Microsoft Looks to Kinect to Extend 360 Lifespan

funkzillabot

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Microsoft are you mad? NEVER do ANYTHING to "extend the life of..." the second that you do that, it's over (Sega). When the newest games have to come on 3 to 4 discs, it's time to move on. Disc swopping is really annoying. WE all expect to see the next Xbox in 2 years, not 5.
 

Treblaine

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While i DO expect to still be playing my Xbox 360or PS3 in 2015, with new quality games, I do NOT expect it to be the newest and most advanced console that far into the future.

only 6 years after the PS2 came out, the PS3 was released. Then again, the PS3 was clearly rushed, it was overpriced and didn't see a European release till Early 2007, it seemed to be as much a response to Microsoft's Xbox that was a relative surprise.

Well, if Microsoft and Sony DO insist on holding off any new console till the middle of this decade - Nintendo also seem very comfortable with their position, with no apparent enthusiasm to release a Wii HD - I predict many profound results:

-this could leave an opening for a 4th company to step in with a new and more powerful system, enter at just the right time they could knock one of the others out.
-PC gaming will likely get a leg up, continuously advancing tech and increasingly sophisticated and expansive services like Steam
-Decline in hardcore console gaming, if BOTH Microsoft and Sony go serious with their casual motion.
 

Tarakos

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Couldn't care less about Kinect, but I want it to work out. Look, I don't want to have to buy a brand-new console after I bought the 360 3 years ago. I'm in no hurry for bigger, better graphics; not that they could possibly improve by much more.
 

Buizel91

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Aug 25, 2008
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addeB said:
5 years seems to be a bit to long, I would like a "improvement" in about 3 years from now.
well a new model 360 has come out, so they probably just upgrade the system again.
 

Kapol

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May 2, 2010
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I read this as 'We don't want to develop another system for 5 more years.' That isn't bad, mind you. I don't want another system to buy anytime soon.
 

Wicky_42

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Treblaine said:
Well, if Microsoft and Sony DO insist on holding off any new console till the middle of this decade - Nintendo also seem very comfortable with their position, with no apparent enthusiasm to release a Wii HD - I predict many profound results:

-this could leave an opening for a 4th company to step in with a new and more powerful system, enter at just the right time they could knock one of the others out.
-PC gaming will likely get a leg up, continuously advancing tech and increasingly sophisticated and expansive services like Steam
-Decline in hardcore console gaming, if BOTH Microsoft and Sony go serious with their casual motion.
1) I think the market's saturated with consoles as is, and trying to launch a new one considering the cost to develop for yet another platform vs the risks of developing an exclusive for a console that's going to see only a minority uptake would just not be an attractive proposition for anyone.
2) That would be really nice - games made for the PC, rather than everything being multiplatform, a bit more complexity. However, it's much more likely that devs would rather develop for the consoles: single hardware setup, very large customer base, familiarity with hardware.
3) A possibility, but considering the amount of cash MW2 made on the consoles, I can't see the 'hardcore' devs turning away from that market. They are too invested, and have a strong market presence with console owners already.
 

Treblaine

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Wicky_42 said:
Treblaine said:
Well, if Microsoft and Sony DO insist on holding off any new console till the middle of this decade - Nintendo also seem very comfortable with their position, with no apparent enthusiasm to release a Wii HD - I predict many profound results:

-this could leave an opening for a 4th company to step in with a new and more powerful system, enter at just the right time they could knock one of the others out.
-PC gaming will likely get a leg up, continuously advancing tech and increasingly sophisticated and expansive services like Steam
-Decline in hardcore console gaming, if BOTH Microsoft and Sony go serious with their casual motion.
1) I think the market's saturated with consoles as is, and trying to launch a new one considering the cost to develop for yet another platform vs the risks of developing an exclusive for a console that's going to see only a minority uptake would just not be an attractive proposition for anyone.
2) That would be really nice - games made for the PC, rather than everything being multiplatform, a bit more complexity. However, it's much more likely that devs would rather develop for the consoles: single hardware setup, very large customer base, familiarity with hardware.
3) A possibility, but considering the amount of cash MW2 made on the consoles, I can't see the 'hardcore' devs turning away from that market. They are too invested, and have a strong market presence with console owners already.
Well, Developers may not turn away, but Developers don't make the choices, they don't control the money, it is the Publishers like Activision and Ubisoft that have the money! They have the money, why spend $100 million making another Modern Warfare 2 when you could spend a fraction of that on a casual title and could sell even more. Plus, these hardcore developers are not loyal stooges as Kotick learned as he pushed Infinity Ward too far.

