Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes and Rape

[The Crispy Tiger]

Well I'm bothered by it personally because by making it something that isn't absolutely central to the plot, what you're essentially just putting something extremely disturbing and sickening and that's a major socitial problem into the game entirely gratuitously. I mean the poster before me makes a comment about exploring dark topics like this, but from where i'm sitting it doesn't really feel like the topic is actually really explored in the game (although if i'm wrong there, someone please correct me) but mote like it's just a thing that happens that's there jst to get you to hate the villain more or perhaps just for the shock value which isn't cool.

THAT'S WHAT I SAID! BUT APPARENTLY THAT'S HOW METAL GEAR TELLS A STORY. God, sometimes I don't get you people...

 

[The Crispy Tiger]

Well, to me, it just seems that some peoples level of sensitivity and tolerance toward dark topics is lower than others. That's the extent of it. Rape and pedophilia are two topics most people prefer to forget about, to hide it in the dark shadows and not be exposed to it in media. I completely understand that, just as I would understand someone not wanting to play military shooters because the killing is too graphic, everyone has different thresholds. However some people, such as myself, do not share those limits. I am perfectly fine with exploring those topics, and other incredibly dark subjects, in media from a variety of perspectives. So it's far less of an issue to me. On the contrary, I'd like to see more creators have the courage to explore such themes and insert them into their fiction.

I'd say this, once again, falls into the realm of subjectivity.

So, how do you feel about it storywise? Did you feel like it was necessary? Badly done? Does it change your view on Paz and/or Chico? ETC.

 

[Kopikatsu]

War is hell and soldiers will always be exploited and abused by those in charge to suit their own ends. This has been a consistent theme throughout the entire Metal Gear series. This one just took it to it's terrible, but completely real, extreme. This happens in the game because this happens every day. You don't like it, blame the world, not Kojima. He didn't just make it up.

Could it have been executed better? Perhaps. I think considering the extreme brevity of Ground Zeroes he probably couldn't figure out a way to put it in the narrative naturally. It happens.

I'm not offended by the material just didn't like the placement. ALSO, it's hard to take this game seriously with characters like Skull Face, Quiet, and Code Talker. But I applaud anything that attempts to talk about hard to talk about subjects. But that's just me.

What's wrong with code names?

MGS has always been heavy on them (Sniper/Crying Wolf, Psycho/Screaming Mantis, EVA, Ocelot/ADAM, Boss, BB, Snake, Cobra Unit, etc); but I don't see how it takes away from the story.

 

[aba1]

I guess being a artist I might be biased but I am a strong believer in no censorship. I don't think any art piece should have to change or be altered so that people will be more comfortable with it. The way I see it is nothing is off the table anything should be ok to show however if you show things people don't want to see or do so poorly than they won't want to see it which is completely fair. Its fine to not like something but don't act like it shouldn't be allowed to exist or is wrong for existing. I mean I don't like rape or torture anymore than anybody else but I get why its being done in context and it makes complete sense and honestly I thought he handled it well. He didn't force it in peoples throats you only find out naturally if you find all the tapes. The tapes aren't supposed to be rewarding you with rape its rewarding you with a deeper understanding of the story. I do get how it makes people uncomfortable though and I can respect that hell it was the whole point just you need to look at things from outside your disgust and think about everything contextually.

 

[cikame]

I'm a huge advocate for creators of stories to have the freedom to write whatever they want, in order to have a problem with this story i'd have to believe that A. There are no bad people and that B. Those bad people wouldn't rape women.

Unfortunately neither of those are true. Here's a question though, does it make you hate the bad guys and want to exact some extreme justice on them?

 

[ColaWarVeteran]

This isn't new ground for Metal Gear. It's actually really old ground. Meryl was raped in MGS 1 (and discussed the pain and shame it caused her)

I admit it's been a long time since I played the first Metal Gear Solid but when is this ever mentioned? I don't remember Meryl saying she was raped or are you talking about when she was mind controlled by Psycho Mantis?

 

[Michael Legault]

Now this is only somewhat related to this in terms of MGS subject matter and it's seriousness... As far as I know every MGS except maybe 4 game has the threat of nukes going off is a constant threat. It seems to me at this point in the Western Nations at least that has become almost a campy plot device at best, at worst the butt of a joke. I know in Japan at least the real horrors of nuclear attacks are very muchly burned into the national psyche. That being said if you have seen how rape has been portrayed in Japanese media such as porn and even games where you play as the rapist! Considering that from what I've heard about the tapes they are not done in bad taste. MGS has always dealt with uncomfortable subject matter, torture, child soldiers, global censorship, human cloning, war for the sake of war, hell I play them non-lethal ever since the Sorrow fight where it took me a few tries to figure out the trick and I had killed many many enemies... I actually started to feel remorse, go figure!

