Microsoft Sued Over Xbox Live Double-Billing

[mjc0961]

And now, for those looking to avoid similar situations, here's a helpful note from Major Nelson! [http://majornelson.com/2009/07/29/how-to-turn-off-xbox-live-account-auto-renewal/]

Not as helpful as you'd think. That doesn't work anymore. I don't know when they got rid of that, but they did. Calling support is your only option now.

I'm all for actually reading the Terms of Use before you just throw money in (it sounds like that part about only agreeing to let them charge that one card is not what he actually agreed to; plus "canceling" by just letting your credit card expire rather than actually canceling is always an incredibly dumb thing to do), but I hope this guy at least gets enough press to get MS to bring the option back and not make it such a pain.

 

[Asuka Soryu]

Hate to sound like a Sony fanboy, but glad I use my PS3 for online. ~.~ I'd be pissed off if I had to pay twice.

 

[pneuma08]

The auto renewal clause it tied to your account and not the origional source of payment.

This is not entirely correct, and needs explanation:

When you create a billing account, you enter your payment method. You must be authorized to use the payment method. You authorize us to charge you for the Service and for any paid feature of the Service that you or the user of any associated account choose to use while this contract is in force using your payment method.

(Emphasis mine.)

He only gave authorization to use a specific payment method. This payment method is not tied to any sort of account beyond the "billing account" established in the Terms of Use.

If Microsoft has a defense, it probably comes from these lines:

Once we have informed you that the Service will be provided indefinitely or automatically renewed, we may automatically renew your Service and charge you for any renewal term in accordance with the subscription offer terms we present to you prior to your payment for the Service which terms may be updated upon written notice (including email) to you.

and

Our cancellation of the Service will not alter your obligation to pay all charges made to your billing account.

So what happened is that they bill him, he does not pay. They cancel, and he still is stuck with the bill, but no service. Once he establishes a new authorized payment method, they retroactively bill him for his obligated year service that he was charged for.

IMO, this is bull, and a very stupid reason to go to court. Microsoft has everything to lose here, and the best they can gain is making some guy lose a few thousand dollars of court costs. They deserve all the bad PR this dregs up.

 

[Roboto]

It's not foggy until "since Graves only gave Microsoft consent to charge the expired debit card, not the new one."

There are credit laws out there that prevent this, so he should have a case.

 

[Royas]

I had an issue with this - my credit card had expired, so I was issued a new one. Typically, when this happens, everything but the expiration date is exactly the same, but companies are FORCED to stop using the outdated one till you punch in the new information.

Microsoft hasnt done this, and has charged me for months of service that it legally should not have. Were do I get in on this suing action?

Contact your credit card provider and dispute the charges. You might (I'd call it a good chance) get them to apply a charge back. If that doesn't work, and MS continues to charge you, report the card lost or stolen. Then you'll get a new card with new numbers, leaving MS high and dry.

 

[RollForInitiative]

They've actually charged my expired cards on several occasions before as well. Fortunately, it worked in my favor.

 

[robert01]

After reading all the comments a few people have made a lot of sense regarding the Terms of Use. The stated that he would not have renewed if he knew they were going to charge him for a renewal, he is asking for his new subscription to be refunded, not the renewal. He should have been refunded. Also auto-renewal policies do have some conditions and certain things are frowned upon. I don't have and XB, but is there an option to opt out of the auto renewal without calling? If not this will look bad on Microsoft.

http://venturebeat.com/2011/04/18/ask-the-attorney-the-auto-renewal-conundrum/
Has some good information regarding this, and from my very minor legal understanding, MS does appear to be in the wrong.

 

[The Random One]

I'm glad to see people aren't saying this is just another lawyer-happy crazy American. This is totally legitimate, and Microsoft (as well as several other game companies) need to be more friendly with the way they charge for services.

 

[HerbertTheHamster]

Why the flying fuck don't they just hand him 100$ and tell him to piss off?

what dipshit CEO wants to go to court for so little?

 

[Gralian]

It's like watching David and Goliath, only this time, David said 'oh fuck it' and whipped out a rocket launcher instead of a slingshot.

Go David.

