesn't have the traditional in-game shift between tones like in some of the games going from brutal headshots to slapstick comedy.

Yeah Chico and the other prisoners have steel bolts put through their heels so they're unable to walk. He's forced to have sex with Paz and also has a headphone jack in his chest for some reason. He goes through just as much torture as Paz but only her torture is "problematic" because she's a female character. It' pretty hypocritical when you see some journalists discussing it (one lady from IGN comes to mind). Torture is torture whoever it happens to.

Yeah, FMA is a really good example of it. It can go from serious discussion about moral/ethical implications of human experimentation and killing them as raw resources to 'El Oh El Prince Ling is so silly!' jokey comedy in a minute or less.

Also, Ground Zeroes gets further layers of tonal complications if you spend your time sneaking around listening to soldiers. You have soldiers sounding legitimately sad that one of them has to go off to execute a prisoner. "Hey, tell him it's nothing personal, ok?" "Yeah, I can tell him", to talk about extortion and holding families hostage so they'll comply.

Almost no one in Ground Zeroes is played as a cartoon villian. Most of the soldiers there probably legitimately believe they have to do awful things for the betterment and safety of their country - which is very similar to what real life people will say if you ask them if they worked in those kinds of conditions.

Say what you will about Kojima and his writing, but I wouldn't call it 'haphazard' or 'shallow'.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I never bothered looking for or listening to the tapes, but in regards to the "vadge bomb"... It was simply overkill. That terribly explict scene of Paz getting opened up, stretched open, with hands reaching down her abdomen, intestines spilling out, and her regaining consciousness during the procedure and screaming in agony, all in order to remove the bomb... That was more than enough. If they wanted her to die, they should've let it happen during the bomb removal. Don't makes us sit through all that just to go 'psych, there was another one '.

Beyond being cruel, it's just lazy. It'd be like watching Alien, and right at the end when Ripley defeats the Alien the filmmakers decide there's actually another Alien with her on the shuttle.

 

[endtherapture]

I never bothered looking for or listening to the tapes, but in regards to the "vadge bomb"... It was simply overkill. That terribly explict scene of Paz getting opened up, stretched open, with hands reaching down her abdomen, intestines spilling out, and her regaining consciousness during the procedure and screaming in agony, all in order to remove the bomb... That was more than enough. If they wanted her to die, they should've let it happen during the bomb removal. Don't makes us sit through all that just to go 'psych, there was another one '.

Beyond being cruel, it's just lazy. It'd be like watching Alien, and right at the end when Ripley defeats the Alien the filmmakers decide there's actually another Alien with her on the shuttle.

We don't know a lot about Skullface and XOF so far, but I think it really establishes them as people not to mess with. As Kaz says "They've been playing us like a fiddle", and they did. The unexpected second bomb after the complete trauma of the first is just something that shows us that.

I think it was important in the terms of the overall story for there to be a second bomb, because after the first bomb extraction, everything was okay and we were heading back to MSF just fine. Then all the shit went down and the base gets destroyed. At the lowest moment we get dragged even lower by the second bomb. It's a very important way, for me, to end Paz's story, because she throws herself out of the helicopter. Skullface takes her womanhood from her, her hair, her agency, and violates her in the worst way. It's important for Paz to throw herself out of the helicopter at the end, at Big Boss's lowest point, as it redeems herin my eyes at least. She was a double agent and she betrays, but she takes back her agency in the final moment of her life to give Big Boss, Kaz and Chico a chance for revenge against XOF, Cypher and Skullface.

It's impossible to see if this will be important in MGS5, but if you look at Paz as a character and not just a plot device, it is important, both to give us insight into Skullface and to close of Paz's arc properly, with one last act of defiance that has so far defined her character. I'm pretty sure the second bomb will also cut out a lot of naivety from Snake's character as he completes his journey into becoming Big Boss.