Not really on topic but just some thoughts I wanted to get out there

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well I understand people are sensitive on such subjects, hell last time I came across a very explicit rape scene in a movie I couldn't even sleep normally. But these things do exist, they do happen for real, there has been a recent very disturbing documentary on women in the army... and inevitably this will also be a subject in games, because like it or not games are no longer a children's medium.
I will say however that they should put a fair warning on the game, and even more specifically on that tape in question, it's easily skippable for anyone not comfortable knowing the dirty details as long as they know in advance.

 

[Fsyco]

B) Listen to the end. Here's the thing, I should be upset at the end part more than anything else of the entire tape if I were offended (Which I'm not offended at the material written, I'm offended at where they decided to put it.), but here's the thing, I'm not. Although, yes it's casual sex between a woman and child, and yes, that is beyond fucked to a level of fucked up that I can't begin to describe in words. The reason why I'm not calling the lynch mob on that shit is because of what I said at the beginning. The extent of the torment on the two of these people has been so severe that they are now supporting each other and caring for one another in a romantic way. THAT'S HOW FAR THIS SHIT HAS GONE, THAT'S HOW FAR THEIR PSYCHE HAS BEEN RUINED AND PLUNGED INTO COMPLETE SHAMBLES. It's gone so far, that Paz, a twenty something year old woman is now romantically involved with Chico, a thirteen year old boy...

That wasn't the vibe I got at all from that. It seemed more like Paz was trying to make Chico feel better about the whole thing and make him feel less guilt. Unless I missed something, I didn't get any romance vibes from the conversations between Paz and Chico. Also, being made to rape somebody (presumably at gunpoint or under threat of intense physical pain) doesn't count as 'casual sex'.

Iunno, I think Kojima didn't handle it as badly as other people say. We never hear the actual rape, just the stuff immediately before and after, and the mind does the rest. And to his credit, rape is actually used as a form of torture, especially against women and children. Same goes for the bomb thing, really. It's both left to the imagination and based on actual tactics people use.

BUT if he has the right to put in these things, we as consumers have a right to not like it. I don't really mind it, but I can totally get why people are squicked out by it. Some people are just going to object to rape scenes on a matter of principle, which I suppose they have a right to do. Also, story-wise, this is clearly just the introduction. It's like if I Spit On Your Grave just ended at the rape scene, or if a slasher movie ended after the first kill. We don't get any sense of story arc, context, or cathartic release. I think people are more upset by the fact that Skullator gets away with it rather than the fact he does it in general.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Well, I replied to this during this morning. Here it is again:

I replied to his too already! Here it is again:

All I got from this is "a girl has a bomb in her vagina".

They never say it, they only imply it, and to be honest, this is equivalent to watching Apocalypse Now and saying "All I got from this is that Americans slaughtered innocent people for fun".

No, that's a given. The vagina bomb is a morbid, tasteless detail.

 

[TilMorrow]

Although this is going to sound fairly dick-ish I guess, but this sort of thing isn't out of place in the MGS games which has had many occurrences of torture, harassment, rape and other sickening things happen on-screen and off-screen to both genders. There was Volgin and his horrid sexual appetite that affected both his soldiers(MAjor Raikov [http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Ivan_Raidenovitch_Raikov]) and Eva and sick perchance for exploring different ways of torturing people to death as well as the training Sniper Wolf had to endure to be the best and sacrifices the Boss was forced to endure being amongst the many travesties that have happened in the MGS universe. I mean you only have to look at The Beauty and The Beast unit for more examples.

That isn't to say that it's good to see these things happening or learning what has happened to the characters of MGS but Kojima is doing a very good job writing what it'd be like for people in a world that seems to be in constant war and are directly involved. Also in no way are the tapes 'Easter Eggs', they are a central part of the story. Just as they were in Peace Walker.

On a separate note, PAZ IS STILL WITH THE MILITAIRES SANS FRONTIERES?!? I thought they got rid of her/she died after getting blown up in Metal Gear Zeke after she betrayed them! (PW) What is going on!

 

[The Crispy Tiger]

I'm a huge advocate for creators of stories to have the freedom to write whatever they want, in order to have a problem with this story i'd have to believe that A. There are no bad people and that B. Those bad people wouldn't rape women.

Unfortunately neither of those are true. Here's a question though, does it make you hate the bad guys and want to exact some extreme justice on them?

The answer is yes to both of those... So maybe it's purpose actually worked on me.

 

[The Crispy Tiger]

Although this is going to sound fairly dick-ish I guess, but this sort of thing isn't out of place in the MGS games which has had many occurrences of torture, harassment, rape and other sickening things happen on-screen and off-screen to both genders. There was Volgin and his horrid sexual appetite that affected both his soldiers(MAjor Raikov [http://metalgear.wikia.com/wiki/Ivan_Raidenovitch_Raikov]) and Eva and sick perchance for exploring different ways of torturing people to death as well as the training Sniper Wolf had to endure to be the best and sacrifices the Boss was forced to endure being amongst the many travesties that have happened in the MGS universe. I mean you only have to look at The Beauty and The Beast unit for more examples.