Interesting this is, Modern Warfare 2 is not the biggest selling video game of all time.* The top sellers of all time are dominated by the likes of Wii Fit, Wii Play and Wii Sports Resort...

(*I know you never claimed it was the biggest, my point is Publishers follow the BIGGEST fish.)

"devs would rather develop for the consoles: single hardware setup,"

But is it a single setup? Ps3 and Xbox 360 have a surprisingly even split and they are VERY different from each other with huge strengths and weaknesses in different areas. Developers really do have to code for the same game twice (good thing about this is you get a PC version "for free"). If they want the largest user base they won't develop for PS3 + 360, they'll develop for the Wii!

The thing is on PC, the power of each system may vary but they all stick to the same standards, PC developers DO NOT have to make games for a billion different hardware combinations as PCs conforms to agreed hardware standards. Adding more shaders just means it runs faster.

Wii has outsold more than Xbox 360 and PS3 COMBINED, now they are both investing in bloody casual oriented peripherals. I'd be worried about the future of console gaming.
 

Wicky_42

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Treblaine said:
Wicky_42 said:
Treblaine said:
Well, if Microsoft and Sony DO insist on holding off any new console till the middle of this decade - Nintendo also seem very comfortable with their position, with no apparent enthusiasm to release a Wii HD - I predict many profound results:

-this could leave an opening for a 4th company to step in with a new and more powerful system, enter at just the right time they could knock one of the others out.
-PC gaming will likely get a leg up, continuously advancing tech and increasingly sophisticated and expansive services like Steam
-Decline in hardcore console gaming, if BOTH Microsoft and Sony go serious with their casual motion.
1) I think the market's saturated with consoles as is, and trying to launch a new one considering the cost to develop for yet another platform vs the risks of developing an exclusive for a console that's going to see only a minority uptake would just not be an attractive proposition for anyone.
2) That would be really nice - games made for the PC, rather than everything being multiplatform, a bit more complexity. However, it's much more likely that devs would rather develop for the consoles: single hardware setup, very large customer base, familiarity with hardware.
3) A possibility, but considering the amount of cash MW2 made on the consoles, I can't see the 'hardcore' devs turning away from that market. They are too invested, and have a strong market presence with console owners already.

Well, Developers may not turn away, but Developers don't make the choices, they don't control the money, it is the Publishers like Activision and Ubisoft that have the money! They have the money, why spend $100 million making another Modern Warfare 2 when you could spend a fraction of that on a casual title and could sell even more. Plus, these hardcore developers are not loyal stooges as Kotick learned as he pushed Infinity Ward too far.

Interesting this is, Modern Warfare 2 is not the biggest selling video game of all time.* The top sellers of all time are dominated by the likes of Wii Fit, Wii Play and Wii Sports Resort...

(*I know you never claimed it was the biggest, my point is Publishers follow the BIGGEST fish.)

"devs would rather develop for the consoles: single hardware setup,"

But is it a single setup? Ps3 and Xbox 360 have a surprisingly even split and they are VERY different from each other with huge strengths and weaknesses in different areas. Developers really do have to code for the same game twice (good thing about this is you get a PC version "for free"). If they want the largest user base they won't develop for PS3 + 360, they'll develop for the Wii!

The thing is on PC, the power of each system may vary but they all stick to the same standards, PC developers DO NOT have to make games for a billion different hardware combinations as PCs conforms to agreed hardware standards. Adding more shaders just means it runs faster.