 

[Racecarlock]

Why is it that scamming is legal in the games industry? We have shit like this, and also DRM on PC games (this is from a console gamer BTW) that apparently (Have not actually encountered it yet) make it so that if either your or their connection goes down, you can't play the game. You know, because we're totally happy with paying for items we don't get, that's not a scam at all! I mean, I get protecting games from pirates, but DRM is not doing that whatsoever. So it's a scam. You pay for something you don't get or get taken away at some point because they feel like it, it's a scam. From where I am from, scamming is illegal, you get put in jail for it. But since they put in some legal bullshit contract that you apparently agreed to when buying a game, it's entirely legal. That's bullshit. If they're going to do this, reduce the fucking price and call it a rental, because you clearly don't have the full version if they can still take it away from you or you get locked out if either side loses internet. Why do you guys put up with this? Are you just suckers or what?

 

[Epona]

Why is it that scamming is legal in the games industry? We have shit like this, and also DRM on PC games (this is from a console gamer BTW) that apparently (Have not actually encountered it yet) make it so that if either your or their connection goes down, you can't play the game. You know, because we're totally happy with paying for items we don't get, that's not a scam at all! I mean, I get protecting games from pirates, but DRM is not doing that whatsoever. So it's a scam. You pay for something you don't get or get taken away at some point because they feel like it, it's a scam. From where I am from, scamming is illegal, you get put in jail for it. But since they put in some legal bullshit contract that you apparently agreed to when buying a game, it's entirely legal. That's bullshit. If they're going to do this, reduce the fucking price and call it a rental, because you clearly don't have the full version if they can still take it away from you or you get locked out if either side loses internet. Why do you guys put up with this? Are you just suckers or what?

These scams will eventually destroy the industry. People are getting pretty sick of the way the game industry treats consumers. Gamers provided the industry with loads and loads of support and the game industry responds by making it harder for paying customers to use what they paid for.


If it's a rental, isn't it a scam to ask people to buy it at full price?

 

[Uber Waddles]

I had an issue with this - my credit card had expired, so I was issued a new one. Typically, when this happens, everything but the expiration date is exactly the same, but companies are FORCED to stop using the outdated one till you punch in the new information.

Microsoft hasnt done this, and has charged me for months of service that it legally should not have. Were do I get in on this suing action?

Contact your credit card provider and dispute the charges. You might (I'd call it a good chance) get them to apply a charge back. If that doesn't work, and MS continues to charge you, report the card lost or stolen. Then you'll get a new card with new numbers, leaving MS high and dry.

To be honest, I recently found out how to remove my credit card from the Xbox itself.

It was a pain in the fucking ass, but it worked. So they won't be charging me anymore. Although I would LOVE to get that cash back

 

[Danpascooch]

While Microsoft does indeed have an Auto-renew clause. It shouldn't apply to the new debit card. That is very odd. What is odd to me is that Microsoft would rather have this guy sue then just refund the $50. Seems like a manager would have just went "it's not worth it". Have a feeling that's what will happen eventually.

I think it's a completely justified lawsuit, not because this guy deserves anything but his $50 back, but because Microsoft needs to face some punitive measures for what is very clearly bullshit of the highest order.

 

[Danpascooch]

Why the flying fuck don't they just hand him 100$ and tell him to piss off?

what dipshit CEO wants to go to court for so little?

It may not be so simple, the guy could be telling Microsoft to stick it up their ass and is now suing for punitive damages, I know I would be, just so they don't try to pull this shit again.

 

[BabyRaptor]

Being too lazy to read the paperwork you're signing DOES NOT excuse you from the consequences. Christ, people these days.

 

[Tich]

I don't get this problem, I buy Gold Subscrition cards from the store, all you get is emails from Microsoft begging you to renew. And I don't think it costs me more anyway.

 

[No_Remainders]

Suddenly me buying the gold cards instead of using debit or credit cards doesn't seem so dumb now eh?

This.

Considering you can get the gold cards cheaper than paying via credit/debit card, I kinda like buying them instead.

 

[JMan]

Microsoft has also done me wrong with the automatic renewal. I use my debit card to pay for Xbox Live for me and my two nephews accounts. I asked them to remove the automatic renewal on all three accounts multiple times but they never will and continue to charge me every month to renew it even though I have told them not to.

 

[Stealthygamer]

And this is why i use pre-paid cards