That isn't to say that it's good to see these things happening or learning what has happened to the characters of MGS but Kojima is doing a very good job writing what it'd be like for people in a world that seems to be in constant war and are directly involved. Also in no way are the tapes 'Easter Eggs', they are a central part of the story. Just as they were in Peace Walker.

On a separate note, PAZ IS STILL WITH THE MILITAIRES SANS FRONTIERES?!? I thought they got rid of her/she died after getting blown up in Metal Gear Zeke after she betrayed them! (PW) What is going on!

It turns out Paz was alive and had been kidnapped/tortured by Skull Face and XOF.

 

[The Crispy Tiger]

B) Listen to the end. Here's the thing, I should be upset at the end part more than anything else of the entire tape if I were offended (Which I'm not offended at the material written, I'm offended at where they decided to put it.), but here's the thing, I'm not. Although, yes it's casual sex between a woman and child, and yes, that is beyond fucked to a level of fucked up that I can't begin to describe in words. The reason why I'm not calling the lynch mob on that shit is because of what I said at the beginning. The extent of the torment on the two of these people has been so severe that they are now supporting each other and caring for one another in a romantic way. THAT'S HOW FAR THIS SHIT HAS GONE, THAT'S HOW FAR THEIR PSYCHE HAS BEEN RUINED AND PLUNGED INTO COMPLETE SHAMBLES. It's gone so far, that Paz, a twenty something year old woman is now romantically involved with Chico, a thirteen year old boy...

That wasn't the vibe I got at all from that. It seemed more like Paz was trying to make Chico feel better about the whole thing and make him feel less guilt. Unless I missed something, I didn't get any romance vibes from the conversations between Paz and Chico. Also, being made to rape somebody (presumably at gunpoint or under threat of intense physical pain) doesn't count as 'casual sex'.

Iunno, I think Kojima didn't handle it as badly as other people say. We never hear the actual rape, just the stuff immediately before and after, and the mind does the rest. And to his credit, rape is actually used as a form of torture, especially against women and children. Same goes for the bomb thing, really. It's both left to the imagination and based on actual tactics people use.



BUT if he has the right to put in these things, we as consumers have a right to not like it. I don't really mind it, but I can totally get why people are squicked out by it. Some people are just going to object to rape scenes on a matter of principle, which I suppose they have a right to do. Also, story-wise, this is clearly just the introduction. It's like if I Spit On Your Grave just ended at the rape scene, or if a slasher movie ended after the first kill. We don't get any sense of story arc, context, or cathartic release. I think people are more upset by the fact that Skullator gets away with it rather than the fact he does it in general.

SO.

1) They do have casual sex. Skip to 8:42, and it's STRONGLY implied in that moment after the tape was done, that Chico got laid.

2) Since this is the introduction, and the focus of the game isn't the torment that Chico/Paz went through, but instead on Snake's mission, I'm kinda fine with that. Especially since this is like Chapter One to a twelve chapter book and people are already asking to kill off the main villain. That's not how good writing works...

 

[Agente L]

Snake being tortured in every other game is alright. Having your eye REMOVED (during a torture session), beating a defenseless old man to death with lightning punches while inside a barrel, is also okay.

All from MGS games. But it's all alright, it seems.

But rape on women? How the dare do such a thing???

Come on guys. Look at yourselves. Why the sudden uproar simply because kojima decide to talk about rape, when there has been many things that are as bad or arguably worst?

Or are you telling me that having your eye cut off during a torture session is nowhere as bad as rape?

MGS always dealt with dark themes. Torture, mass manipulation, nuclear war, loss of freedom/forced control. They just throw whacky names and mystical powers so the game actually feels lighter and campy.

 

[Fsyco]

B) Listen to the end. Here's the thing, I should be upset at the end part more than anything else of the entire tape if I were offended (Which I'm not offended at the material written, I'm offended at where they decided to put it.), but here's the thing, I'm not. Although, yes it's casual sex between a woman and child, and yes, that is beyond fucked to a level of fucked up that I can't begin to describe in words. The reason why I'm not calling the lynch mob on that shit is because of what I said at the beginning. The extent of the torment on the two of these people has been so severe that they are now supporting each other and caring for one another in a romantic way. THAT'S HOW FAR THIS SHIT HAS GONE, THAT'S HOW FAR THEIR PSYCHE HAS BEEN RUINED AND PLUNGED INTO COMPLETE SHAMBLES. It's gone so far, that Paz, a twenty something year old woman is now romantically involved with Chico, a thirteen year old boy...