Wii has outsold more than Xbox 360 and PS3 COMBINED, now they are both investing in bloody casual oriented peripherals. I'd be worried about the future of console gaming.
[Oops, early post, my bad]

You make some good points, and I'm sure that publishers are eyeing the Wii's success with envy. The expansion of motion controls to their systems of choice is obviously going to make them happier as they'll feel that now they can get a slice of the casual pie as well.

However, none of that opens the market up for a console from a new player (one of the points I was addressing). What it does open up is for the Wii 2 to be comfortably more powerful than either of the others' consoles and to have the support of the largest market share. Nintendo's had the time an opportunity to learn and improve from their motion control experience, so their second iteration has even more potential than Sony and Microsoft's first goes.

This may have been Nintendo's aim all along - this article [http://malstrom.50webs.com/birdman.html] makes for some interesting reading.
 

Treblaine

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Jul 25, 2008
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Wicky_42 said:
[Oops, early post, my bad]

You make some good points, and I'm sure that publishers are eyeing the Wii's success with envy. The expansion of motion controls to their systems of choice is obviously going to make them happier as they'll feel that now they can get a slice of the casual pie as well.

However, none of that opens the market up for a console from a new player (one of the points I was addressing). What it does open up is for the Wii 2 to be comfortably more powerful than either of the others' consoles and to have the support of the largest market share. Nintendo's had the time an opportunity to learn and improve from their motion control experience, so their second iteration has even more potential than Sony and Microsoft's first goes.

This may have been Nintendo's aim all along - this article [http://malstrom.50webs.com/birdman.html] makes for some interesting reading.
Thanks for that link, though it was a long one I wanted to read it all before I replied.

malestrom has made a masterful point, that the name "casual" is just an inaccurate euphemism* for a well understood aspect of marketing known for decades: the continuous trend from "downmarket" to "upmarket".

Casual =/= passionless
Casual = more downmarket = more accessible, appeal to wider audience,

I will be more careful to call games out as downmarket or upmarket and key here is recognising these are not discrete categories but part of a continuous spectrum (More or less up-or-down-market).

He apparently wrote the article in 2008, but Move and Kinect perfectly fit with his predictions, that Sony/Microsoft are starting upmarket and working their way downmarket.

Malestrom makes many really interesting points:
-that what we call "casual" today was the bread-and-butter of gaming in the past, how console gaming's natural progression has moved it upmarket
-Pre-Wii (early as 2003) the biggest "casual" market was flash based websites, on Web-browsers, on PC. And it was BIG and is still big with Farmville being the most insidious today. "casual" is not a new phenomenon, it has always been there, not silent, just ignored because it was on the unusual web-based ad-funded model.

So where does this leave us, the gamers, with Microsoft's Kinect, and Sony's Move, and E3 2010, with not even a hint of a new generation of consoles. I'm starting to realise how profound what Nintendo's strategy is, how it could change EVERYTHING and be as significant as 1982.

Let me say, that link leads to a long ass article but PEOPLE MUST READ IT!!!

My god, it's like Soylent green is people, I am legend, rosebud was his sled, he was Kyzer Soze... Nintendo isn't "pulling a casual"... THEY ARE USING A DISRUPTIVE STRATEGY!! The oldest trick in the book, they're breaking the rules to make their own.

In a nutshell, Malestom suggest that Nintendo has the strategy of starting downmarket, appeal to EVERYONE, key thing is NOT to have advanced graphics, not to intimidate them.

Step1: Gateway games: the detested Wii Fit and such like, these you can sell to anyone and get them "hooked" like a gateway drug
Step2: Bridge games: different from gateway games, these are for people who are hooked to move them upstream to more advanced games like Mario Kart Wii... I mean that fucking wheel... my god, the evil genius of it, it's beginning to sink in!
Step 3: cripple with an upmarket surge, with Zelda: Skyward Sword and 3DS
Step 4: A new more powerful Home console, building on their new audience, deliver the coup de grace

Result: All gasp in awe as Nintendo dominates so badly we all wonder what happened.

Basically, Sony and Microsoft are fucked - or their console gaming division at least. Nintendo has a plan and it is foolproof, not even these new motion peripherals will change that (Where will PC gaming fit into this? It has survived this far?)

Because all they are doing is thinking like the "birdmen" who thought they could fly if they just stuck bird's feathers on their arms and flapped real hard, they are just copying what birds appear to have, not the actual dynamics of flight. The analogy from Professor Christensen; "Innovator?s Dilemma".

I repeat: READ THIS ARTICLE PEOPLE!

http://malstrom.50webs.com/birdman.html

first paragraph:

Centuries ago, men attempted to fly by putting wings on their arms and flapping really hard. Logically, in their minds, it should have worked. Birds fly. Birds have wings. Therefore, having wings should mean man will fly.

The gentlemen, puffed with pride, failed every time. Had they examined the nature of flight, as opposed to the nature of birds, they would have realized the concept of lift (as Bernoulli did). One must examine the physics of the flight rather than putting feathers on one?s arms in imitation of birds. The descendants of these birdmen are with us today. In the gaming industry, they represent some of the highest gaming executives and esteemed analysts.

Nintendo is flying high. Rather than examine the nature of this flight, the birdmen are mesmerized by the feathers. The analysts and executives do not see the concepts of disruption and don?t even understand the Blue Ocean principles (though they think they do). The feathers they see on Nintendo?s ascent are casual games. Therefore, they surmise, if they make casual games then they will be flying high with Nintendo...
 

Wicky_42

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Sep 15, 2008
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Treblaine said:
Wicky_42 said:
[Oops, early post, my bad]

You make some good points, and I'm sure that publishers are eyeing the Wii's success with envy. The expansion of motion controls to their systems of choice is obviously going to make them happier as they'll feel that now they can get a slice of the casual pie as well.

However, none of that opens the market up for a console from a new player (one of the points I was addressing). What it does open up is for the Wii 2 to be comfortably more powerful than either of the others' consoles and to have the support of the largest market share. Nintendo's had the time an opportunity to learn and improve from their motion control experience, so their second iteration has even more potential than Sony and Microsoft's first goes.

This may have been Nintendo's aim all along - this article [http://malstrom.50webs.com/birdman.html] makes for some interesting reading.
Thanks for that link, though it was a long one I wanted to read it all before I replied.

malestrom has made a masterful point, that the name "casual" is just an inaccurate euphemism* for a well understood aspect of marketing known for decades: the continuous trend from "downmarket" to "upmarket".

Casual =/= passionless
Casual = more downmarket = more accessible, appeal to wider audience,

I will be more careful to call games out as downmarket or upmarket and key here is recognising these are not discrete categories but part of a continuous spectrum (More or less up-or-down-market).

He apparently wrote the article in 2008, but Move and Kinect perfectly fit with his predictions, that Sony/Microsoft are starting upmarket and working their way downmarket.

Malestrom makes many really interesting points:
-that what we call "casual" today was the bread-and-butter of gaming in the past, how console gaming's natural progression has moved it upmarket
-Pre-Wii (early as 2003) the biggest "casual" market was flash based websites, on Web-browsers, on PC. And it was BIG and is still big with Farmville being the most insidious today. "casual" is not a new phenomenon, it has always been there, not silent, just ignored because it was on the unusual web-based ad-funded model.

So where does this leave us, the gamers, with Microsoft's Kinect, and Sony's Move, and E3 2010, with not even a hint of a new generation of consoles. I'm starting to realise how profound what Nintendo's strategy is, how it could change EVERYTHING and be as significant as 1982.

Let me say, that link leads to a long ass article but PEOPLE MUST READ IT!!!