That wasn't the vibe I got at all from that. It seemed more like Paz was trying to make Chico feel better about the whole thing and make him feel less guilt. Unless I missed something, I didn't get any romance vibes from the conversations between Paz and Chico. Also, being made to rape somebody (presumably at gunpoint or under threat of intense physical pain) doesn't count as 'casual sex'.

Iunno, I think Kojima didn't handle it as badly as other people say. We never hear the actual rape, just the stuff immediately before and after, and the mind does the rest. And to his credit, rape is actually used as a form of torture, especially against women and children. Same goes for the bomb thing, really. It's both left to the imagination and based on actual tactics people use.



BUT if he has the right to put in these things, we as consumers have a right to not like it. I don't really mind it, but I can totally get why people are squicked out by it. Some people are just going to object to rape scenes on a matter of principle, which I suppose they have a right to do. Also, story-wise, this is clearly just the introduction. It's like if I Spit On Your Grave just ended at the rape scene, or if a slasher movie ended after the first kill. We don't get any sense of story arc, context, or cathartic release. I think people are more upset by the fact that Skullator gets away with it rather than the fact he does it in general.

SO.

1) They do have casual sex. Skip to 8:42, and it's STRONGLY implied in that moment after the tape was done, that Chico got laid.

2) Since this is the introduction, and the focus of the game isn't the torment that Chico/Paz went through, but instead on Snake's mission, I'm kinda fine with that. Especially since this is like Chapter One to a twelve chapter book and people are already asking to kill off the main villain. That's not how good writing works...

Is it? I got the impression he was turning down her advances. Must have missed that bit at the end. Still not getting a 'romance' vibe but a 'sex for comfort' vibe, which is plenty fucked up but a thing that people do. Not gonna lie, I kinda spaced out a little on my first listen because I was mostly bored and underwhelmed. This was not nearly as edgy or sickening as I was led to believe.

How does good writing work, then? You're supposed to hate the bad guy, right? I know Kojima has his faults as a writer, but this doesn't seem to be one of them. I think he's going for having the cathartic release of getting to off the bad guy, and establishing very early on how evil they are and making the player hate them. Otherwise you have the RAGE problem where you never see the bad guys do bad-guy things and are simply told that they're the bad guys. Maybe Kojima over-reached, though. He's always been a little weird with his female characters (but how much of that is him personally and how much is just Japan's cultural taste is hard to discern; IE, Other M's Samus was made to appeal to Japanese gamers), and maybe he could have had this come across better with just the bomb thing. Or maybe non-rape torture. Rape is notably riskier than say, just electrocuting somebody, from both the torturer's standpoint and the writer's.

 

[Kopikatsu]

beating a defenseless old man to death with lightning punches while inside a barrel, is also okay.

Do you mean Sokolov? 'cause Sokolov survived Volgin's torture.

This isn't new ground for Metal Gear. It's actually really old ground. Meryl was raped in MGS 1 (and discussed the pain and shame it caused her)

I admit it's been a long time since I played the first Metal Gear Solid but when is this ever mentioned? I don't remember Meryl saying she was raped or are you talking about when she was mind controlled by Psycho Mantis?

Near the end of the game.

Meryl: I didn't give in to the torture.
Snake: Torture?
Meryl: And things even worse than that. But through all the pain and the shame, I held onto hope.

SO.

1) They do have casual sex. Skip to 8:42, and it's STRONGLY implied in that moment after the tape was done, that Chico got laid.

Well. It's not really 'casual'...

Chico had been in love with Paz in Peace Walker, back when she was pretending to be a peace loving schoolgirl. So that was probably her way of comforting him or whatever.

 

[Fsyco]

beating a defenseless old man to death with lightning punches while inside a barrel, is also okay.

Do you mean Sokolov? 'cause Sokolov survived Volgin's torture.

I think that's referring to Granin. Granin died from being punched in a barrel by Volgin.

SO.

1) They do have casual sex. Skip to 8:42, and it's STRONGLY implied in that moment after the tape was done, that Chico got laid.

Well. It's not really 'casual'...

Chico had been in love with Paz in Peace Walker, back when she was pretending to be a peace loving schoolgirl. So that was probably her way of comforting him or whatever.

Yes, this. That wasn't just "hey let's bone for a larf and a harf". Paz was trying to do what she thought would make Chico feel better.

 

[Agente L]

-snip-

You should spoiler that. Also, I'm talking about Granin. But thanks for reminding another old defenseless man who was tortured.

 

[lord canti]

So why did no one get riled up about Eva constantly getting tortured and molested in mgs3? Why did no one complain that the boss had her baby cut out of her leaving a horrible scar all so she could continue fighting? The metal gear series has never shied away from torture even if it's women. Also, course it's overly gory this wasnt a plan surgery, this was a quick lets cut her open and get the bomb out. The whole scene was meant to give Snake some one who already has sever issues the middle finger.