My god, it's like Soylent green is people, I am legend, rosebud was his sled, he was Kyzer Soze... Nintendo isn't "pulling a casual"... THEY ARE USING A DISRUPTIVE STRATEGY!! The oldest trick in the book, they're breaking the rules to make their own.

In a nutshell, Malestom suggest that Nintendo has the strategy of starting downmarket, appeal to EVERYONE, key thing is NOT to have advanced graphics, not to intimidate them.

Step1: Gateway games: the detested Wii Fit and such like, these you can sell to anyone and get them "hooked" like a gateway drug
Step2: Bridge games: different from gateway games, these are for people who are hooked to move them upstream to more advanced games like Mario Kart Wii... I mean that fucking wheel... my god, the evil genius of it, it's beginning to sink in!
Step 3: cripple with an upmarket surge, with Zelda: Skyward Sword and 3DS
Step 4: A new more powerful Home console, building on their new audience, deliver the coup de grace

Result: All gasp in awe as Nintendo dominates so badly we all wonder what happened.

Basically, Sony and Microsoft are fucked - or their console gaming division at least. Nintendo has a plan and it is foolproof, not even these new motion peripherals will change that (Where will PC gaming fit into this? It has survived this far?)

Because all they are doing is thinking like the "birdmen" who thought they could fly if they just stuck bird's feathers on their arms and flapped real hard, they are just copying what birds appear to have, not the actual dynamics of flight. The analogy from Professor Christensen; "Innovator?s Dilemma".

I repeat: READ THIS ARTICLE PEOPLE!

http://malstrom.50webs.com/birdman.html

first paragraph:

Centuries ago, men attempted to fly by putting wings on their arms and flapping really hard. Logically, in their minds, it should have worked. Birds fly. Birds have wings. Therefore, having wings should mean man will fly.

The gentlemen, puffed with pride, failed every time. Had they examined the nature of flight, as opposed to the nature of birds, they would have realized the concept of lift (as Bernoulli did). One must examine the physics of the flight rather than putting feathers on one?s arms in imitation of birds. The descendants of these birdmen are with us today. In the gaming industry, they represent some of the highest gaming executives and esteemed analysts.

Nintendo is flying high. Rather than examine the nature of this flight, the birdmen are mesmerized by the feathers. The analysts and executives do not see the concepts of disruption and don?t even understand the Blue Ocean principles (though they think they do). The feathers they see on Nintendo?s ascent are casual games. Therefore, they surmise, if they make casual games then they will be flying high with Nintendo...

Incredibly eye-opening, no? It's certainly a persuasive analysis that I can't put holes in. The only problem is that I don't think Nintendo really plans to create the sort of 'upmarket' games that we are used to.

Then again, Sony and Microsoft's uptake of motion controls may encourage the big-name devs/publishers to re-evaluate the Wii and bring some of the more standard fare to that table.

As for the PC, it'll just keep on trucking :D (I hope ;) the great thing about the PC is that its versatility and dominance of the market makes these sort of rivalries nigh impossible. Sure, monopolies suck, but a stable, versatile platform that does business and pleasure is a safe bet imo.
 

dochmbi

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It's interesting to see what NVIDIA and ATI think about this, because currently most PC games are also on consoles and are thus developed with the graphical limitations of the consoles in mind and as such there is very little graphical development happening on the PC.
I'm a somewhat of a hardware enthusiast myself and I love fancy graphics, but I'm also kind of glad to see this generation last longer because it means I won't have to upgrade my PC until many years.
 

Treblaine

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dochmbi said:
It's interesting to see what NVIDIA and ATI think about this, because currently most PC games are also on consoles and are thus developed with the graphical limitations of the consoles in mind and as such there is very little graphical development happening on the PC.
I'm a somewhat of a hardware enthusiast myself and I love fancy graphics, but I'm also kind of glad to see this generation last longer because it means I won't have to upgrade my PC until many years.
They should take solace in the likes of Just Cause 2, released as DirectX 10 or 11 only it REALLY pushed the capabilities of PC, beyond what consoles offer. And you can always have higher resolution and higher frame-rates.
 

Squilookle

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Nov 6, 2008
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"blah blah blah blah 360 lifespan extended by 5 years."

This pleases me. Every console should have a 10 year lifespan...
 

Tarakos

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Well my 360 is 2 and a half years old, so I'd like not to have to buy a new console for another 5 years. The grim reality however, is that Kinect will fail. Sure, it'll bring in some casual gamers, but the 360's core demographic clearly doesn't give a toss now, so they never will. I see no way that Kinect could be used to augment games like Halo or Gears, the heavy hitters on the console, and those are the kind of games Microsoft should be considering at the end of the day, not River Rush, or whatever they call that piece of shovelware.
 

gl1koz3

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They can easily release a new XBOX powerful enough to emulate the 360 now. If not, then definitely in just a few years. Kinect is an another, right now useless, toy for kids.
 

Mr. Omega

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Jul 1, 2010
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I think the whole '5 year' thing will depend on how this is handled. If they go with the idea of having casual on one side, and keep the controler with hardcore games on the other, they moght be able to do it. If they start to force Kinect down hardcore gamers' throats, like making the next Halo compatible ONLY with Kinect, then not only will it not make it to the '5 year' mark, it might even kill the system EVEN FASTER!

http://malstrom.50webs.com/birdman.html

Treblaine said:
Wicky_42 said:
My god, it's like Soylent green is people, I am legend, rosebud was his sled, he was Kyzer Soze... Nintendo isn't "pulling a casual"... THEY ARE USING A DISRUPTIVE STRATEGY!! The oldest trick in the book, they're breaking the rules to make their own.

In a nutshell, Malestom suggest that Nintendo has the strategy of starting downmarket, appeal to EVERYONE, key thing is NOT to have advanced graphics, not to intimidate them.

Step1: Gateway games: the detested Wii Fit and such like, these you can sell to anyone and get them "hooked" like a gateway drug
Step2: Bridge games: different from gateway games, these are for people who are hooked to move them upstream to more advanced games like Mario Kart Wii... I mean that fucking wheel... my god, the evil genius of it, it's beginning to sink in!
Step 3: cripple with an upmarket surge, with Zelda: Skyward Sword and 3DS
Step 4: A new more powerful Home console, building on their new audience, deliver the coup de grace

Result: All gasp in awe as Nintendo dominates so badly we all wonder what happened.
On the topic of the 'Nintendo-guys-are-evil-genuises' theory, once they announced Natal last year, I was preaching this to everyone at my school, but they said I was mad! Well, whose crazy now, hm? WHOSE MAD NOW? I might think the Wii has become 'meh at best, except first party games' but if Nintendo realy is full of evil masterminds, the next console should drop the whole gimmick, and be back to the hardcore crowd!

Or, they might just screw it up and keep trying to shove motion controls down our throats. but even then, if they refine it, they still could go through with the evil plan.
 

GloatingSwine

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Stabby Joe said:
Andy Chalk said:
Microsoft says the launch of Kinect and the redesigned Xbox 360 will help ensure that the console will be around for "at least another five years."
Five years of half baked party games?
Worked for Nintendo.

Anti-Robot Man said:
The nextgen consoles will come out 2012-2013. They're all pretending they're going to try to last 10 years so they can beat the competition to market. SEGA recognised this which is why they're taking another stab at developing a console.
I'd say that 2012-2013 sounds about right, but they'll support the 360 and PS3 for a couple of years after that, so the current consoles will be "alive" for 10+ years, but some of that time they'll be sharing with a new model.
 

spartan231490

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kinnect is a worthless gimmick, but im glad i don't have to go buy the xbox 540 just so i can play the new games.
 

Stabby Joe

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GloatingSwine said:
Stabby Joe said:
Andy Chalk said:
Microsoft says the launch of Kinect and the redesigned Xbox 360 will help ensure that the console will be around for "at least another five years."
Five years of half baked party games?
Worked for Nintendo.
So much they're now investing more is actual games once again...